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On the bright side, Orks can at least still field Looted Wagons, we haven't seen hide nor tentacle of Ymgarl Genestealers, Mycetic Spores, the Parasite of Mortex or the Doom of Malan'tai. Except, of course, for the fluff entries of them all they kept in the Codex to taunt Tyranids players.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
No, it's something they probably took out of the codex six-ish months ago then realized how much it would be missed so put it in WD a few weeks ago. There is only so much they can fit in the codex and for some reason looted wagons didn't make the cut. They could just have left it, but instead decided to put it in WD (And shortly available for a nominal amount as an ebook apparently).

I'm sorry, what? That doesn't make any sense considering it's at max, two pages.

As I have said elsewhere, you have a choice between putting in 16 more pages or dropping something else. It's not simply a matter of "paste in another page boys!". There will always be choices about what does and what does not make the cut in any book. Some of those are physical limits, some are design choices on what you want to put within those physical limits. I would guess some time a long time back (probably when making the first hard back codex) it was decided that every codex will have X% of fluff, Y% rules and Z% art, with a certain number of pages. There will be some leeway on those numbers, but the editors have limits they have to work within. Looted wagons, rightly or wrongly, didn't make the cut within those numbers for whatever reason.

If the codexes were all the same size that argument might hold weight - but they're not. I have 2 of the new hardback codexes, SM and CSM. The SM book is significantly larger than the CSM book - 170 pages to 100. If there were strict limits this would not be the case, there is ample leeway for more or less content depending on what they choose to do.

However, the publisher they use does everything in 16s/ So 2 pages more c an mean 14 pages on top of the 2 are needed. That costs.

My sources suggested it was part of the "no model no entry" policy, but hadnt realised the backlash this would cause. Which means, of course, that they get spat on by the internet, as ever.

Which apparently means if you want mycetic spores, shout louder. However given theyre generally NOT made from GW kits, and most looted wagons I've seen ARE, then youre going to struggle there

In summary - not "day one DLC", and please tone down the ridiculous hyperbole; GW do enough bad stuff that criticising them for actually doing something player friendly (like when people critiscised about the 3 book rulebook set, complaining the A5 / standalone A4 wasnt available) gets tiresome.

What bothers me the most about this-

Was the Looted Wagon not even considered for the new Ork Codex, or was it an afterthought? Did it get cut for space limitations, or was the plan from the beginning to include it in White Dwarf? GW has Dataslates for all kinds of "crap" now. Want to know everything about a Bolter? Buy the $5 Bolter eBook. Want to know something about Lucious the Eternal? Buy the $5 eBook. I was astonished to find over 71 such eBooks on the GW website. Check it out here if you don't believe me. I'm very surprised that it didn't end up as an eBook. Adding it to White Dwarf fuels the conspiracy that it was done to promote more sales of White Dwarf. That doesn't add up as it's far, far cheaper and easier to make an eBook then get the Looted Wagon into White Dwarf. The production cost of an eBook is NOTHING compared to a magazine, and it has a far larger profit margin. And GW loves those profit margins. This also seems to go against the latest philosophy in the wake of the Chapter House court ruling about making rules for a non-existent model. Will there be an "official" GW Ork Looted Wagon kit soon?

Adding the Looted Wagon to White Dwarf just doesn't make any sense.

edit I am VERY HAPPY that GW did add the Looted Wagon back into the game. Rereading my post seems to make me come off as ungrateful. I can also HOPE that we see more of this kind of thing in the future. In White Dwarf, as an eBook, or maybe like in the old 3rd/4th edition Chapter Approved series, doesn't mater the medium so much. Just to see the new/old content added to armies.

One of the reasons why all my veteran friends said they stopped buying White Dwarf is because "it used to actually have rules".

So is the issue here primarily with the timing of these Looted Wagon rules, or do most people not want any rules in White Dwarf?

GW wanting to prop up sales for white dwarf seems the obvious reason for doing it there rather than in it's own dataslate. It could be the hope that by getting people to try the magazine, they'll keep buying it, so rather than a one-off purchase, it'll be an income stream for a long time to come. GW still doesn't realize that the free resources on the internet are so much better than the content in WD that it's actually really sad. Thanks to the wonders of the internet, I've seen the new white dwarfs and they're honestly not even worth pirating to me. I'd much rather spend time in the dakka gallery than look at the pictures in WD, get painting tips int he tutorial section rather than WD guides, read players battle reports - or watch them on youtube - than read the lame manufactured ones from GW.

