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All under the heading of Generating Psychic Powers in the psychic powers section. Literally looking at it, then it moves on to a new section.

Is it in the Section that states Manifesting powers? Nope it's under Generation of Powers. It is a way to generate powers.

The box with Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus is just after the section Number of Psychic Powers, and just before Generating Psychic Powers in my E-book.


Not that it matters, because there is a process for generating Psychic powers and Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus do not follow this process.

Is it a Psychic Power you receive? Do you use a method to get it? The yes, it was generated.

Hollismason wrote:
Is it a Psychic Power you receive? Do you use a method to get it? The yes, it was generated.

No it was not generated because the BRB defines how you generate powers, and there are two ways to do so. You get it as a bonus but it is never generated because power generation is a specific definition in the BRB.

There are specific rules on how to generate Psychic powers.

There are two options.

1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed. Or

2) The Psyker will generate random Psychic powers form the disciplines available to him.

Those are the only two ways to generate psychic powers.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 2nd graph).

and random generation works like this "To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6" (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 3rd graph).

and if they need to generate more than one. "If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated."(The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 4th graph).

So generation is rolling randomly or having the powers listed as per the actual RAW.

Got any rules quotes that say otherwise?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Is it a Psychic Power you receive? Do you use a method to get it? The yes, it was generated.

No it was not generated because the BRB defines how you generate powers, and there are two ways to do so. You get it as a bonus but it is never generated because power generation is a specific definition in the BRB.

There are specific rules on how to generate Psychic powers.

There are two options.

1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed. Or

2) The Psyker will generate random Psychic powers form the disciplines available to him.

Those are the only two ways to generate psychic powers.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 2nd graph).

and random generation works like this "To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6" (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 3rd graph).

and if they need to generate more than one. "If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated."(The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 4th graph).

So generation is rolling randomly or having the powers listed as per the actual RAW.

Got any rules quotes that say otherwise?

It is specifically under the heading Generation of Psychic powers.

(Actually it has its own section).

So no actual rules to refute the two ways The rules lay out that tell you how to generate Psychic powers?

Seems this is settled then.

:-) 'settled' is a strong term. There are two valid interpretations , one is clearly the rules as intended by the author. The other has the stronger argument with the lawyer hat on. So how would you play it, the way its intended or the way that benefits daemons? Only a daemon player is going to care. Alas if you take two psychic focuses, I bet every other game you're going to gave to go through this same argument ... is it worth it?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
:-) 'settled' is a strong term. There are two valid interpretations , one is clearly the rules as intended by the author. The other has the stronger argument with the lawyer hat on. So how would you play it, the way its intended or the way that benefits daemons? Only a daemon player is going to care. Alas if you take two psychic focuses, I bet every other game you're going to gave to go through this same argument ... is it worth it?

Well when one side can not refute the rules quotes and conclusions from said rules quotes it seems to be settled. There are not two valid interpretations as the rules clearly explain how to generate powers.

I already said how I would play it.

But I also know what the RAW says, and that is different to how some people will play it.

I already refuted it, there's no point and arguing with someone who refuses to acknowledge the simple fact that before the game if you get a psychic power you have generated it. We've shown that there are in fact multiple ways to generate psychic powers.

Go try it at at Tournament or anywhere else.

It's not "putting a lawyer cap on" it's purposefully being obtuse to the fact that those abilities do in fact generate psychic powers.

We've already explained that generate randomly and generate automatically or generate specifically are all still generating psychic powers. There are multiple ways to "generate" psychic powers, Psychic Focus and Chaos Focus are just two of them.

It's all literally in the section that is entitled Generating Psychic powers, want argue what a indention or statement or formatting of the book go right ahead and do that but it's not smart to because the only section that could be in is Generating Psychic powers , what other section do you think you'd put that in? Sorry that the formatting confuses you.

It's like a weird Simon says Semantic argument, well you didn't say Simon says generate.

Hollismason wrote:
I already refuted it,

Not successfully. There are no rules to back up your statements. I have shown rules that back up mine.

there's no point and arguing with someone who refuses to acknowledge the simple fact that before the game if you get a psychic power you have generated it.

