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 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, you can't just turn philosophical principles around.

Otherwise I'd have to assume that your only reason to post here is malice.

You haven't heard the extension of Hanlon's Razor before then?

Don't assume malice when stupidity is an adequate explanation. At least, not the first time.

 Yonan wrote:

Never assume stupidity when there's a proven track record of "malice".

Even organizations with a track record malice can still be stupid.

There's nothing wrong with assuming that GW is going to screw it's fanbase. That's been it's pirmary business strategy since hte LotR bubble burst. But it's a rebuttable presumption, and given that there's a reasonably consistent trend to include only citadel models in the codex (save the Vendetta, oddly), I think it's a reach to see this as malicious. Particularly given how rare looted wagons were.

Even if it were malicious, it was stupidly so. I mean, how many people really need rules for looted wagons?

 Yonan wrote:
That is literally what happened - it was removed from the codex and then sold separately in white dwarf.

Was it? It seems unlikely they removed it from the codex and then re-did the layout to exclude it. Even that counter-argument aside, what is the evidence that they did? And what is the evidence that this would be their reason rather than something like "we don't actually make a model for this" or "this is taking us over our page count and we want to get something else in, instead" and so forth.

But first and foremost, what is the evidence that it was removed from the codex? You cannot progress further along this path of argument without any.

 Yonan wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, you can't just turn philosophical principles around.

Otherwise I'd have to assume that your only reason to post here is malice.

You haven't heard the extension of Hanlon's Razor before then?

Don't assume malice when stupidity is an adequate explanation. At least, not the first time.

Apparently no one else has heard of that particular one, at least no one that could have been found in a quick research on the web.

In either case, can you prove malice in any of of GW's decisions? I highly doubt it.

My only complaint is the difficulty in getting the issue after the release week. official rules should always be available.

also if you have to mail order a single issue its SUPER expensive

 Jidmah wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, you can't just turn philosophical principles around.

Otherwise I'd have to assume that your only reason to post here is malice.

You haven't heard the extension of Hanlon's Razor before then?

Don't assume malice when stupidity is an adequate explanation. At least, not the first time.

Apparently no one else has heard of that particular one, at least no one that could have been found in a quick research on the web.

In either case, can you prove malice in any of of GW's decisions? I highly doubt it.

Talk to anyone is upper management and the malice in their voice over vets and the online community is tangible.

Oh and then there is this:

This does not prove that reducing stores to one person was out of malicious intent. It just proves that he fails as person because he insults people rather than explaining his "great concept" to them.

 Polonius wrote:
Even if it were malicious, it was stupidly so. I mean, how many people really need rules for looted wagons?

Oh I'm not denying it was stupid too - more veterans are falling by the day, this is just another in a long line of moves that are harming long term profit in the quest for short term profit. But there was definite intent behind the action, ergo "malicious". GW started with the copying of "DLC" with the release of lots of overpriced for the quantity of product dataslates and mini-dexes. This looted wagon is an extension of that, by selling it on day one after they saw how well it worked in the video games industry and decided they wanted a piece of the pie. It's already been said in this thread by at least one Ork player - "I don't buy white dwarf, but I'll buy this one for the rules."

Not sure how many people need the rules for looted wagons - I'm still sore that they removed the artillery from IG so I may be projecting here ; p Still expecting it to be added back in like this.

 Jidmah wrote:
Apparently no one else has heard of that particular one, at least no one that could have been found in a quick research on the web.

Strange since to ensure I got it exactly right, I *copied it* from the first google search result. It's a similar concept to "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." You can write off the first time it happens as stupidity. Not the 20th time.
---
edit: The only reason we're saying "malice" here is because of the whole malice/stupidity reference. It's not malice, which is why I keep " " ing it. It's codl hearted business logic that has pure profit as the motive, not creating a good product for your customers. It is also stupid as it is only short term profit at the expense of long term.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Talk to anyone is upper management and the malice in their voice over vets and the online community is tangible.

Is that "upper management" in general? Because some of us here are upper management (or skimming it, at least). Or is this just the upper management of GW? In which case, who did you talk to?

 Jidmah wrote:
This does not prove that reducing stores to one person was out of malicious intent. It just proves that he fails as person because he insults people rather than explaining his "great concept" to them.