Hmm... that turned into a rant.

 jasper76 wrote:
So is the issue here primarily with the timing of these Looted Wagon rules, or do most people not want any rules in White Dwarf?

Are you familiar with the "day one dlc" concept? The problem with it is that it's widely believed that the day one dlc is content that was cut from the game to sell individually to the customers as a way to increase revenue, at the expense of selling a single complete product with the initial purchase. Rules in white dwarf would be great - if they weren't rules cut from the previous codex, but rather were new rules developed mid-cycle for a codex that has been out for a long time already. I'm not terribly familiar with Orks, but an IG example of good rules to put in white dwarf would be a new Leman Russ variant or a light infantry guardsman squad variant, that if good would be included in the next codex.

 jasper76 wrote:
One of the reasons why all my veteran friends said they stopped buying White Dwarf is because "it used to actually have rules".

So is the issue here primarily with the timing of these Looted Wagon rules, or do most people not want any rules in White Dwarf?

Yeah, here is the guff- White Dwarf used to be a monthly magazine. Now it's a monthly and weekly magazine. The monthly magazine is US$12, and the weekly is US$4. To buy an entire month of White Dwarf will cost you US$38. Arguably, if you purchase the entire months worth of weekly magazines, then you're seen most of the content in the monthly Visions magazine. Can you imagine buying a codex for US$50, then having to shell out another US$38 just to get all the rules for your codex? That would suck, and I can see GW doing just that.

The Looted Wagon is a "base line" model/entry for the Orks. It should have been included in the Codex. The only way I could compare it would be using the far more popular Codex: Space Marines. You buy the Codex, only to discover there is no Predator tank entry. There are a ton of references to it, but no actual rules or entry for it. GW then provides you with a WD article "Space Marine Predator Tank". Now I've just spent US$54 for my Space Marines just so I could have all the "Base Line" unit rules.

Now if the rules for a Looted Wagon had been in the original Ork Codex, and this WD article was a varient, i.e.; "Looted Evil Suns Wagon- Now With More Red Paint!" this would be a totally different discussion.

Gotcha

Yeah, Day 1 DLC is crap, be it video games or tabletop games.

Yep, and if people support it it'll only get worse. Thankfully PC gamers can be quite vocal in their discontent and the practice is now widely condemned and a very risky proposition. Hopefully we can help prevent it happening on the tabletop too if we can convince enough people to delay gratification and not put up with the practice, so GW pursues more customer friendly policies.

Not exactly the same issue, but with the oh-so-many Tyranid formations, they're like 5 bucks a pop with at least 3 different slates available for download....and while most of our gaming group is OK with using them, at my flgs, it's just the opposite...rules that aren't in the codex or BRB are not respected at all there, apparently at the behest of disgruntled tournament players, and it has carried over to even pickup game expectations.

Yo an - except it falls down given the obviously rushed in WD layout. The looted wagon took space that something else would have gone into.

You're attributing to malic, and doing so quite over the top way, what seems to be an error.

I trust my sources saying otherwise to your wild conjecture

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yo an - except it falls down given the obviously rushed in WD layout.

You're aware of the criticisms of the quality of the new weekly white dwarf? Very poor editing and all that. A poor layout is evidence of nothing other than more of the same poor quality editing.

 Yonan wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yo an - except it falls down given the obviously rushed in WD layout.

You're aware of the criticisms of the quality of the new weekly white dwarf? Very poor editing and all that. A poor layout is evidence of nothing other than more of the same poor quality editing.

Missing info, copied in gorka layout, etc. Way more evidence than your malice concept. Neatly ties into what my friends have stated.

 Steve steveson wrote:
There is only so much they can fit in the codex and for some reason looted wagons didn't make the cut.

We know the reason: There's no "official" model for it that they sell. They're getting rid of anything for which they don't currently have a model they're actively selling. It's their way of sticking it to companies that come along and fill in the gaps in their product line.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
(like when people critiscised about the 3 book rulebook set, complaining the A5 / standalone A4 wasnt available)

Eh, I have to admit, I'm not a fan of that one any more. The one book is heavy enough (I swear there's no way it should feel as heavy as it does, but it feels pretty hefty in my bag), one of the books is just pretty pictures and advertisements (with no useful information), and the last is a fluff book which I really don't need. If they're breaking the books up, they could print extra rulebooks and just sell those separate for a much lower cost for people who don't need a coffee table advertisement book or need/want the fluff book. *That* would be utilizing the book split in a manner friendly to the customers.

