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@Soteks Prophet: If these issues are a boring cliche, that's fine. They are the most negative impacts of religion on US society, IMO. The reason they may be boring is because they are brought up frequently because they affect people's lives negatively, and they just won't go away.

Noone's ignoring human rights issues in NK or China. However, these aren't caused by religion (perhaps North Korea), and there is wide agreement by the religious and non-religious that humans rights abuses are bad (except in the case of unequal right for gays and the desire to eliminate reproductive freedom for women)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/05 10:18:37


 
   
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 StarTrotter wrote:
Is it wrong if I can't help but find this statement very entertaining from an icon that is a SoB?

Well, if I liked religion, would I be so happy to play a faction that define being religious by hating and killing with extreme prejudice and tons of xenophobia?
See, it all makes sense actually .
 Kilkrazy wrote:
The small bit of western civilisation that resides outside the USA does not have the problems to which you alluded, yet we have plenty of religion.

Disagree. The creationists and climate change deniers may be typical of the U.S., but damn, even in France, which is one of the most secular countries in the world AFAIK, we got religious people very upset against gay marriage. And some are against abortion too, even though this phenomenon is to a way lesser degree than the anti-gay marriage stuff.
 Scipio Africanus wrote:
The church, despite a belief that it is violent, tends to cause the softening of a country. This can be seen in the Roman Empire where the country went very well and started to crumble only when christianity became widespread.

Something similar can be seen in america, and in many colonist states of europe.

I wholeheartedly disagree.
I mean, I certainly know from the history of my country that increase in trust in the Church did not lead to “softening” and increase of secularization did not lead to “hardening”. It is actually very much the other way around.

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Personally I'm atheist, mainly because I find it incredibly hard to reconcile religion with reality, but I always sum up 'is religion good?' into a single comparison.

Religion is like the internet, it's not inherently good or bad, and generally most of the people involved are nice.

However, it's the small number of total frellin' morons who shout really really loudly all the time that ruin it for the rest of us...

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And that is why you hear people yelling FOR THE EMPEROR rather than FOR LOGICAL AND QUANTIFIABLE BASED DECISIONS FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE MAJORITY!


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 Sigvatr wrote:
 Captain Fantastic wrote:
No, it's not. Science has provided answers for almost all the eternal questions that humans have pondered and assumed were divine design for thousands of years. I'll give organized religion another two centuries, maximum, before it falls out of practice and is replaced with technoworship or some other modern form of faith that revolves around ideas that don't originate in the fertile crescent three thousand years ago.


Wrong. Science can only describe but can't answer the "why" question. The answers to the latter cannot be given by science and therefore remain unanswered still.


That doesn't mean that certain current religions can't be supplanted by a different worship or religion in the future.

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 Leigen_Zero wrote:
Personally I'm atheist, mainly because I find it incredibly hard to reconcile religion with reality, but I always sum up 'is religion good?' into a single comparison.

Religion is like the internet, it's not inherently good or bad, and generally most of the people involved are nice.

However, it's the small number of total frellin' morons who shout really really loudly all the time that ruin it for the rest of us...


You know, that is a remarkably apt assessment. Exalt from a Catholic turned Baptist turned witch!

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 Scipio Africanus wrote:
yellowfever wrote:
Church is bad. People corrupt something that used to be good. Ihaven't met a single "religious" person that wasn't a worthless person that would have been better off growing up without it.


Replace the word religious with the word black and you have racism, this is no different as a sweeping generalisation that is completely uncalled for.


However, replace religion with "vegetables" and you have a great truth...

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 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Many of the founding beliefs within logic, many of the terms we use today and yes, that term you just used - rationalism (which I might add is at odds with the scientific method in some ways, since the former uses reason over empirical evidence, and vice versa) come from religious entities.


In order to dedicate the time and resources to dealing with abstract (or even practical) issues one must have that time and resources to dedicate towards it. For many hundreds of years that could only really come from religious bodies, as they were the only ones sitting around all day not doing anything useful and taking everyone elses money and goods in order to do it.

It is no wonder that many of the early discoveries were made by priests - the, for the time, best educated, time and resource rich people in the world, many of who were curious about what they saw as (the) gods works and how (t)he(y) went about them.

