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2014/06/10 05:39:32
Subject: Re:The Daemonic breach on Terra and the Custodes.
The Emperor obliterated Horus, soul and all.
Yes he is the Emperor, but this act at least indicates that there is a way to utterly destroy a spirit.
Everyone believes chaos will win in the end... I say, there might be a way to kill them utterly... Not saying it will happen, just saying there is a way.
If the necrons win, all life is killed, no more emotions, Chaos will wither and die.
If the Tyranids win, all life is part of the hive mind, Chaos will wither and die.
The Emperor obliterated Horus, soul and all.
Yes he is the Emperor, but this act at least indicates that there is a way to utterly destroy a spirit.
Everyone believes chaos will win in the end... I say, there might be a way to kill them utterly... Not saying it will happen, just saying there is a way.
If the necrons win, all life is killed, no more emotions, Chaos will wither and die.
If the Tyranids win, all life is part of the hive mind, Chaos will wither and die.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: Custodes are warriors, not soldiers. All we real know about them, is that we don't know what they're totally capable of.
I'm fully of the belief that they could battle daemons for an eternity at the base of thr Golden Throne, they were bred to guard the Emperor. But I guess we'll just have to wait until the book comes out.
I do not believe this.
1. Custodes are as far and above Astartes as Astartes are above humanity, as close to Primarchs you can get without actually being one. Having said that, they are still living creatures and still need sleep, food and nourishment, and I'm sure that there is no "shifts" in a battle like this for them to rest and take a dump. 2. Custodes were bred by the Emperor using super secret genetic manipulation only he could do, same as Primarchs and Space Marines. With the Emperor incapacitated the Custodes have limited forces, whereas Daemons simply respawn to eternity. Coupled with 1, the Custodes would have been long worn down ages ago.
Nope not true. In fact they are "slightly" above the average marine. That's it. The best marines can go toe to toe with the Custodes. A veteran captain may even be able to kill a couple. A primarch would wade through a sea of them.
motyak wrote: It's been a while since Primodial has gotten onto his Custodian horse. It's best to just say 'yep sure' and move on from the thread. He'll argue right up to the lock about what 'everyone knows' and how any disagreement with his points 'makes you look stupid'. Just let the thread die by not giving him someone to insult for disagreeing.
Quick!!!
We need three goats!!!
Or just one big one!!!
I haven't had a thread of mine locked in ages.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @TheRedWingArmada.
Dude.
There are a million CSM, a million SM, and trillions of imperial Guard, millions of assassins, and hundreds of thousands of loyalist ships.
Chaos has far fewer numbers because deviation from the Imperial Cult is all said and done very uncommon.
Who said there are a million SM? There's most of the original Legions, the Black Legion (which is huge and has hundreds of thousands of recruits), regular warbands, Huron Blackheart's space buddies and then countless Cultists. You're forgetting that there are millions of worlds full of worshippers of Chaos in the Warp.
Plus Demons who can't die.
To be fair the regular legions tend to be small with the Black Legion swallowing most of their host. There is really just the Black Legion and small warbands carrying old legion names.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/10 14:56:12
2014/06/10 20:25:37
Subject: The Daemonic breach on Terra and the Custodes.
They number strongly, however getting them to act as a effective unified force is difficult.
Chaos does not play well together often.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2014/06/10 21:20:18
Subject: The Daemonic breach on Terra and the Custodes.
jhe90 wrote: They number strongly, however getting them to act as a effective unified force is difficult.
Chaos does not play well together often.
That wasn't the discussion, the discussion was who outnumbers who, or who is more powerful.
I can reliably say that Chaos outnumbers the Imperium greatly.
jhe90 wrote: They number strongly, however getting them to act as a effective unified force is difficult.
Chaos does not play well together often.
That wasn't the discussion, the discussion was who outnumbers who, or who is more powerful.
I can reliably say that Chaos outnumbers the Imperium greatly.
True but numbers don't t matter if you cannot unite and chomand your masse,s.
On space marines they have a lot, but lot fractured, not cohesive force like original legions.
Cultist probbly on every planet, sects, and such but often they seem to make guasrdsman look good,
Deamons very powerful but fickle.
Chaos may have power but its hard to unite, if you could trueky unite the combined primarchs chs, marines, cultests, fleets and lords, you may reach Terra though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd say even, yes impirium has tons of worlds but its slow to bring to bear + has a huge supply tail.
