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I just want to be absolutely clear that a unit that is conjure is not treated as arriving from reserves by this interpretation and for Coteaz ability.

I disagree vehemently. I just want that established ,because there are going to be some problems down the line because of this I'm just in the middle of drinking and catching up on TV. (GOT was awesome this week) and don't have time to go through all of my digital codexes right now to find every specific ability that does not affect Summoned Daemons at all.

Hollismason wrote:
I just want to be absolutely clear that a unit that is conjure is not treated as arriving from reserves by this interpretation and for Coteaz ability.

It is absolutely clear that a conjured daemon unit is not treated as arriving from reserves. They just count as having done so after they have arrived.


Whether or not this was what GW intended is anybody's guess.

When you're using a several year old codex and a brand new rulebook, there's going to be issues. No. No daemons through the webway. Common sense. Ancient codex vs brand new rulebook.

Codex overules rule book so yes they can use the portal.

Honestly though it's a bit stupid and needs an faq.

Shingen wrote:
Codex overules rule book so yes they can use the portal.

only matters if there's a contradiction which is not the case here

Shingen wrote:
Codex overules rule book so yes they can use the portal.

Honestly though it's a bit stupid and needs an faq.

when there is a contradiction. there isnt one here - the unit is NOT arriving from reserves. It deepstrikes, and from then on it is counted as having arrived from reserves. It essentially gets to the past without ever hitting the present.

Explain to me how then that Coteaz ability works on units that Arrive Via Deepstrike.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

This states pretty clearly that a model must be in reserve in order to deepstrike, it also states that it arrives via deepstrike. Not via reserves.Nothing actually "arrives" via Reserve, reserves is a place that things come from, they arrive via a specific method, flying, moving onto the board, or Deep Strike.

By your own weird logic, that the phrase "having arrived" because it is in the past tense that it at no point has a present tense which is false.As we can definitively use the words, when referencing that unit phrases such as " What is that unit doing ?" " It is arriving via, deepstrike, It is arriving from reserve".

This whole argument is wrong , simply because it's based on the fact that one, that those are seperate sentences and that having arrived is not the past tense of the phrase arrives deepstrike, which is why it has that phrase. Those are actually the same statement and that is why we have sentence structure.


When the power is resolved, Jack then arrives via Limousine, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Copenhagen for all rules purposes.

Now that may look silly, but it illustrates my point.

What method does Jack use to arrive ? Limousine
Where is jack arriving from? Copenhagen

Those are two different statements, having arrived is a direct reference and the past tense of arrives in reference to how jack is arriving and where he is arriving from. You could also say, Jack arrived from Copehagen, arriving via Deepstrike.

Reserves is a place not a method of delivery, it's a place that you come from , that you arrive from. It is not a method of delivery.

Except the unit CANNOT be in reserves "really", because otherwise you have broken the rules at the start of the game

THe unit, functionally, does not exist in any form until it (successfully) deepstrikes onto the board. At that point it now counts as having arrived from reserves.

It never was in reserves

Owning Player, Opposing Player and Controlling Player-
The owning player is always the player who 'owns' the model in question - the one who has included the model in his army.
Friendly and Enemy models: all models on the same side are friendly models. While DE and Daemon allies do count as enemy models, the requirement for use of the portal seems to be Owning, not friendly.

Looks like you cannot initially use the webway, but it's totally good to go after that.

What's more interesting, is that eldar can get gate of infinity and they can walk out of the webway rather than deep striking. Likewise, you could veil of darkness and web-way walk.

Dosent matter they are desparate allies can't use the dark eldar stuff. So it's all moot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except the unit CANNOT be in reserves "really", because otherwise you have broken the rules at the start of the game

THe unit, functionally, does not exist in any form until it (successfully) deepstrikes onto the board. At that point it now counts as having arrived from reserves.

It never was in reserves

But "treated as for all rules purposes" really makes a mess of that argument. How can you treat them as coming from reserves if they are not allowed to be treated as coming from reserves?

Again the method of travel is deepstrike and they arriving from reserve, hence the phrase " having arrived from reserve".

They are treated as arriving from reserves for rules purposes.


There are two things that are important, it arrives via deepstrike, it is treated as having arrived from reserve.

How is it getting to the board?

From Deep Strike?

Where is it coming from?

It is coming from Reserves.

Hollismason wrote:
Again the method of travel is deepstrike and they arriving from reserve, hence the phrase " having arrived from reserve".

They are treated as arriving from reserves for rules purposes.


There are two things that are important, it arrives via deepstrike, it is treated as having arrived from reserve.

How is it getting to the board?

From Deep Strike?

Where is it coming from?

It is coming from Reserves.

So it was in Reserves?