You have to also remember that a lot of "scientific" thought of the time was not only wrong but horrifically so, even dangerously so. Medieval views on childbirth for example...

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 Sigvatr wrote:
 Captain Fantastic wrote:
No, it's not. Science has provided answers for almost all the eternal questions that humans have pondered and assumed were divine design for thousands of years. I'll give organized religion another two centuries, maximum, before it falls out of practice and is replaced with technoworship or some other modern form of faith that revolves around ideas that don't originate in the fertile crescent three thousand years ago.


Wrong. Science can only describe but can't answer the "why" question. The answers to the latter cannot be given by science and therefore remain unanswered still.

Nitpick: "Why" is the realm of philosophy as a whole, not just religion.

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Also why is a futile question in that we cannot get any valid answers. And even the existence of a valid answer is quite dubious anyway.

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To have something that requires you to accept things and not think in a critical way opens the door for all manner of abuses. Faith is endearing but it gives people the thought of "higher purpose" allowing their wishes to be better than someone else's.

Pretty much anything is toxic if taken too far.

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 dæl wrote:


Not at all, Columbus found America, therefore he deservedly gets credit for doing so, but if he hadn't found it then somebody else would have. Anybody who made a scientific discovery deserves credit for doing so. But it is very telling that so many discoveries were made during the Enlightenment, once rationalism was embraced.


That's because the only thing Columbus did find, was a "Commercially viable" route to the western continents of America. Vikings were actually, with archaeological evidence, the first Europeans to live on an American continent.... But we'll go on with a pointless, ridiculous holiday of "Columbus Day"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Scipio Africanus wrote:


The church, despite a belief that it is violent, tends to cause the softening of a country. This can be seen in the Roman Empire where the country went very well and started to crumble only when christianity became widespread.



To blame the fall of the Roman Empire solely on christianity is quite a bit naive, to say the least. And anyhow, we see later, in the 900s-1300s or so, that Christianity can be and is, just as "hard" as any other military force previously seen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/05 13:48:11


 
   
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B and C are not exclusively religious positions. I know many 'Pro-Life' atheists and people who oppose gay marriage on both financial sides and people who think the government should have nothing to do with marriage and should abolish joint filing (and other crazy positions like flat tax and stuff)

D, I can't even see a religious angle... Climate change debate is straight up an economic force by industry who makes money and cleaning up pollution loses them money. This is the Leaded Gas debate all over.

Blaming Religion for all that is wrong in the world is the new 'cool thing to do'. And while private charities may be all the rage... that is based on the assumption that people are naturally charitable without skygrandpa looking down on them while stroking his white beard. The sad truth is while you supposedly *COULD* have private charities which rely on non-religious donations... they simply don't materialize.

As someone who works at soup kitchens and food programs, none of them are private. All are religious, Civic, or a combination of both. And guess what? People *HATE* the concept of Civic social programs because they see it as taxes being spent on pork. The response is "ok... then let charities fill in the blanks!" and the response is "Cool... but let someone else donate."

I will gladly accept religion simply for the power to make humans which are naturally bitter and selfish to spend money on others in the form of charity. If it takes fear of afterlife, or thunder bolts or galactic overlords to make people donate time or money, so be it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ensis Ferrae wrote:


To blame the fall of the Roman Empire solely on Christianity is quite a bit naive, to say the least.


Lead... Almost all the political/social/religious/whatever issues were direct results of lead poisoning.

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 dæl wrote:
Personally I think the whole 'centuries of scientific stagnation' thing skews the case heavily against religion, we could be zipping about on jetbikes by now if it wasn't for those meddling priests.


Daniel Jackson was awesome, but he sucked at history. The idea that the dark ages were a terrible era of cultural and social backwardsness is a myth produced by the idea that the dark ages were actually a thing. Scientific progress at most slowed in Western Europe, but it didn't never stagnated. Add on to that any slow in progress is more attributable to the economic struggles of post Rome Europe than any religious motivations.

I'm going to tell a little long winded tale, so skip the rest of this post if you're not interested.