That is not me refusing to acknowledge it, that it me following the actual rules for generation, which do not include Chaos Psychi Focus. CPF is never generated because to generate a power you either have it listed in your powers or you roll on a table available to you. that is it. If you think PF and CPF are generated how about you supply csome actual rules that say so. because I have not found any that say that.

We've shown that there are in fact multiple ways to generate psychic powers.

Not by using the actual rules you have not. in the rules thee are two ways to generate powers. Please cite some rules that allow you to generate powers without using the process laid out in the brb.

Go try it at at Tournament or anywhere else.

The appeal to authority has no bearing in a rules forum discussion.

It's not "putting a lawyer cap on" it's purposefully being obtuse to the fact that those abilities do in fact generate psychic powers.

If they do generate, please try to show some actual rules that say PF and CPF are generated. You still have not shown this.

We've already explained that generate randomly and generate automatically or generate specifically are all still generating psychic powers.

By your claims and no rules backing, sure, but you need rules backing and you have not given it.

There are multiple ways to "generate" psychic powers, Psychic Focus and Chaos Focus are just two of them.

Citation or it didnt happen. I only see two ways to generate in the BRB, does the BRB have a rules quote that says differently? if I missed it please post it, because you have not yet.

It's all literally in the section that is entitled Generating Psychic powers, want argue what a indention or statement or formatting of the book go right ahead and do that but it's not smart to because the only section that could be in is Generating Psychic powers , what other section do you think you'd put that in? Sorry that the formatting confuses you.

It's like a weird Simon says Semantic argument, well you didn't say Simon says generate.

The format does not confuse me, but thank you for the insults, they really enhance your argument...

Regardless what generating means or does..

it happens before the game, so by virtue of that it is never 'gained during the course of the game'.

I already have it's stated multiple times that you generate psychic powers before the game begins; there is one Wargear item that allows you to get them during the game.

It's literally in the first sentence. What's to refute the semantic and boring argument of it doesn't say generate?

We know it doesn't have to because grammatically Generate Randomly is a specific instruction on how to generate randomly not that the only way to generate powers is through random which is the crux of your argument and patently false.

Hollismason wrote:
I already have it's stated multiple times that you generate psychic powers before the game begins; there is one Wargear item that allows you to get them during the game.

It's literally in the first sentence. What's to refute the semantic and boring argument of it doesn't say generate?

We know it doesn't have to because grammatically Generate Randomly is a specific instruction on how to generate randomly not that the only way to generate powers is through random which is the crux of your argument and patently false.

Except the Rules give you two clear options for generating Psychic Powers.

Even the example says that you gain the primaris and not generate the primaris:

"For example, Stu has a Psyker in his army with a Mastery Level of 2. That Psyker knows two psychic powers, which will need to be generated. Stu decides to generate both of his psychic powers from the same discipline and so gains Psychic Focus, and thus that discipline’s primaris power." (Emphasis mine, The Psychic phase section, Number of Psychic Powers sub-section). See how they say he will need to generate two powers, and gains (Not generates) the primaris.

Generating and gaining are two separate things in the 40K rules.

I will restate and ask a question, please try to use rules to back up your statements as I have cited rules that confirm mine:

There are specific rules on how to generate Psychic powers.

There are two options.

1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed. Or

2) The Psyker will generate random Psychic powers form the disciplines available to him.

Those are the only two ways to generate psychic powers.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 2nd graph).

and random generation works like this "To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6" (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 3rd graph).

and if they need to generate more than one. "If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated."(The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 4th graph).

So generation is rolling randomly or having the powers listed as per the actual RAW.

Got any rules quotes that say otherwise?

1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed.

Applies to Chaos Focus and people who have marks as there is no way for them to no take it. It is in fact exactly like several other models that always have that Ability.

They always have that power, there for the 1st rule that you in fact quote as generating psychic powers applies to Chaos Focus.

Hollismason wrote:
1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed.

Applies to Chaos Focus and people who have marks as there is no way for them to no take it. It is in fact exactly like several other models that always have that Ability.

They always have that power, there for the 1st rule that you in fact quote as generating psychic powers applies to Chaos Focus.