Chaos is fractured,fickle.
Both have weaknesses that lkimit there capability
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/10 21:43:35
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2014/06/10 22:03:09
Subject: The Daemonic breach on Terra and the Custodes.
Nope not true. In fact they are "slightly" above the average marine. That's it. The best marines can go toe to toe with the Custodes. A veteran captain may even be able to kill a couple. A primarch would wade through a sea of them.
One v one, a Chapter Master would get his arse handed to him by a Custodes, let alone a Veteran Captain. Where the SM excel is in their small-unit tactics and functionality as soldiers, which is not something the Custodes are for.
Nope not true. In fact they are "slightly" above the average marine. That's it. The best marines can go toe to toe with the Custodes. A veteran captain may even be able to kill a couple. A primarch would wade through a sea of them.
One v one, a Chapter Master would get his arse handed to him by a Custodes, let alone a Veteran Captain. Where the SM excel is in their small-unit tactics and functionality as soldiers, which is not something the Custodes are for.
Agreed. In First Heretic, Argel Tal (despite being Chapter Master and a very experienced captain who can go toe to toe with Kharn) could never defeat Aquillon (Custodian). However, upon becoming possessed he defeats him easily.
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2014/06/11 10:55:46
Subject: The Daemonic breach on Terra and the Custodes.
Pilau Rice wrote: But then in The Outcast Dead, a World Eater pulls the spine out of a Custodes after a bout.
Aquillon is an example of a rather talented Custodes hence his appointment as Occuli Imperator.
To say that all Custodes would beat an Astartes is a bit wrong I would say. The majority yeah, but not all.
Argel Tal, before his possession, wasn't noted as being the most capable warrior.
He was, at least in Betrayer he was. He was noted to be great friend of Kharn's due to their shared style on the battlefield and in the gladiator ring. In the ring they didn't try due to the lack of danger, but on the battlefield they were fierce. Also, Betrayer marked the first time the two had met since before Argel Tal's possession.
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2014/06/11 11:47:06
Subject: Re:The Daemonic breach on Terra and the Custodes.
He was, at least in Betrayer he was. He was noted to be great friend of Kharn's due to their shared style on the battlefield and in the gladiator ring. In the ring they didn't try due to the lack of danger, but on the battlefield they were fierce. Also, Betrayer marked the first time the two had met since before Argel Tal's possession.
That's not entirely true as Argel Tal and Kharn having a sparing match in Butchers Nails which takes place before Betrayer.
Battle of Gyros-Thravian (Unknown Date.M30) - The Battle of Gyros-Thravian was a massive joint Imperial Compliance action carried out by three Space Marine Legions, composed of the Luna Wolves, Death Guard and Imperial Fists against the extremely powerful Ork Warboss Gharkul Blackfang, one of the most powerful Ork warlords ever encountered up until that time. Despite the strength arrayed against the vile Greenskin, it was the Imperial forces who were soon on the verge of defeat. It was then that the Emperor Himself, aboard his flagship Bucephelus, came to the aid of his sons. He personally led a force composed of 1,000 Legio Custodes into the heart of the mighty Ork horde. Blackfang was confronted by the Emperor and killed atop his Gargant while the Custodians proceeded to lay waste to the rest of the Greenskin horde. The Custodians accounted for the slaughter of the Orks, slaying over 100,000 of the savage xenos, with the loss of only three Custodians. Following their momentous victory, the Emperor commemorated the Custodians' sacrifice by engraving the names of the three fallen Custodians into his own personal Power Armour.
1) They are a group of 10,000 genetically-engineered superhumans who are even more potent in combat than the Adeptus Astartes and who serve as the Emperor's personal guardians and praetorian bodyguard.
2) The martial capabilities of the Adeptus Custodes remain largely unknown at the present time. What is known is that they possess skill beyond even a "normal" member of the Adeptus Astartes. It has been said that the Adeptus Custodes are to a Space Marine what a Space Marine is to a member of the Imperial Guard.
3) They stand a full head taller than a Space Marine and it is said that they were almost the same size as a Primarch. In fact it was said that Constantine Valdor, Captain-General of the Legio Custodes and Chief Custodian to the Emperor during the Horus Hersey, was the same size as the Traitor Primarch Alpharius of the Alpha Legion.