Spoiler:
In 1616, an Inquisitorial Commission was called to investigate charges of heresy against a man named Galileo Galilei. Galileo was the then leading man arguing for the Copernican model of the Heliocentric universe. Galileo's work was declared a heresy and he was ordered never to speak of it again. This is the story people often cite when advancing the idea that the Church was always anti-science, and that scientists had to fight tooth and nail to get anything done.

Expect that's complete crap (and bad history).

Galileo was a minority in his time. Most astronomers did not believe in the Heliocentric universe and considered Copernicus a crazy old cod, and Galileo an idiot for listening to him. Galileo argued for years with fellow scientists over the issue to no avail. They called him a quack, attacked his math, his personal interests, and being a bunch of Christians, cited Biblical passages that they argued proved the sun rotated around the Earth (These passages are Pslams chapters 93, 96, and 104).

Galileo attempted to counter the claims that the Copernican model was heresy (cause he wasn't an idiot and knew that being called a heretic was not something you really wanted to have happen to you in 17th century Italy). He argued from Augustinian theology, cause surprise, intellectuals in this time and era were usually very well versed in Christian theological concepts. He argued that the Bible was not speaking literally, and shouldn't be taken as such. Galileo won many members of the clergy and nobility with his argument.

At a diner party in 1613, one of his students Abbot Benedetto Castelli wrote his mentor to inform him of an event. To make it shorter, at the party Benedetto debated the Copernican model with a philosopher named Cosimo Boscaglia. After the diner, he was recalled by a woman named Christina, the Duchess of Lorraine to answer questions about the Copernican model. Benedetto managed to convince everyone in the room (including clergy) that the Copernican model was not against scripture save Christina.

In response Galileo wrote to her in 1615. In the letter he put forth a theological argument, because Galileo was a Christian. He didn't disagree with the Bible, he was annoyed at how everyone was taking it so literally (personally I can relate). Unfortunately, this was a very bad idea. Galileo and Benedetto were under the mistaken impression that Christina was curious. She was not. She in fact thought they were both heretics. Mistaking her for having been won over to his side, Galileo pushed the later.

When the letter began to be circulated in an expanded format as a pamphlet later that year it crossed the path of Tommaso Caccini, a friar and a Dominican. He brought it to the attention of his order who believed that the letter contained passages that violated the Council of Trent. Here's the thing about the Dominicans. They were among the most conservative of the Christian orders. Always had been. The Church as a whole body did not call the Inquisition on Galileo. The Dominicans did.

The Dominicans forwarded Galileos letter along with a cover letter of their own accusing him and his followers of all kinds of things (most of the charges they leveled against him were false). Galileo heard about this pretty fast and was rightly worried but he was in poor health and could not travel. This meant that in Rome he was being accused of a lot of things, and had few supporters in the Vatican itself to defend him (really, many of them only knew of Galileo in passing, and the Dominican charges were the first time Galileo was really coming to their attention). By the time Galileo could finally go to Rome, against the advice of everyone because it was a really bad idea, the Domincans had a new ally in casting their aspersions; The astronomy community. Yeah. Galileo was being condemned by other scientists in front of the Inquisition.

Galileo did not fully realize however he had a powerful ally. Robert Bellarmine. A Jesuit and a Cardinal who was one of the most respected Theologians of his time. Bellarmine had previously spoken with Galileo, advising him to tread carefully with his arguments as they put him in a dangerous position (obviously Galileo didn't listen). Bellarmine did not discount the Copernican model. Rather he was open to it and curious, unlike Christina. He warned Galileo to be careful and build a powerful body of scientific proof before really pushing his theory and that he'd need to tread carefully when addressing scripture so as not to offend the Holy See. Bellarmine accurately described the issue of the Copernican model not as one strictly about the faith, but one that would become involved if Galileo was not careful. Obviously, Galileo didn't listen to Bellarmine. Nevertheless when the Inquisition began looking into Galileo, the Jesuits were the ones who moved to defend him, saying that the charges brought against him lacked evidence and overreached, accusing Galileo of things he had not expressly done (note here, that one Christian order brings Galileo to the attention of the Church, while another hoped to defend him).