Really, because I am not seeing the Primaris power listed for my Herald "The Changeling". The primaris is not listed in his entry.

So clearly your assertation is incorrect.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed.

Applies to Chaos Focus and people who have marks as there is no way for them to no take it. It is in fact exactly like several other models that always have that Ability.

They always have that power, there for the 1st rule that you in fact quote as generating psychic powers applies to Chaos Focus.

Really, because I am not seeing the Primaris power listed for my Herald "The Changeling". The primaris is not listed in his entry.

So clearly your assertation is incorrect.

Does your Herald have a mark? Or do you have a copy of the Chaos Daemon codex where your Heralds are not in fact Daemons? Because Chaos focus clearly states that Daemons that are psykers always have the Special rule / Ability chaos focus.

I guess then that with your codex none of your Monstrous Creatures have the smash abilities, move through cover etc.. which are rules give to them by the BRB.

The BRB gives all Psykers with that ability Chaos Focus which is a specific spell that they have because they are Marked Daemons and Psykers.

Hollismason wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed.

Applies to Chaos Focus and people who have marks as there is no way for them to no take it. It is in fact exactly like several other models that always have that Ability.

They always have that power, there for the 1st rule that you in fact quote as generating psychic powers applies to Chaos Focus.

Really, because I am not seeing the Primaris power listed for my Herald "The Changeling". The primaris is not listed in his entry.

So clearly your assertation is incorrect.

Does your Herald have a mark? Or do you have a copy of the Chaos Daemon codex where your Heralds are not in fact Daemons? Because Chaos focus clearly states that Daemons that are psykers always have the Special rule / Ability chaos focus.

Yes. The Changeling has the Daemon of Tzeentch special rule, but the changeling was only one example, how about a Daemon Prince. They can upgrade to Daemon of Tzeentch, but they can also upgrade to Daemon of Khorne instead, so they do not have the rule Daemon of... listed in their entry. Not that it matters, the rule states they will have the power listed, this is not the case for The Changeling, or any Daemon Princes...

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed" Both of the above do not have the Primaris listed so the Primaris is not generated this way...

I guess then that with your codex none of your Monstrous Creatures have the smash abilities, move through cover etc.. which are rules give to them by the BRB.

No, the Bloodthirster's entry gives him Smash because his unit type is Flying Monstrous Creature. So Smash is not given to him by the BRB it is given to him by his codex listing him as a FMC...

The BRB gives all Psykers with that ability Chaos Focus which is a specific spell that they have because they are Marked Daemons and Psykers.

Yes they get CPF, not sure what this has to do with generating Psychic powers though.

That is a rule that they have that makes it so they get a specific power. Is it not?

Or is it something else?

Cause it's pretty clear that if you have a Mark or are a Daemon of.. if a Psyker.

Then you get Chaos Focus special rule which gives you a specific power

But please argue some more about how that's not a special rule that applies to Daemons and gives them a specific spell.

Hollismason wrote:
That is a rule that they have that makes it so they get a specific power. Is it not?

Or is it something else?

Cause it's pretty clear that if you have a Mark or are a Daemon of.. if a Psyker.

Then you get Chaos Focus special rule which gives you a specific power

But please argue some more about how that's not a special rule that applies to Daemons and gives them a specific spell.

What is required is "In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed"

There are not any specific psychic powers listed in The Changeling or the Daemon Princes entries, so that is not how they generate the Primaris.

Having a power does not matter, Generating a power or gaining a power during the course of the game does.

Neither of which applies to Chaos Psychic Focus.

Which is Generated by Chaos Psychic Focus.

DR, when does the game start?
When does a model benefit from Psychic Focus/Chaos Psychic Focus?

 Happyjew wrote:
DR, when does the game start?
When does a model benefit from Psychic Focus/Chaos Psychic Focus?

The game starts sometime after the Seize the initiative roll, which is well after terrain is set up and after deployment, but I do not see what this has to do with the Generation of Psychic Powers.

A model benefits from Chaos Psychic Focus whenever "a Psyker has a Mark of Chaos or is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God"

For Psychic Focus, it benefits a model "if a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline"

But again what does this have to do with generating powers?

