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 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
DR, when does the game start?
When does a model benefit from Psychic Focus/Chaos Psychic Focus?

The game starts sometime after the Seize the initiative roll, which is well after terrain is set up and after deployment, but I do not see what this has to do with the Generation of Psychic Powers.

A model benefits from Chaos Psychic Focus whenever "a Psyker has a Mark of Chaos or is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God"

For Psychic Focus, it benefits a model "if a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline"

But again what does this have to do with generating powers?

It has nothing to do with generating powers.

However, when I asked I was unsure if you included army building (which takes place after mission selection) to be part of the game.

If so, then the model gains a power from a different discipline during the course of the game and would lose Psychic Focus. Note that Psychic Focus says nothing about generating powers from other disciplines in game, only gaining them.

No, army/list building is done long before the game starts.

Actually I found this:

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle." (The Turn section, ‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’ sub-section).

So the game begins when the armies deploy for battle it seems.

Seize the Initiative happens before beginning the first game turn, but not necessarily before the game begins.

But either way list building happens before the game.

Just another nail in the " Psychic Powers are in fact generated before the game" coffin.

Hollismason wrote:
Just another nail in the " Psychic Powers are in fact generated before the game" coffin.

?

The rules actually state that Psychic Powers are in fact generated before the game.

The rule states

"Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins." (The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

Given this direct rules quote how can you claim that Psychic Powers are not generated before the game?

How can you claim that a psychic power from Chaos Focus is not generated then.

Hollismason wrote:
How can you claim that a psychic power from Chaos Focus is not generated then.

Because there are two ways to generate a power.

How to generate a power, Option 1:
"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers." (The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

Note that Daemons of X do not have any specific psychic powers listed.

How to generate a power, Option 2:
"Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic Disciplines known to him. To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline; you will notice that the psychic powers are numbered between one and six – the power generated corresponds to the number rolled on the D6. If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated." (The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

That is it, this is how you generate powers, something that does not happen with Chaos Psychic Focus.

Do you have any rules that state otherwise, if not please mark your posts How you would play it as what I have posted is RAW.

Except for that part where it says all psychic powers are generated. How do you get it then?

Hollismason wrote:
Except for that part where it says all psychic powers are generated. How do you get it then?

(Emphasis mine) Where does it say this (The underlined).

A model with Damon of X will automatically know the Primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity because of the Chaos Psychic Focus rule. this is not generation of a power though as Generating a power is outlined by the rules quotes I gave above and there are only two ways to generate powers as outlined in the BRB.

It is like you didn't even read my previous post.

Which is the way that it is generated.

Hollismason wrote:
Which is the way that it is generated.

Can you actually give some rules that state the Primaris is generated? (And not just automatically known).

If not, and you have not been able to yet, please mark your posts how you would play it, because I am dealing with the Rules As Written.

All psychic powers are generated before the game. Is it is a Psychic Power?

Are you now argueing that it is not in fact a psychic power?

Generating Psychic Powers

Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins.

Are you in fact now arguing that Psychic Powers generated by Psychic Focus and Chaos Focus are not psychic focus, then if not can you tell me when they are generated? ARe they generated during the game? Are they generated before the game begins?

When are these Psychic Powers generated?

You seem to have some sort of disconnect between the words, those are all methods for Generating Psychic Powers, not the other way around.

Why ?

Because it literally states in the beginning of the section that Psychic Powers are Generated before the game begins, all of them. It does not say " All psychic powers except X". All psychic powers are generated before the game begins.

Psykers do generate their psychic powers before the game begins.

But there is a specific process on how to generate powers, and Psychic focus and Chaos Psychic Focus do not follow this process therefore they are never generated as per the generation rules for Psychic powers.

Ergo A model with Damon of X will automatically know the Primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity. This is not how you generate psychic powers as such the Primaris gained this way does not fit the BRB's definition of Generate.