When the Galileo arrived in Rome, Bellarmine was chosen to arbitrate the dispute. The events from here get a little muddled as some unusual things happened. The Inquisition was quick to forward the case to a group of theologians called 'Qualifiers.' There were men who were presented with Galileo's work and asked to examine it. The problem? Half the Qualifiers were Dominicans (no one had really caught onto conflict of interest as a concept just yet). The Qualifiers response resulted in the Inquisition declaring Heliocentrism heresy. Galileo was ordered Bellarmine to deliver the verdict, and shocked everyone when his verdict was even harsher than the one the Inquisition called for. On its face.

See, Bellarmine was a crafty guy. At this point, there was no way to save the Copernican model. It was quickly declared false and Copernicus' work was banned when a body of Astronomers (yes scientists, again) sent a formal request that the Church do so. However, Bellarmine was able to save Galileo from punishment. Galileo was ordered to cease public teaching and discussion of Copernicus' theories, but note that he was ordered to cease public discussion. Further, Bellarmine's wording of the ruling was such that the only thing Galileo couldn't do was advocate the theory. He and others were still allowed to discuss it as a hypothetical (Galileo seemingly did not get this part). Bellarmine had craftily given Galileo a way out and a way to continue his work while throwing all attention away from him. After all, the theory was banned. In time everyone would just forget about him and he could find an opportunity to begin again. The Pope, Gregory XV, under Bellarmine's recommendation promised Galileo would not be harmed for supporting Copernicus' model prior to its ban.

Galileo pretty much disappeared for several years. He was never actually forced to recant or do penance, though his supporters made such claims (this was part of the ongoing propaganda war of the Reformation, which Galileo was being kind of sucked into but it never directly came to bite him). It all went to hell in 1623. Gregory died and was succeeded by Urban VIII. Galileo saw this as his chance. He knew Urban VIII. Born Mafio Barberini, both men came from the Florence area (Galileo was born in Pisa) and had studied together when they were younger. Galileo went to Rome personally to Congratulate his friend, and to get some help.

In 1632, with permission from the Inquisition and help from Urban VIII, Galileo was allowed to write about the Copernican model. He wrote Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, published in 1633 in Florence. The book became a best seller. Though Astronomers at large still heavily opposed Galileo, he had since his first trial won over many others in private (thanks Bellarmine). Barbeni had supported Galileo during his trial, and though it was never openly discussed, Galileo took his friends election as an opportunity to publicly argue for the Copernican model with the hope that his friends in the church would support him against rival elements in the Churchs.

The book portrays a conversation between three men about the Copernical and Ptolemic models of the Universe. Now note, officially, the Copernican model was still banned. Galileo even had to change the original title (Dialogue on the Tides) and do some rewriting because of the today lesser known but equally big deal then Theory of Tides, which used the Copernican model as part of its proof and the Inquisition had again been used by Dominicans and scientists to silence the minority arguing in favor of the theory. Galileo was able to do this by presenting the book as an argument about science using the Copernican controversy as a model (this idea was proposed by a pupil who was also one of Urban's aids. Yes one of Galileo's pupils worked directly for the Pope).

Thus we come to the point where Galileo shoots himself in the foot. Urban was excited when Galileo presented his first draft. Like Bellarmine, he warned Galileo to be careful (the Pope naturally has to consider his own political position) and not to be too aggressive in his arguments. He also requested his own thoughts on the matter be included in the book, which Galileo agreed to do. Galileo seemingly, didn't think thought everything he was doing. In the book, a man named Simplicio argues for the Ptolemic model. In the book, Simplicio comes off as a complete idiot. Simplicio in Italian was a word for Simpleton. Galileo did not heed Urban's warning, and the book was very aggressively in favor of the Copernican model to the point that the Inquisition went to the Pope and said Galileo broke the rules, going from a mere hypothetical discussion to advocacy.