Hollismason wrote:
Which is Generated by Chaos Psychic Focus.

Incorrect. Chaos Psychic Focus never states that it is generated.

It gives you the two options on how Psykers generate their Psychic Powers. Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus are not listed in the list of two ways to Generate Psychic Powers.

Then what section in the book are they listed in and in what reference point do we have to take them.

If they are not generated how do they get there?

Does anyone who does not have a named power in their profile then not generate powers.

How is it not a special ability or rule that gives it a specific power.

Why do you think that it has to list in the army entry which it does by having a mark of chaos or a daemon, get the Chaos Focus ability which is a ability that gives a specific psychic power.

This whole argument is a semantic one, and silly because you seem to believe that the only powers that are "generated" are by two methods when clearly there are multiple methods on generating psychic powers.

It's listed literally in the section before Manifesting Powers, at this point it's irrelevant you are going to believe what you want to believe and say what you want to say, your obviously wrong and anyone who plays against you is going to tell you you are. No one agrees with you.

All arguments over rules are semantic ones...

That is the great thing about the RAW, it is what it is even if you disagree with it.

Fact remains there are two specific ways to generate powers as per the RAW:

There are two options.

1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed. Or

2) The Psyker will generate random Psychic powers form the disciplines available to him.

Those are the only two ways to generate psychic powers.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 2nd graph).

and random generation works like this "To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6" (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 3rd graph).

and if they need to generate more than one. "If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated."(The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 4th graph).

So generation is rolling randomly or having the powers listed as per the actual RAW.

You keep saying it like it is true but it's just not, I mean keep repeating it until for like ever it still doesn't make it a fact, and no not all arguments are over semantics, that's not even the correct usage of that word. I mean you're not even quoting the rules your just literally rewriting them as you see fit, that's not even what it says. You've just been paraphrasing.

I've already explained why it is in fact a generation of a spell. It's pretty clear that it is a special abilitly that allows the generation of a specific spell. I'm sorry you don't understand grammatical context. It's like you are interpreting the rules as if some sort of a weird 1950s robot, like you know the old ones where they're like " Instruct the computer to take out the trash" " Oh no the robot not seeing the period has destroyed the planet, quick confuse him with a ampersand".

It's just weird.

The basic rule book gives us meaning and defintion of what words mean in context of the rules as well as the units available to us. They modify the entries in the Army Rulebooks. That's why they don't have to write the rules in every book because they know we know to use the BRB as a reference. Daemons and Psykers who have Marks have a Special Ability called Chaos Focus now. They automatically generate a specific spell. That spell is that of their patron god. This disallows Psychic Focus.

I did quote the rules.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 2nd graph).

Is a direct quote complete with citation...

Hollismason wrote:
The basic rule book gives us meaning and defintion of what words mean in context of the rules as well as the units available to us. They modify the entries in the Army Rulebooks. That's why they don't have to write the rules in every book because they know we know to use the BRB as a reference. Daemons and Psykers who have Marks have a Special Ability called Chaos Focus now. They automatically generate a specific spell. That spell is that of their patron god. This disallows Psychic Focus.

(Emphasis mine)
The underlined is 100% incorrect.

They never generate the Primaris of their god, they automatically know the primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity, but that is not the same as generating a power, as to generate a power:

How to generate a power, Option 1:
"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers."

How to generate a power, Option 2:
"Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic Disciplines known to him. To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline; you will notice that the psychic powers are numbered between one and six – the power generated corresponds to the number rolled on the D6. If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated."

That is it, this is how you generate powers, something that does not happen with Chaos Psychic Focus.

Do you have any rules that state otherwise, if not please mark your posts How you would play it as what I have posted is RAW.

I'm in the no primaris camp.

Shingen wrote:
I'm in the no primaris camp.

That is how I would play it as well, but that is not what the RAW actually say.

It does and it doesn't, it's unclear so it makes sense until faq'd that you can't do it.

Shingen wrote:
It does and it doesn't, it's unclear so it makes sense until faq'd that you can't do it.

Actually, as I have proven with rules backing, the rules are pretty clear that you can have Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus, but I do not think many people will actually play that way.