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While Invisibility isn't a guarantee, it's certainly not hard to make a list that has a very good chance of getting it, and isn't too crippled by the lack of it.

For instance -- two Farseers, the traditional psyker component of the Jetseer Council, have the same chances of getting Invisibility as they do Fortune. The chances of getting at least one Invisibility if you roll all on Telepathy are, if I'm doing the math correctly, 1-(5/6*4/6*3/6)^2 == ~93%. Note that that's actually better than the previous edition, because if you make the decision to go all in on a discipline, you get the primaris for free, meaning you have only 6 powers to roll on instead of 7. Tigurius also has the same chance I think, given that rerolls to choosing powers is the same as having two psykers (again if my math is correct).

I can see Eldar Deathstars completely forgoing Runes of Fate to roll entirely on Telepathy. You miss Fortune, but Invisibility gives you good defenses as well (worse against regular shots, but better against barrage sniping), and you didn't need Guide on either Beastpack or Jetseer Council. Probably the way they'll go is to roll on Telepathy until they hit Invisibility, and then either keep going to get Psychic Shriek for free, or then shift to Divination to still get Prescience.

And remember, this is without adding any additional psykers in to further buff your chances. You could also run an Iyanden Shadow Council of 3-5 Spiritseers, each of which gets two rolls on Telepathy + Primaris if you Focus. Daemons can just guarantee it with Be'Lakor, or bringing a few Heavy Support Daemon Princes to try nornally.


tl;dr Invisibility is easy enough to get that you can indeed plan an army around abusing it.

 Dakkamite wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Remember too that you're not ruling out 83% of shots. The unit is supposed to be invisible. You shouldn't be able to fire at it at all. But THAT would be broken and complained about to high holy hell.

Then it should cost more warp charges. Waaay more.

It isn't easy to fish for invis and getting powers off is much harder than before.

If the balancing aspect of a power is "you won't get it much" its essentially saying "just be prepared to forfeit those games when your opponent gets it". IE, its gak game balance and frankly hoping they don't get it isn't good enough as a counter.

Plus, Tigurius has a pretty good chance of getting it (almost certain with three rolls and his reroll ability) and Be'lakor gets it right off the bat, no BS needed.

Tigurius is ultimately, little more than a space marine with a fairly unimpressive statline, and if he goes for Telepathy he's not going for Biomancy to make himself into a combat monster.

Be'Lakor on the other hand is most decidedly not just a psyker.

Two Farseers can also be pretty sure of getting invisibility if they really want it.

Also, in GK all Grand Masters, Brother-Captains, Librarians, Draigo, Coteaz and even the lowly and easily spammable Psyker have access to rolling on Telepathy. Nobody wants to put up with invisible Draigo-wing shenanigans. This power is beyond broken.

Is invisability broken...?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Yes /thread

I second...

Better nerf fortune and 2+ combo as well as grimoire/cursed earth. Where does it end?

Deathstars were beatable in 6th and moreso in 7th due to objective secured.

 LValx wrote:
Better nerf fortune and 2+ combo as well as grimoire/cursed earth. Where does it end?

Deathstars were beatable in 6th and moreso in 7th due to objective secured.

Those things all need a nerf too.

Reliable 2++ invulnerable saves you can have at all times should not exist without a counter to said saves existing.

If you get your screamer star, I should get Warscythes and Grey Knights who flat out ignore your invulnerable saves like the old old days.

It will not be hard for Eldar to cast at all... Our next tournament will be psychic hell, one option I had was Nids with 4 FHT, 12 Zoans, and the rest troops and Flaming Tyrranofexs (all within no unbound army)... People worry about the power of daemons, I have D6+32 warp charge first turn... Try casting your magic elsewhere!... Poor nids don't get invisible though so once again stooged...

major_payne wrote:

It will not be hard for Eldar to cast at all... Our next tournament will be psychic hell, one option I had was Nids with 4 FHT, 12 Zoans, and the rest troops and Flaming Tyrranofexs (all within no unbound army)... People worry about the power of daemons, I have D6+32 warp charge first turn... Try casting your magic elsewhere!... Poor nids don't get invisible though so once again stooged...

So far all the tournament organisers have been talking about limiting people to 2 detachments, in which case that list would only have 20+d6 warp charges, which sounds like a lot until you realise it takes 12 dice on average to deny a warp charge 2 power and both Grey Knights and Daemons can easily get more in a single detachment.