Unfortunately for Galileo, Urban's argument is presented by Simplicio (the guy who comes off as a simpleton in the book). Thusly insulted, Urban stopped supporting Galileo and set the dogs on him. As the knowledge of this insult spread through the Church body, Galileo lost his other long standing supporters, the Jesuits. Apparently, everyone in the Catholic church draws a line at insulting the Pope. This is the point where the Inquisition went torture and penance on him. He was called to Rome and charged with Heresy and this time no one stood up to help him. He spent the rest of his life under house arrest, though I note that much of that time was spent under the protection of an Archbishop who personally approached Galileo about his safety after the tiral and offered him protection in his own residence. Galileo continued to be a scientist and made notable contributions to physics.

Now the issue of Urban turning on Galileo is more complicated than the slight insult, but I think I've gone on long enough. The reason I've bored everyone with this long ass story is thus; This idea that the Church was anti-science is too simple a view of history. It's not accurate. Galileo wasn't even hit with a hammer for his science he was hit when everyone said he insulted the Pope. Further persecution directed at him didn't just come from the Church, it came from scientists who jumped at the chance to shut Galileo up (as a side matter, apparently he was kind of a dick) and these scientists and philosophers stood in the majority. Most of his support came from the nobility and from inside the Church itself.

Galileo's pupils had a lot more luck than him. Their greatest supporter? Pope Urban VIII, who crushed Galileo but continued to quietly back many of those who argued for the Heliocentric universe. Several other Popes would do the same until it was unbanned in the 19th century, though by that time scientists no longer cared as much about what the Church did or did not ban.

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That would be the same Robert Bellarmine who sat as a judge against Giordano Bruno and burned him at the stake for advocating the Copernican model and the existence of other worlds? Sounds like a true champion of free thought.
   
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I think the general idea is that if the influence of Greco-Roman civilization had not taken such a brutal blow, we would have likely had cars, electricity, modern plumbing, etc. well before the year 1000, and in general, most of the technoligical and scientific advances we have made would have come much earlier.

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 jasper76 wrote:
I think the general idea is that if the influence of Greco-Roman civilization had not taken such a brutal blow, we would have likely had cars, electricity, modern plumbing, etc. well before the year 1000, and in general, most of the technoligical and scientific advances we have made would have come much earlier.


Yep... Lead sucks... and we almost re-created it in the 20th century with leaded gas pumping lead into the air and water. Who knows? Maybe the issues we are having today are due to a whole generation of brain-damaged lead-poisoned people?

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 dæl wrote:
That would be the same Robert Bellarmine who sat as a judge against Giordano Bruno and burned him at the stake for advocating the Copernican model and the existence of other worlds? Sounds like a true champion of free thought.


It's not so much that he was a champion of free thought as he was a very shrewd politician. In the larger context of Europe at this time was the Reformation. Bellarmine was a leading figure in the Catholic Counter-Reformation. Science ended up getting sucked into this conflict as naturally a major sticking point for the Reformation movement was that the Catholic Church had a stick up its butt so they took any opportunity to try and poke the bear (and the Holy Roman Empire wanted to conquer Italy so its kind of complicated). Bellarmine didn't like that. Rather than alienate scientists, he preferred to keep and open mind and try to court them, least they leave the church and join ranks with the Reformation. EDIT: it also helps that like Galileo, he favor Augustinian theology.

Giodano Bruno had the unfortunate case that while Galileo was a devout Christian, Bruno... Not so much. The idea that he's a martyr for science is brought to us by the 19th century when this whole "the church hates science" thing got started. Bruno was very public in his attacks on the Catholic Church (and he went farther than not realizing putting the Pope's words in the mouth of a character named Simpleton). At first, the Church just considered him another Martin Luther kind of fellow until he openly started calling the basic tenets of Christianity into question. He was also (and this is the cool part) one of the earliest men to make an argument that today could be called a precursor to String theory

My argument isn't that the Catholic Church were all swells guys after all, just that science in itself rarely catched their ire and that for every member of the church who attacked a scientist, another tried defending him. Bruno didn't have that luxury though. His religious views got him killed, not his science. Further, while I doubt Bellarmine had any reservations about the ordeal being a Counter Reformationist, he didn't decide in himself to kill Bruno. That decision was made by the larger Inquisition body. He merely handed down the sentence.