I suspect they'll do that at some point, but it's like the reason they're waiting on updating Dark Vengeance, they want to make sure they sell plenty of copies of the full sets first.

In the end, while it really should have made its way back into the base codex, I suppose we should be grateful it was kept around at all. I never fielded them at all in my time playing thus far (about a year or so), as I felt my points were better spent on Bikes or Kopters. I prefer mobility over a gimmicky and easy to blow up vehicle. But if they are revamping the thing to make it worth a damn, then I'd consider paying for the magazine just to have the small supplement.

It may sound as if I'm lethargic about it, and that would be because I am. I probably still won't field them that much unless the rumors of a solid Str8 pie plate + transport capacity combo is true. If it can get Boyz across the field with some bite in the process, I'd be willing to swap a Trukk or two from my usual lists and use LW instead. If they are still crap...well...then I'm still not out anything.

Erik- premium product. The big rule book has always come first (or only). Yes, they could sell it separately - but why would they reduce their own margins? They know how many they're likely to sell at each price point.

It's the same everywhere. Car manufacturers release the larger engines / higher specs then follow up with budget models, etc. It works.

 jasper76 wrote:
Not exactly the same issue, but with the oh-so-many Tyranid formations, they're like 5 bucks a pop with at least 3 different slates available for download.....

$18 per dataslate, actually.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Not exactly the same issue, but with the oh-so-many Tyranid formations, they're like 5 bucks a pop with at least 3 different slates available for download.....

$18 per dataslate, actually.

With the steam sale just starting, it brings into focus again exactly why that price is a *little* hard to justify!

People that think they "accidentally" left them out of the codex are kidding themselves. If they were so concerned about not letting the community down, they could have released these, for free, on their website, or added them into the official faq. GW would not have had them ready to go and print in white dwarf so quickly.

There weren't concerned about letting people down, they were concerned about ork players no longer buying GW models to build looted wagon and ork players leaving the game because their army of looted wagons have become invalidated.

Even GW knows that they have not way to justify kicking someone in the teeth for buying their models, which is what looted wagon players do, unlike all the other stuff that has disapeared for not having a model.

codex out

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Erik- premium product. The big rule book has always come first (or only). Yes, they could sell it separately - but why would they reduce their own margins? They know how many they're likely to sell at each price point.

I know how many they can sell and all. And while a business should make money, it's instances like this where they put money so far ahead of the customer that it's going to wind up biting them in the ass in the long run (and has already started doing so). They know that the gamers would rather buy their overpriced standalone book than pay for two more overpriced books they don't need or want, but they also know the gamers will want to play with their friends and they can shove out the most expensive version at first or just keep it like that and make more off of it at the expense of the customers.

My point, really, is that the new rulebook set wasn't done for the customers' sake, it wasn't a gesture of goodwill from GW. If they cared about the customers so much, they would have come out with the rulebook separate.


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 Yonan wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Not exactly the same issue, but with the oh-so-many Tyranid formations, they're like 5 bucks a pop with at least 3 different slates available for download.....

$18 per dataslate, actually.

With the steam sale just starting, it brings into focus again exactly why that price is a *little* hard to justify!

For $4, I can get "The Bureau: X-Com Declassified." I was holding off on it, because I'm not sure how much I'd be into the gameplay, though it does seem fun.

But then considering that's the price of a weekly throw-away pamphlet from Games Workshop, it seems like a huge bargain suddenly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orock wrote:
People that think they "accidentally" left them out of the codex are kidding themselves. If they were so concerned about not letting the community down, they could have released these, for free, on their website, or added them into the official faq. GW would not have had them ready to go and print in white dwarf so quickly.

They didn't, hence the errors like "Unit Composition" listing "1 Gorkanaut." They copied the Gorkanaut page, threw in a picture of someone's converted vehicle, and slapped a slightly edited version of the current rules into that template. It's not even remotely hard to do that, especially as WD is being thrown together quickly every week, and put together in a computer program before being sent to the printer. It's also very likely that something got cut out to make room for it.

 Orock wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Considering the cost of Warhammer in general as a hobby, didnt think 4 bucks would be that much of a big deal

4 dollar starbucks drinks aren't a big deal. 300 of them a year is. Nickel and diming you for something you should be getting with your purchase is something people before our generations would have never put up with. its an insult. Nickel and dime extra charges that you don't notice now a days are why people cant afford homes anymore. Look at what we pay for now that we dident used to.