No the word otherwise says that they are generated randomly if not generated in some other way. That's what that sentence means.

that and the very beginning of the entire chapter says " Psychic Powers are generated before the game".

It doesn't matter if you get it because you killed a chicken and spread it's blood on your rulebook then called upon a great Loa, it doesn't matter if you got it out a gumball machine, it doesn't matter if you did William S. Burroughs style cut up your books threw it up into the air and what ever landed on the table was a psychic power.


If it is a Psychic Power, which it is, it is generate before the game begins.

You seem to think that those are the only two methods ever for generating psychic powers, no those are two methods. Once specifically states that there are other methods.

Doesn't the psyker have to have generated all of its psyker powers to get the focus?

 CrownAxe wrote:
Doesn't the psyker have to have generated all of its psyker powers to get the focus?

Sort of. it has to generate all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to get Psychic Focus. Psychic Focus though is gained not generated as generation of powers is a specific procvess as per my rules quotes above.

Hollismason wrote:
No the word otherwise says that they are generated randomly if not generated in some other way. That's what that sentence means.

The sentence means Psykers generate powers by having one or more specific psychic powers listed and apart from that they generate powers through random rolls. Those are the only two ways to generate a psychic Power as per the BRB.

that and the very beginning of the entire chapter says " Psychic Powers are generated before the game".

They are, but they also tell you how this happens and it happens in one of two ways.

It doesn't matter if you get it because you killed a chicken and spread it's blood on your rulebook then called upon a great Loa, it doesn't matter if you got it out a gumball machine, it doesn't matter if you did William S. Burroughs style cut up your books threw it up into the air and what ever landed on the table was a psychic power.

If it is a Psychic Power, which it is, it is generate before the game begins.

Incorrect. Psychic powers are generated in one of two ways, Stop ignoring the RAW.

You seem to think that those are the only two methods ever for generating psychic powers, no those are two methods.

No, those are the only two methods the BRB allows.

Once specifically states that there are other methods.

Where does it say this? Because the BRB is clear on how powers are generated.

If you do not have any actual rules backing then I am done with this, as you have yet to find any rules contrary to the rules I have posted.

It states it at the beginning of the chapter

Psykers generate their powers before the beginning of the game.

If this is not true then when does the Psyker gain Chaos Focus? If not at the beginning of the game, is it not a Psychic Power that is gained from this.

How does the Psyker recieve the power then?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Sort of. it has to generate all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to get Psychic Focus. Psychic Focus though is gained not generated as generation of powers is a specific procvess as per my rules quotes above.

The way i see it there are two parts that have to be met to get the psychic focus

a) must all be from the same disipline
b) must all have been generated

So having chaos focus prevents you getting psychic focus because not all of the psyker's powers were generated

Hello Logic My old friend

 CrownAxe wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Sort of. it has to generate all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to get Psychic Focus. Psychic Focus though is gained not generated as generation of powers is a specific procvess as per my rules quotes above.

The way i see it there are two parts that have to be met to get the psychic focus

a) must all be from the same disipline
b) must all have been generated

So having chaos focus prevents you getting psychic focus because not all of the psyker's powers were generated

No, it is all one statement, they must generate all of their powers from the same psychic discipline.

One restriction.

Hollismason wrote:
It states it at the beginning of the chapter

Psykers generate their powers before the beginning of the game.

If this is not true then when does the Psyker gain Chaos Focus? If not at the beginning of the game, is it not a Psychic Power that is gained from this.

How does the Psyker recieve the power then?

Generating a psychic power is not the same thing as gaining the Primaris through Psychic focus, this is the entire point.

Also I am still waiting on that citation, because you still have not given it. Where does the BRB specifically state that there are other methods for power generation?

I have given you the two rules on how to generate powers. Eithet they have it listed in their entry otherwise they roll for them. Those are the only two ways to generate a power.

You have yet to find any rules contrary to the rules I have posted, so I think this is settled.

I've already stated that it is just a list of how to generate psychic powers not the only methods for doing so.