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nkelsch wrote:
 jasper76 wrote:
I think the general idea is that if the influence of Greco-Roman civilization had not taken such a brutal blow, we would have likely had cars, electricity, modern plumbing, etc. well before the year 1000, and in general, most of the technoligical and scientific advances we have made would have come much earlier.


Yep... Lead sucks... and we almost re-created it in the 20th century with leaded gas pumping lead into the air and water. Who knows? Maybe the issues we are having today are due to a whole generation of brain-damaged lead-poisoned people?


You may be correct, but the detriments of specific technological advancements would be the same for any culture at any point in history.
   
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 jasper76 wrote:
I think the general idea is that if the influence of Greco-Roman civilization had not taken such a brutal blow, we would have likely had cars, electricity, modern plumbing, etc. well before the year 1000, and in general, most of the technoligical and scientific advances we have made would have come much earlier.


That itself is based on the false notion that Greco-Roman civilization was a golden age of scientific progress when it really wasn't. Really the Roman understanding of natural philosophy (what they called science) changed very little from the turn of the era to the fall of the Empire. They just repeated most of the works of the Greek and Hellenistic academics from centuries prior. If there was a scientific stagnation, it actually took place between 100 BC and 120 AD. It wouldn't be until the Islamic Golden Age that a huge leap forward of scientific progress would really take place (Ptolemy was arguably the last great scientist of the Greek world, and the Romans just held him up as the end all be all).

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A world where the government seizes your money for charitable/personal use to spend to build schools to indoctrinate your kids and that assumes you trust the government to do what is best with your money?

No thank you.

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 LordofHats wrote:
My argument isn't that the Catholic Church were all swells guys after all, just that science in itself rarely catched their ire and that for every member of the church who attacked a scientist, another tried defending him.


I'd like to know exactly why the Library of Alexandria was destroyed...and what type of knowledge exactly was lost.

Unfortunately, until I get my time machine working, I guess I'll never know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:
 jasper76 wrote:
I think the general idea is that if the influence of Greco-Roman civilization had not taken such a brutal blow, we would have likely had cars, electricity, modern plumbing, etc. well before the year 1000, and in general, most of the technoligical and scientific advances we have made would have come much earlier.


That itself is based on the false notion that Greco-Roman civilization was a golden age of scientific progress when it really wasn't. Really the Roman understanding of natural philosophy (what they called science) changed very little from the turn of the era to the fall of the Empire. They just repeated most of the works of the Greek and Hellenistic academics from centuries prior. If there was a scientific stagnation, it actually took place between 100 BC and 120 AD. It wouldn't be until the Islamic Golden Age that a huge leap forward of scientific progress would really take place (Ptolemy was arguably the last great scientist of the Greek world, and the Romans just held him up as the end all be all).


Do you really believe that the Romans were stagnant in their technological development?

concrete, irrigation, architecture, fortification, plumbing, engineering, mining, etc.


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 jasper76 wrote:


I'd like to know exactly why the Library of Alexandria was destroyed...


Because Julius Ceasar burned it to the ground

I assume you're referring to the destruction of the second Library, which some have accused the Coptic Pope (not to be confused with the Catholic Popes) with ordering, but there's no real historical evidence to back the claim that the second Library even existed in that time period, let alone that Theophilus ordered its destruction. Aside from that, Theophilus was a mad man

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/05 15:02:56


   
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 jasper76 wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
My argument isn't that the Catholic Church were all swells guys after all, just that science in itself rarely catched their ire and that for every member of the church who attacked a scientist, another tried defending him.


I'd like to know exactly why the Library of Alexandria was destroyed...and what type of knowledge exactly was lost.

Unfortunately, until I get my time machine working, I guess I'll never know.


China went through similar 'destruction of knowledge' and that wasn't because of religion, it was simply because the emperor thought it would secure his power. Destruction of knowledge is done to keep people down and is not a religious prerogative. It is a choice by men who want to rule and are in power, be it religious positions, or governmental positions.

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RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
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MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA." 
   
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 jasper76 wrote:
concrete, irrigation, architecture, fortification, plumbing, engineering, mining, etc.


All feats of engineering, their great talent. In terms of the larger field of science, their contributions to astronomy, mathematics, and biology, were minimal. Further, they weren't the first to do any of the above save concrete and plumbing (they weren't the first to do plumbing but it's unlikely they picked it up from anyone else).