 Kain wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Better nerf fortune and 2+ combo as well as grimoire/cursed earth. Where does it end?

Deathstars were beatable in 6th and moreso in 7th due to objective secured.

Those things all need a nerf too.

Reliable 2++ invulnerable saves you can have at all times should not exist without a counter to said saves existing.

If you get your screamer star, I should get Warscythes and Grey Knights who flat out ignore your invulnerable saves like the old old days.

All have counters. Give it time, changes to scoring will possibly have a large impact on deathstars.

 LValx wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Better nerf fortune and 2+ combo as well as grimoire/cursed earth. Where does it end?

Deathstars were beatable in 6th and moreso in 7th due to objective secured.

Those things all need a nerf too.

Reliable 2++ invulnerable saves you can have at all times should not exist without a counter to said saves existing.

If you get your screamer star, I should get Warscythes and Grey Knights who flat out ignore your invulnerable saves like the old old days.

All have counters. Give it time, changes to scoring will possibly have a large impact on deathstars.

I don't trust the paint chip eaters at GW to have enough intelligence to fix death stars after two editions of supposed fixes or things that would end Death Stars as a tactic forever being thumped around by the playerbase and never panning out.

Also apparently ghost helms dont negate the other effects of perils, just the wound. Can someone confirm that(I dont have a codex).

 LValx wrote:
Where does it end?

A balanced game that doesn't depend on gimmicks?

Invisibility death stars need speed more than additional layers of durability.

Belekor giving invis to seekers/hounds/fiends, jet seer council, beastpacks with farseers, and spawn with csm sorcerers are the best combos. They are too fast to avoid or ignore.

Paladins and hammernaters are already very durable, but they are also expensive and slow.

Grav centurians can get hit with a tarpit.

I'm not sure how to counter a well played fast moving deathstar with invis. Maybe tarpit some of them with an av13 walker, but walkers are slow and the good death stars are fast.

Meh, not too worried about it. It takes so many dice to cast powers reliably now that they'll either be only casting a couple powers a turn or have high chances of the power failing. Additionally perils everywhere if they do the former. Its pretty dramatic to say invis ignores 5/6ths of shots. At BS3 or 4 you're missing half or a third of those shots anyway. I'm not saying its not strong, about a third or a quarter of shots that would normally hit would still hit. But its WC2; it needs like 5 or 6 dice to be reliable thats two psykers worth of dice to get off one power with a very high chance of perils. It's way less broken than a reroll on a 2+ which actually does cut incoming damage to a sixth. Additionally why bother putting invis on a unit with a reroll 2+ anyway? its already impractical to attack.

belakor is a data slate...

I have yet to see a compettitive tourney that allows data slates

if hitting on 6's is the be all end all, then all flyers are op, over watch is op, and so on... its a powerful spell, we get it... its very far from over the top, and numerous people have mentioned the hard counters to it.

if you roll it, and if you get it off, there are always other things to shoot at... I wasnt wasting pts shooting your death star BEFORE you put invis on it... why would I shoot at it now that i waste even more shots?

tarpit is a thing, it works.

You could Psychic Shriek any Invis character/unit to death with Ahriman in one turn, I reckon.

Ahriman is a beast, 3 shrieks a turn is brutal.

 Arbiter wrote:
Ahriman is a beast, 3 shrieks a turn is brutal.

Does he have something to get around the rule that a unit can't cast the same power more than once per psychic phase? I'm legitimately asking, not trolling - I've never read his codex entry.

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 Arbiter wrote:
Ahriman is a beast, 3 shrieks a turn is brutal.

Does he have something to get around the rule that a unit can't cast the same power more than once per psychic phase? I'm legitimately asking, not trolling - I've never read his codex entry.

New FAQ says that his wargear "The Black Staff of Ahriman", allows him to manifest the same witchfire power up to 3 times per phase.

This is true ^^, which makes him almost silly if his points were not so high. If only he could take a disk of tzeentch.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
You could Psychic Shriek any Invis character/unit to death with Ahriman in one turn, I reckon.

but he's still hitting on 6+...

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
you can always DTW and shut it down.

DTW is not automatic. You statistically need to use 6 warp charges to deny the opponent's blessing, and that is if they only get 1 warp charge off to cast it. More if they happen to roll more than one 4+. Definitely not an option for even close to the majority of armies out there.