4) Only 300 Custodes serve as the actual personal guard of the Emperor, called the Emperor's Companions, who guard the Emperor's chambers at all times.
5) Constantine Valdor was one of the first High Lords of Terra chosen after the end of the Horus Heresy to guide the Imperium forward following the Emperor's internment within the Golden Throne. He also had a close relationship with the Primarchs Rogal Dorn and Leman Russ, although initially Russ and Valdor did not see eye to eye. Dorn was ever-present at the Imperial Palace during the Great Crusade and so Valdor and the Primarch spent much time together. On the other hand, Valdor only earned Russ' respect when the former defeated Horus in a sparring match.
6) Custodians are typically seen with a Guardian Spear which, in the days before the Horus Heresy, was actualy a combination of a Force Halberd with a Bolter. This made the weapon powerful at range as well as deadly effective in close-combat. A Gladius is normally seen at their side, which serves as a Power Weapon. The Custodian Gaius Commodus carried a modified version of the ancient Guardian Spear. It is rumoured that the spear itself was a relic given to him by Constantine Valdor, the Captain-General of the Custodians during the Horus Heresy.
All 3 primarchs were at the battle and Death Guard who are tough as nails and can take a beating, Luna Wolves who are supposed to be masters of assault and imperial fist the masters of siege couldn't fight off a ork horde which a 1000 Custodes did. I would say an ork is equivalent roughly to a lesser daemon.
Also if there is only that many watching the emperor lets say with basic bodyguard rotation where are all the others at.
However; I thought the whole point of the golden throne was to keep all the daemons out. Otherwise it would've been pointless for him to sit on it during the siege of Terra but, i would think maybe he is keeping the big ones out and only the lesser daemons are small enough to slip through the psychic shield.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/11 14:20:41
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2014/06/11 15:08:47
Subject: Re:The Daemonic breach on Terra and the Custodes.
ravengatorfan wrote: The Custodians accounted for the slaughter of the Orks, slaying over 100,000 of the savage xenos, with the loss of only three Custodians. Following their momentous victory, the Emperor commemorated the Custodians' sacrifice by engraving the names of the three fallen Custodians into his own personal Power Armour.
And the actual piece of fluff states
As the Emperor decapitated the giant, black skinned ork, the Custodians laid waste to the warlord's prime warriors. It is said that within moments over a hundred thousand greenskins died and the Waaagh! was broken. Legend Has it that only three Custodians fell at the battle, their names enshrined forever, engraved on the Emperors armour.
It's taken from Collected Visions, P143. Notice the part that says Legend, a legend isn't always necessarily true.
3) They stand a full head taller than a Space Marine and it is said that they were almost the same size as a Primarch. In fact it was said that Constantine Valdor, Captain-General of the Legio Custodes and Chief Custodian to the Emperor during the Horus Hersey, was the same size as the Traitor Primarch Alpharius of the Alpha Legion.
They are taller and stronger than an Astartes, but all Astartes? Even the Astartes that are larger than normal Astartes? Where is the quote that Valdor is as tall as Alpharius taken from? It's not proving anything amazing really as Alpharius had Alpha Legionnaires the same height as him. So if that makes Valdor tall amongst the Custodians, then Custodes can't be that much bigger than regular Astartes.
5) Constantine Valdor was one of the first High Lords of Terra chosen after the end of the Horus Heresy to guide the Imperium forward following the Emperor's internment within the Golden Throne. He also had a close relationship with the Primarchs Rogal Dorn and Leman Russ, although initially Russ and Valdor did not see eye to eye. Dorn was ever-present at the Imperial Palace during the Great Crusade and so Valdor and the Primarch spent much time together. On the other hand, Valdor only earned Russ' respect when the former defeated Horus in a sparring match.
Most of this is true but the sparring match with Russ has been mentioned many times, but no one has ever been able to provide a source for this. If you can, groovy, please do.
My point on this isn't to say Custodes aren't as good as Astartes at all, they are better, but to say 100% is misguided.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/11 15:09:33
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2014/06/11 20:17:54
Subject: Re:The Daemonic breach on Terra and the Custodes.
I'm not sure the books of all that its all from the pages above. In your quote the legend part is referring to the 3 names being inscribed on the emporers armor not that 3 died or it didn't happen. Also alpharuis is stated to be bigger than all of his legion.
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2014/06/11 22:40:17
Subject: The Daemonic breach on Terra and the Custodes.