TV. TV was with rabbit ears, and commercials paid the studios what they needed to produce and broadcast. Now we pay a company for the privelige of watching already paid for content.
Computers. They weren't commonplace where everyone had one, sometimes 2 or 3 as today. Constant upgrades and fixing.
Phones. The bills were a fraction of what they are now inflated for today, even with paying for long distance. Also planned obsolescence of things like the Iphone, where you simply HAVE to have a new one every 2 years.
Cars engineered to last 10 years or less, when they used to make them so well many classics are still driven today.

Nickel and diming like this has been for the last 25 years THE biggest profit for effort endeavors society has come up with yet.

Don't accept low quality products because something else you can buy later comes along and fixes that.

To be fair, computers weren't commonplace because a 10 MB HDD used to cost 3,000 dollars. Now if you spend 3,000 dollars on an entire computer, even before adjusting for 30 years of inflation... well, you're probably spending way the hell too much. A modern gaming computer is something you can get for under a thousand dollars, especially if you build it yourself.

Also, my desktop has more computing power than was used in the entire Apollo 11 mission. Right now I'm using that kind of power to get offended about something someone said about the 4 computers I own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
There weren't concerned about letting people down, they were concerned about ork players no longer buying GW models to build looted wagon and ork players leaving the game because their army of looted wagons have become invalidated.

Even GW knows that they have not way to justify kicking someone in the teeth for buying their models, which is what looted wagon players do, unlike all the other stuff that has disapeared for not having a model.

...Squats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yonan wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Not exactly the same issue, but with the oh-so-many Tyranid formations, they're like 5 bucks a pop with at least 3 different slates available for download.....

$18 per dataslate, actually.

With the steam sale just starting, it brings into focus again exactly why that price is a *little* hard to justify!

I just paid 25 dollars to change my Shaman in World of Warcraft from a bipedal panda into a good guy space demon-squid.

It seems like the looted wagon was included in WD because people didn't want it removed from codex, and it was removed from the codex.

sounds like GW listened to its customers and did something positive, but then charged some money for it. Less like they decided to hold back a model and put it in WD to make people pay more money for it. If they had wanted to do that it would have just been a datalsate DLC thing. Recently GW has been removing units from the rules that do not have models (parasite of mor, doom, etc) Look out dark eldar special HQ models

 Pouncey wrote:
...Squats.

Did that even happen during this millennium?

Erick - so essentially they should have just released a normal brb, and avoided this entitlement crap moaning?

Premise: first release is premium, rightly pointing out that the HOBBY is more than the rules for a game you can play

Consequent: release one large book, to hammer this point home. Inconveniences those that just want the rules

Or:

Consequent: release one set, giving a more convenient set for everybody, but still following this initial premise. More useful to everyone

Cons: people feel so entitled to have the rules in the format they want that GW get bitched at for doing a genuinely useful, for the gamer thing, but still doing what EVERYONE does and pushes premium first for early adopters.

No one has forced you to play the game. Or to now play 7th. If it is truly something awful - don't buy. Don't expect GW to care too much though

I am going to bump this post later when it is proved that:

GW comes out with dataslates that magically allow bikers to be troops again, something that was included in the now outdated book. It wont even be different watch. Warboss on a bike? nobs or boys on bikes are troops.

And another im sure that will make deff dreads and kans troops too. You will see. these options that should have been included at no extra cost to us will now cost.

 Orock wrote:
I am going to bump this post later when it is proved that:

GW comes out with dataslates that magically allow bikers to be troops again, something that was included in the now outdated book. It wont even be different watch. Warboss on a bike? nobs or boys on bikes are troops.

And another im sure that will make deff dreads and kans troops too. You will see. these options that should have been included at no extra cost to us will now cost.

We'll hold you to that.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Home?_requestid=2496452

Ghazs coming as a suppliment
already in warboss ed.

The Codex: Orks Warboss Edition contains a wealth of brutally kunnin’ Ork content including two books, an art wallet and brushed metal tactical objective tokens. This Webstore Exclusive Edition is only available in English and it is strictly limited to 2000 copies worldwide.

Presented in a chest with a hinged lid and detailed with a large Ork glyph, the Warboss Edition contains two volumes: a special edition of Codex: Orks and the brand new, never before seen special edition of Waaagh! Ghazghull: A Codex: Orks supplement. Each book is bound with a finish unique to this edition.