Did you declare it was in Reserves at the start of the game, as per the rules?

If not, why are you breaking the rules?

Hollismason wrote:


They are treated as arriving from reserves for rules purposes.

No, they are treated as having arrived from reserves, which is not the same thing.

Where is it coming from?.

Your miniatures case, probably.

It was never in reserves, so it can't be coming from there. It is just treated as if it did.

How do you satisfy the range requirement when summoning if they come from the webway?

Yeah that was the other problem I have with it.

Lungpickle wrote:
Dosent matter they are desparate allies can't use the dark eldar stuff. So it's all moot.

What page is that on?

Page 127 says that they are treated just like allies of Convenience, and they the One Eye Open special rule (on a 1 they do nothing that turn).
Under allies of Convenience they cannot:
Move within 1" of each other
Benefit from the Warlord Trait
Be joined by IC
Not counted as friend units for targeting psychic powers, abilities and so on.
Cannot use special abilities to repair vehicles.
Cannot re-roll or modifers to reserves rolls.
They ARE affect by attacks and specials rules/abilities that affect enemy units.
They ARE treated as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, attacked in close combat, or targeted with psychic powers.

Webway portal just requires the models to be in your army, which allies of Convenience, Desperate Allies and Come the Apocalypse all are.
Are they your army? Check.
Are they in reserve? Check (not summoned daemons the round summoned, only ongoing reserves or other normally reserved units)
Come the Apocalypse allies seem to meet all the requirements to Webway. If not, please give me a page number as I've read through Allies (p127) and Generals Principles (p14).

The problem, Matt, is that in the beginning of the book they define 'enemy' as models controlled by your opponent. (In the beginning of the book under the section about 'Owning Player, Opposing Player, Controlling Player.') If you're treating them as 'enemies,' then you must treat them as models controlled by your opponent (for the purposes of interactions with wargear) which means that they cannot use the WWP.

Hollis - yes, they arrive using Deepstrike. Only once they HAVE arrrived are they treated as having come from reserves.

They have NOT present tense come from reserves, because (as you keep ignoring, to no help to your argument) this wold break a rule - namely that you have to specify before the game starts the disposition of all your forces in reserve, which your incorrect contention would mean that this unit, which doesnt exist, you have to specify as in reserve. Yet, they dont exist, so you CANNOT do this. Meaning your assumption is breaking a rule.

Instead of creating the assumption you are making whcih then breaks a rule, the simpler resolution is to NOT assume they meant something other than what they wrote: that this unit, which was NOT in reserve, is treated as having arrived from reserves after Deepstrike.

Nothing more, nothing less.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The problem, Matt, is that in the beginning of the book they define 'enemy' as models controlled by your opponent. (In the beginning of the book under the section about 'Owning Player, Opposing Player, Controlling Player.') If you're treating them as 'enemies,' then you must treat them as models controlled by your opponent (for the purposes of interactions with wargear) which means that they cannot use the WWP.

That's not what it says actually.
Lets say I'm playing dark eldar and daemons. You're playing IG and Space Marines.
Page 14 under Owning player, opposing player and controlling player says that the Owning player is the player who 'owns' the model in question - the one who has included the model in his army.

Ok, daemons are my models, and they are in my army. I'm the Owning player.
The Controlling player is the player currently in command of the model. That again, is me. You're not deep striking my daemons. I'm deep striking my daemons.

Friendly vs Enemy models - Models on the same side are friendly models. Models controlled by the opposing side are enemy models.
Allies: Come the Apoc are enemy models.

So all models controlled by you are enemy models (IG and Space Marines)
Some models controlled by me are enemy models (daemons)
That does not mean that enemy models (daemons) are controlled by you, because you do not own them, and they are not in your army.
Still waiting for a page reference for wargear. I can't find it in 7th rules.


Back to the topic on hand; you cannot summon into the portal, because you must abide by the range requirement of the psychic power, which is a deep strike within 6 or 12 inches, depending on the power.


-Matt

While I don't think it's entirely definitive one way or the other, here's my completely legal procedure for executing the rules:

Take your daemons you think you might be summoning and put them out for your opponent to see, then tell them that they will be arriving via Deep Strike.
Then, show him your list that doesn't include them and let him know that the conditional is that, for them to arrive via Deep Strike, you will have to summon them. Now, your units are in Reserve, because, in order for a unit to even have the possibility to arrive via Deep Strike, they absolutely, unequivocally, MUST be in Reserve.

To elaborate further, a unit being "held in Reserve" is a unit which could have been deployed and instead was withheld. If it is found to be "impossible for any reason", such as not having paid the points to include a unit in your army, then it is "placed in Reserve." Summoned units shown in this way are, therefore, in Reserve but not "held in Reserve".