The Lexi article on that battle indicates that the Emperor and 1000 Custodes killed over 100,000 Orks and lost only 3 Custodes in the action. That would imply that those three are the ones who's names are born on the Emperor's armor.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2014/06/12 08:21:44
Subject: The Daemonic breach on Terra and the Custodes.
ravengatorfan wrote: I'm not sure the books of all that its all from the pages above. In your quote the legend part is referring to the 3 names being inscribed on the emporers armor not that 3 died or it didn't happen. Also alpharuis is stated to be bigger than all of his legion.
Legend Has it that only three Custodians fell at the battle, their names enshrined forever, engraved on the Emperors armour.
So the legend is, that only three Custodes fell in the battle and that their names were inscribed on the Emperors armour.
And also on Alpharius, have you read Legion? Straight off I can think of two Astartes that were the same size as him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/12 08:22:22
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2014/06/12 08:31:24
Subject: The Daemonic breach on Terra and the Custodes.
Nope not true. In fact they are "slightly" above the average marine. That's it. The best marines can go toe to toe with the Custodes. A veteran captain may even be able to kill a couple. A primarch would wade through a sea of them.
One v one, a Chapter Master would get his arse handed to him by a Custodes, let alone a Veteran Captain. Where the SM excel is in their small-unit tactics and functionality as soldiers, which is not something the Custodes are for.
The Custodians killed 100,000 orks and took 3 losses in return.
Where's Lynata and Vakathi? I think they'd have a heart attack reading that.
It's not unheard of for Astartes and equivalents to be that badass, though. Studio fluff outright states that 10,000 Salamanders held the line, alone, against "over 1 million" orks for an entire year of open warfare. Thats' 1 Space Marine for every 100 orks. In open combat. No hit and run tactics, no guerilla warfare. Just manfighting.
Considering that Custodes make Astartes look like chumps, it's not beyond the realm of implausibility that they could perform a far more impressive feat.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/06/12 08:37:47
2014/06/12 09:46:20
Subject: Re:The Daemonic breach on Terra and the Custodes.
Nope not true. In fact they are "slightly" above the average marine. That's it. The best marines can go toe to toe with the Custodes. A veteran captain may even be able to kill a couple. A primarch would wade through a sea of them.
One v one, a Chapter Master would get his arse handed to him by a Custodes, let alone a Veteran Captain. Where the SM excel is in their small-unit tactics and functionality as soldiers, which is not something the Custodes are for.
The Custodians killed 100,000 orks and took 3 losses in return.
Where's Lynata and Vakathi? I think they'd have a heart attack reading that.
It's not unheard of for Astartes and equivalents to be that badass, though. Studio fluff outright states that 10,000 Salamanders held the line, alone, against "over 1 million" orks for an entire year of open warfare. Thats' 1 Space Marine for every 100 orks. In open combat. No hit and run tactics, no guerilla warfare. Just manfighting.
Considering that Custodes make Astartes look like chumps, it's not beyond the realm of implausibility that they could perform a far more impressive feat.
I think the more significant analysis is this. The power level of Astartes and Custodes varies like everything else godly when the writer wants and elsewhere when they don't. This can even function between two factions of SM fighting one another. For example, read about Thousand Sons and watch as Custodes are slaughtered with impunity. Read an IG book and CSM will be butchered with ease. Read a SM versus CSM and likely the CSM will be butchered like a joke. Behold the might of the Narrative! Personally I just like to blame lucky rolls
A group of super-elites clogging a limited space for Daemons to punch through. But if this is the case, what is stopping a "Primal" from just reaching through the warp with one giant hand and snatching them all up, before knocking on the door with their collective heads?
Or are we going to find out the Custodes are immortals or something, and when they die, they just get back up and keep fighting.
This should be examined more closely. On that note, the Emperor couldn't have been placed on the Golden Throne during the seige because, what happened when he unclenched his keigel excercises and went to go fight Horus? What stopped the daemons from breaching the Imperial Palace then?
Malcador sat on the throne while The Emperor was confronting Horus. The brief period that he did so consumed and destroyed him.
2014/06/12 19:28:01
Subject: The Daemonic breach on Terra and the Custodes.
Also, it's not that the story of the Custodes defending the breach sounds like 300... it's that 300 sounds like the story of the Custodes defending the breach.
(obvs kidding, because both are based on a historic event)
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
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