That's not how statistics works in this case.
1 dice = 16.66% chance
2 dice = 30.55%
3 dice = 42.13%
4 dice = 52.77%
5 dice = 59.81%
6 dice = 66.51%

You're better off trying to deny two blessings with three dice each than trying to deny one with six dice. Same chance of failure, but possible chance of two successes.

I just don't understand why they buffed it. Invisibility was one of the top telepathy powers in 6th. The only reason they seem to have changed it was because they were too lazy to think up a new original power when they took out puppet master and replaced it with the shrouded power.

Henshini wrote:
I just don't understand why they buffed it. Invisibility was one of the top telepathy powers in 6th. The only reason they seem to have changed it was because they were too lazy to think up a new original power when they took out puppet master and replaced it with the shrouded power.

This was true in early 6th (pre- Tau and eldar.), toward the end of 6th invisibility was a situational power. Great if your opponent did not ignore cover, garbage if they did.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
You could Psychic Shriek any Invis character/unit to death with Ahriman in one turn, I reckon.

but he's still hitting on 6+...

doesn't matter with shriek

 Bulldogging wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 Arbiter wrote:
Ahriman is a beast, 3 shrieks a turn is brutal.

Does he have something to get around the rule that a unit can't cast the same power more than once per psychic phase? I'm legitimately asking, not trolling - I've never read his codex entry.

New FAQ says that his wargear "The Black Staff of Ahriman", allows him to manifest the same witchfire power up to 3 times per phase.

Wow that's pretty sweet, quite the buff!

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
You could Psychic Shriek any Invis character/unit to death with Ahriman in one turn, I reckon.

but he's still hitting on 6+...

doesn't matter with shriek

Per my reading it does. It's a witchfire. Unless otherwise stated, those need to roll to hit. Page 27.

It needs to roll to hit, but unless they've changed the wording for resolving witchfires or psychic shriek it doesn't actually have to hit to affect the unit.

 Thariinye wrote:
The chances of getting at least one Invisibility if you roll all on Telepathy are, if I'm doing the math correctly, 1-(5/6*4/6*3/6)^2 == ~93%. Note that that's actually better than the previous edition, because if you make the decision to go all in on a discipline, you get the primaris for free, meaning you have only 6 powers to roll on instead of 7.

Unfortunately your math is not correct.

Chance of One Farseer not getting Invisibility is 5/6 x 4/5 x 3/4 or 1/2. The chance of two Farseers not getting Invisibility is 1/2 x 1/2 or 1/4. So, we have a 25% chance that two Farseers throwing everything they have at will not get it, which is the same as Tigerius's chances.

Belakor is the real issue as he is guaranteed to get it. Everyone else needs to devote substantial resources to having a good chance of it. Then, we have the chances that it is not cast, which even on 6 dice is 11% and much higher at 31% on three four dice.

If successful there is still a chance to Deny the Witch, if they have only two successes it can be Denied on 4 dice(13% chance) or 6 dice(26%), or even 9 dice(46%). If its successful with three dice it isn't worth a Dispel attempt unless you are throwing upwards of ~20 Deny dice.

Invisibility is extremely powerful and in some games it will win the game, but an army can mitigate it. Usually Invisibility will be only cast once per turn on four dice(69% Success), with a 26% chance of a Perils, then you get a chance to deny on an average of at least four dice(13%).

Averages out to only a 60% chance of a successful casting with a 13% chance of a Perils assuming a four WC casting and four WC Deny attempt. Its 78% successful on six WC casting with 26% chance of Perils.

Yep, its extremely powerful but it is far from a guarentee, and when it fails, you better punish that Casters unit or the intended target because when they get the power up, it isn't going to be pretty.


Unless you are Orks, then just Snap Shot away with your buckets of dice anyway.

 Zagman wrote:

 Thariinye wrote:
The chances of getting at least one Invisibility if you roll all on Telepathy are, if I'm doing the math correctly, 1-(5/6*4/6*3/6)^2 == ~93%. Note that that's actually better than the previous edition, because if you make the decision to go all in on a discipline, you get the primaris for free, meaning you have only 6 powers to roll on instead of 7.

Unless you are Orks, then just Snap Shot away with your buckets of dice anyway.

true, but there are buffs to dispel out there, rune priests get +1, Njal gets +2 making his chances of success much higher.

dont GK get to reroll their failures