Now, as soon as the WWP is played, it says that from then on any unit arriving (as in - in the process of arriving) from Reserve may instead move on from the marker. No conditionals on that. At any point.

Now, go ahead and execute a conjuration. You place the first model from the unit within the range of the spell and roll for scatter. Now, if you so choose, you can instead move them in from the WWP marker, even, to my mind, before rolling on the mishap table if the model would have landed illegally. Heck, you could even go ahead and roll and, as long as the roll came up as your opponent places your model (and not Ongoing Reserves or Destroyed), you could still have it come in through the WWP because at any point you can override any means of arriving from Reserve.

Now, move them in how? Well, it's strongly implied that they move using the standard rules for moving. But we'll be conservative and go ahead and say that this isn't correct. Then, instead, they are placed on the marker, or as near as possible without being on another model or unstable footing, and then they are "immobilised". This means, that for vehicles arriving from the WWP, they are auto immobilised (except that vehicles explicitly can't use the WWP ) and for other models, which have no rules for being immobilised, they come on as close as possible to the WWP and end their movement there, and are them free to move as normal in subsequent phases.

You do not have permission ot declare something not part of your army in Reserve. Falls at the first hurdle.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You do not have permission ot declare something not part of your army in Reserve. Falls at the first hurdle.

If that's true then there is absolutely no way to use a conjuration spell. A unit MUST be in reserve to arrive via deep strike. Conjured units arrive via deep strike and yet are not in your army list... see where I'm going with this?

TerraFirst! wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You do not have permission ot declare something not part of your army in Reserve. Falls at the first hurdle.

If that's true then there is absolutely no way to use a conjuration spell. A unit MUST be in reserve to arrive via deep strike. Conjured units arrive via deep strike and yet are not in your army list... see where I'm going with this?

A unit does not have to be in Reserves to arrive by Deep Strike. Conjured units are a good example. Units arriving via Gate of Infinity aren't in Reserve either.

TerraFirst! wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You do not have permission ot declare something not part of your army in Reserve. Falls at the first hurdle.

If that's true then there is absolutely no way to use a conjuration spell. A unit MUST be in reserve to arrive via deep strike. Conjured units arrive via deep strike and yet are not in your army list... see where I'm going with this?

The rules for conjuration are more advanced than the basic rules for deepstrike, so you can actually DS conjured units as the conjuration powers dictate.

I.E. You can use conjurations withing the confines of the RAW.

 Jimsolo wrote:

A unit does not have to be in Reserves to arrive by Deep Strike. Conjured units are a good example. Units arriving via Gate of Infinity aren't in Reserve either.

And the statement, "Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike," doesn't apply to conjured units, how? Similarly, if you really want to nitpick, a conjured unit arrives by deep strike, where as a unit affected by gate of infinity uses the rules for deep strike - obviously two very different things, the slight difference of which, allows me to draw all manner of conjectured and biased conclusions as has been done previously by none other than yourself.

TerraFirst! wrote:
And the statement, "Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike," doesn't apply to conjured units, how? Similarly, if you really want to nitpick, a conjured unit arrives by deep strike, where as a unit affected by gate of infinity uses the rules for deep strike - obviously two very different things, the slight difference of which, allows me to draw all manner of conjectured and biased conclusions as has been done previously by none other than yourself.

Because Conjured units do not even exist when reserves are declared, so there is no way a conjured unit can ever "begin the game in Reserve"

Has anyone else begun to suspect that Terrafirst! is a sockpuppet for Hollismason?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because Conjured units do not even exist when reserves are declared, so there is no way a conjured unit can ever "begin the game in Reserve"

...except that they do. Either as an actual physical model which, by my reading must be placed in reserve at the beginning of the game or is not able to be summoned (ie. no hiding it in you pocket and pulling it out later to everyone's surprise) or as an abstract concept (eg conscious manifestations of the warp).

Just because a rule gives you the ability to deep strike in an unusual circumstance doesn't mean that you get to ignore the part of deep strike which says you must start in reserve, especially when reserve is never defined and the way to satisfy both requirements is to state that any units not part of you detachments which might later be summoned are by default (or by declaration) in reserve.

DS says "the unit must start the game in Reserve"

The unit does not exist to be put into reserve so they can never "begin the game in Reserve" This is demonstrably true.

TerraFirst! wrote:
...except that they do. Either as an actual physical model which, by my reading must be placed in reserve at the beginning of the game or is not able to be summoned (ie. no hiding it in you pocket and pulling it out later to everyone's surprise)

The DS rules are talking about units, not the physical models...

or as an abstract concept (eg conscious manifestations of the warp).

This has no basis in the actual rules.