   
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nkelsch wrote:
 jasper76 wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
My argument isn't that the Catholic Church were all swells guys after all, just that science in itself rarely catched their ire and that for every member of the church who attacked a scientist, another tried defending him.


I'd like to know exactly why the Library of Alexandria was destroyed...and what type of knowledge exactly was lost.

Unfortunately, until I get my time machine working, I guess I'll never know.


China went through similar 'destruction of knowledge' and that wasn't because of religion, it was simply because the emperor thought it would secure his power. Destruction of knowledge is done to keep people down and is not a religious prerogative. It is a choice by men who want to rule and are in power, be it religious positions, or governmental positions.


Question about the exitence of the 2nd library aside, for which I didn't really know there was controversy, I don't disagree with you. However, if such a library existed, its a damn shame that it was lost.


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 LordofHats wrote:
 jasper76 wrote:
concrete, irrigation, architecture, fortification, plumbing, engineering, mining, etc.


All feats of engineering, their great talent. In terms of the larger field of science, their contributions to astronomy, mathematics, and biology, were minimal. Further, they weren't the first to do any of the above save concrete and plumbing (they weren't the first to do plumbing but it's unlikely they picked it up from anyone else).


Well, concrete and plumbing, and engineering in general, are pretty big deals, with more immediate impact on civilization I'd say than at least astronomy and biology.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/05 15:06:23


 
   
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 jasper76 wrote:


Question about the exitence of the 2nd library aside, for which I didn't really know there was controversy, I don't disagree with you. However, if such a library existed, its a damn shame that it was lost.


Oh it certainly is and Christians can be blamed for destroying a lot of things. If you ever go to Greece, and see damage on ancient Greek monuments... yeah our bad guys I'll never argue old Christians were all great people of enlightenment. But they were certainly no less enlightened than anyone else, and characterization of the Catholic Church as a stopper on scientific progress ignores not only the great strides made in science under the Chruch's sphere of influence but the Church's own role in fostering scientific advancement.

Genetics as a theory was created by a monk. An Islamic cleric created the scientific method. Religion and Science are no mores enemies throughout history than anything else. We should be careful not to juxtapose the current conflict of religion and science into the past.

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 Jihadin wrote:
To get an idea. Read the "Same Sex" thread

Yeesh, I started that thread as a simple question, and it got out of hand quickly.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
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 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
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Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
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 jasper76 wrote:
I think the general idea is that if the influence of Greco-Roman civilization had not taken such a brutal blow, we would have likely had cars, electricity, modern plumbing, etc. well before the year 1000, and in general, most of the technoligical and scientific advances we have made would have come much earlier.


Nah. We would have had slavery. Rome was a predatory state not known in actuality for scientific advancement, especially once it went "empire" in a big way. Greece was, but guess who controlled Greece?

Labor saving devices, which is what the Industrial Revolution was, would not have taken off there as they had slaves to do the work. Its why it didn't take off there in the first place as they had the technology.

Think China before the great awakening. They did not advance in many industries because they had massive surplus labor.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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 Frazzled wrote:
 jasper76 wrote:
I think the general idea is that if the influence of Greco-Roman civilization had not taken such a brutal blow, we would have likely had cars, electricity, modern plumbing, etc. well before the year 1000, and in general, most of the technoligical and scientific advances we have made would have come much earlier.


Nah. We would have had slavery. Rome was a predatory state not known in actuality for scientific advancement, especially once it went "empire" in a big way. Greece was, but guess who controlled Greece?

Labor saving devices, which is what the Industrial Revolution was, would not have taken off there as they had slaves to do the work. Its why it didn't take off there in the first place as they had the technology.

Think China before the great awakening. They did not advance in many industries because they had massive surplus labor.


Hmmm, I see what you are saying....but do you know for certain that Roman civilization would not eventually have abolished slavery? Roman civilization was fundamentally incapable of going through its own "enlightenment"? The US was built on slavery and territorial predation, but we were able to finally abolish slavery.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/05 15:20:22


 
   
 
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