Okay.

How about stopping indies from selling across borders? Or selling online at all? Completely cutting off areas from getting warhammer at a decent price. Then turning around and saying they were surprised the independent stores didn't do as well that year.

How about saying that switching to resin costs them 1/10th the cost of pewter then jacking the prices up on failcast by up to 50%? Then claim that the extra cost was to pay for the machines and quality control on something that had a 66% failure rating for the first year. Then release liquid green stuff with the tag line "To fix the holes and bubbles", then as returns were getting drastic pushed a company policy to try and sell liquid green stuff and dissuade the customer from returning it?

Or suing no name authors over "space marine" or claiming they own greek letters and roman numerals?

How about abandoning an edition 23 months in instead of making an FAQ only to release what is basically the exact same product.


This is corporate buggery at its finest, I consider that malice.






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 knas ser wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

Talk to anyone is upper management and the malice in their voice over vets and the online community is tangible.

Is that "upper management" in general? Because some of us here are upper management (or skimming it, at least). Or is this just the upper management of GW? In which case, who did you talk to?

Upper management in GW. I used to work for the company and still have friends all over in the company and the stories I hear and the things I see, and what I've personally experienced just makes me shake my head. Its a mix of zealous pride and ignorance, but logic and treating the customer respectfully is not there, GW would rather burn itself to the ground then admit fault and change.

 Yonan wrote:
edit: The only reason we're saying "malice" here is because of the whole malice/stupidity reference. It's not malice, which is why I keep " " ing it. It's codl hearted business logic that has pure profit as the motive, not creating a good product for your customers. It is also stupid as it is only short term profit at the expense of long term.

My point exactly. Just because they are ruining the game and, in turn, their business, doesn't mean that they are doing it on purpose. Out of arrogance, idiocy and blindness, they are stubbornly doing what they think is the right thing to do. Anything that can't be directly contributed to greed (like price-hikes or repackaging boxes to contain half the models at half the price) shouldn't be contributed to it.
It is very likely that they axed the looted wagon in their blind frenzy over their lost lawsuit, and then later realized that 90% of the looted wagons out there are actually mostly made up of models they are selling, rather than some third party stuff. At that time the codex war probably already closed and done, so they decided to give it to us anyways, hoping to keep selling eldar, IG, tau and SM vehicles to ork players for looting.

Sounds much more convincing than the master plan of selling $5 white dwarfs, does it?

They're like made-for-tv-movie corporate villains, they're malicious and blundering at the same time.

Makumba wrote:


have you seen the things stats and cost ? If that ain't the main way to transport stuff around , then I don't know what is

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Ork-Trukk

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Ork-Battlewagon

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I have to say, it really seems that GW cannot win with some people.

For the last 2-3 years, people have griped (and rightfully so) how WD was nothing more than an advertisment with no real content, and pined for the days when WD actually had stuff like rules and scenarios.

Now GW has brought back special scenarios and unit rules to WD, and people now gripe that its a "moneygrab".

Well, these are the first rules for WD, and they're hastily thrown in because GW realized people were VERY pissed off that models they had were being knocked out of the game (AGAIN... see Madboyz, Boarboyz, old Nob bikers, Squig Katapults, Pulsa Rokkits, etc., etc., etc.). The rules that they're putting out before the codex that will have them are not something to add value to WD for the consumer. They're there to test a new marketing model, whereby they release new units before the codex with rules in WD, so if people want to use these models they're selling while waiting another month (or more... WTF!) for the codex, they have to buy a magazine that is literally way overpriced. (There's no way you can convince me something isn't a ripoff price point when the company considers it a better idea to throw away dozens of them per location PER WEEK than offer them as back issues or find some way to recycle them.)

What I hope they get from that, however, is that people buy the models to play the games, they aren't just buying models because they're pretty (I know there's some exceptions). In my case, I picked up the last WD to use the rules from it, while I have no intention of buying the overpriced Mek Guns. The guns might look nice, but I can think of a lot better uses for that money.

It's already all over the net. It's a Looted Wagon from the last codex, which is basically just an open topped Rhino that costs 37 points.

It's a shame that GW is putting rules in WD only for them to be essentially day one DLC. It's so close yet so far, really. That being said, I don't see them doing this for anything they're actually releasing as a kit, unless it's a kit that comes out outside the codex release window. The pictures in the WD of the wagon are just a Leman Russ kitbashed with a Battlewagon.

No Ork player in their right mind would ever buy a Looted Wagon kit. Anyone who says they would is missing the point.

 Wilytank wrote:
No Ork player in their right mind would ever buy a Looted Wagon kit. Anyone who says they would is missing the point.

BUT if you throw a bunch of accessory sprues from various Ork kits (random ones at that) and it would be EPIC!

 Sigvatr wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
]
The problem is that people have their Looted Wagons.
They voted with their money, they told GW they loved the model and the idea!
So they decided to cash in on some extra.

Looted Wagons don't have a mode (well, they used to iirc...back...in the past...) so for GW, it's not possible to see how many people actually play them. Furthermore, I don't see what's stopping a Looted Wagon player from obtaining the rules outside the WD.

Also: how could OP miss out on a "Thanks, Obama!" joke?

There are looted wagon models, everyone else's vehicles. There has never been a model specifically called a "looted wagon"

The subject of this thread is a non complete issue, in my polite opinion, it's nothing more than overblown whining to the extreme.

Rules in white dwarf like this have been around before the internet. It's not DLC.

Rule #1. People will whine about GW no matter what they do.

 44Ronin wrote:
The subject of this thread is a non complete issue, in my polite opinion, it's nothing more than overblown whining to the extreme.

Rules in white dwarf like this have been around before the internet. It's not DLC.

Rule #1. People will whine about GW no matter what they do.

Considering they took it out of the actual codex to put in there, it pretty much counts as day one DLC, think of it as Disc locked DLC.

No, it's something they probably took out of the codex six-ish months ago then realized how much it would be missed so put it in WD a few weeks ago. There is only so much they can fit in the codex and for some reason looted wagons didn't make the cut. They could just have left it, but instead decided to put it in WD (And shortly available for a nominal amount as an ebook apparently).

 Steve steveson wrote:
No, it's something they probably took out of the codex six-ish months ago then realized how much it would be missed so put it in WD a few weeks ago. There is only so much they can fit in the codex and for some reason looted wagons didn't make the cut. They could just have left it, but instead decided to put it in WD (And shortly available for a nominal amount as an ebook apparently).

I'm sorry, what? That doesn't make any sense considering it's at max, two pages.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
No, it's something they probably took out of the codex six-ish months ago then realized how much it would be missed so put it in WD a few weeks ago. There is only so much they can fit in the codex and for some reason looted wagons didn't make the cut. They could just have left it, but instead decided to put it in WD (And shortly available for a nominal amount as an ebook apparently).

I'm sorry, what? That doesn't make any sense considering it's at max, two pages.

It's something that was removed to help sell the morkanaut and heavy guns. orky transport with boomgun.
They only put it back due too the outcry on the forums.

GW reading forums, or caring what their players think? You're a funny man!

 Yonan wrote:
GW reading forums, or caring what their players think? You're a funny man!

When enough people say I'm quitting or I won't be needing to buy that kit then. They listen, unless they think that the change will bring more sales than it loses.

They notice sales dropping and increase prices to counteract it (I half jest on the latter). There's every evidence that they don't listen to customers by the systematic shutting down of communication methods with them online and the extreme length of time for easy and oft discussed problems to get fixed, if ever.

First they came for the Tyranids, now they come for the Orks. Makes you think, who will GW's next victims be?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
First they came for the Tyranids, now they come for the Orks. Makes you think, who will GW's next victims be?

OY I,m the doom n gloom merchant here.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
First they came for the Tyranids, now they come for the Orks. Makes you think, who will GW's next victims be?

They cut a bunch out of the IG 'dex too : ( I can't wait for it all to be put back up for sale piecemeal!

 PrinceRaven wrote:
First they came for the Tyranids, now they come for the Orks. Makes you think, who will GW's next victims be?

Probably a good idea at this point to laminate all current FAQs for codices that have not yet gotten a hard-back codex.

The current Ork codex, as an example, is now totally compatible with 7th with the new FAQs, and obivously the newer codexo will be too. So you'd be able to pick which version you like best, assuming your opponent doesn't mind.