Now since our friend so delicately pointed out, since you are not in fact generating all of your psychic powers from one discipline how are you getting psychic focus.

Hollismason wrote:
I've already stated that it is just a list of how to generate psychic powers not the only methods for doing so.

Yes you have, however the BRB disagrees with you.

Now since our friend so delicately pointed out, since you are not in fact generating all of your psychic powers from one discipline how are you getting psychic focus.

Except you are generating all your powers from a single discipline as there are only two ways to generate powers as per the previous rules quotes.

and Chaos Psychic Focus is not something that is generated, it is just something the models that meet the criteria automatically know.

Since you have continued to make claims without providing rules backing please mark your posts How you would play it as per the Tenets of the forum.

It states that you must generate pyschic powers from the same discipline , you have not you have gotten one "free/ Know/ whatever" from one discipline and generate the other ones.

Right, it states you must generate all powers from the same discipline.

You do not generate the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus.

So any rules to back up your statements? or is that HYWPI?

Having a power from a different discipline does not matter, generating a power from a different discipline does.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right, it states you must generate all powers from the same discipline.

you do not generate the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus.

So any rules to back up your statements? or is that HYWPI?

And sense by your logic it is not generated you have not generated all of your spells from that discipline there fore you do not get psychic focus.

Hollismason wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right, it states you must generate all powers from the same discipline.

you do not generate the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus.

So any rules to back up your statements? or is that HYWPI?

And sense [since] by your logic it is not generated you have not generated all of your spells from that discipline there fore you do not get psychic focus.

(Fixed that for you)
That is not what is required though.

You have indeed generated all of your powers from a single discipline.

you can have other powers as long as they are not generated.

CPF is never generated so the rule about needing to generate all of your powers from the same psychic discipline does not apply to Chaos Psychic Focus, since it is not generated.

Still no actual rules quotes?

You have in fact not as a power by your logic given to you that you got automatically does not fulfill the requirement of being generated

Not Generated
Generated
Generated
Generated
Primaris

= No

There is no requirement "of being generated"

"If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline"

If all of his generated powers come from the same discipline...

= Yes.

Your argument is incorrect as you do not have any Rules backing.

Please follow the tenets of the forum and mark your posts HYWPI.

Hollismason wrote:
You have in fact not as a power by your logic given to you that you got automatically does not fulfill the requirement of being generated

Not Generated
Generated
Generated
Generated
Primaris

= No

It places a limit on generatrion of powers, not how many powers the psyker "knows". If you generate all your powers from one disciplne you get focus, not if all the powers you have are from one discipline you gain focus. It places the limit on generation - if you gain powers in another way then you can still have generated all your powers from one discipline.

As DR state d- you need to start quoting some rules, as so far you have made an extraordinary claim (that despite there being only two methods given for the generation of powers, there are more ways to generate powers) without any backing for it.

Yes, we are aware that "randomly generate" and "generate" would certainly imply the former is the subset of the latter, but if there are no further methods listed, then the former is actually the set of the latter - they are equal. Or in other words, it doesnt matter if thre is a qualifier in front of the phrase if there are no other methods listed.

I've already posted the rules multiple times, the fact is DR believes that the only way you generate powers is two methods, because of it not having a qualifier, but we don't need to have that qualifier in front of each individual sentence as we know that all psychic powers are generated before the game begins.

Also, if you follow the logic of Chaos Focus not generating a Psychic Power.

Then units that automatically have Psychic Powers have not in fact generated their psychic powers.

Generating Psychic Powers

Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins. This is done openly, so both you and your opponent are aware of the power(s) each Psyker has generated. If your army includes more than one Psyker, you can choose the order in which you generate their powers.

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers.

Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

1. We know that all Psychic Abilities are generated before the game begins

2. This does not imply at all that the only method to generate Psychic Powers is by randomness. It's a distinction on a method of generation of powers, just the way the previous statement is a distinction on generation of specific powers

The idea that you only generate those specific ways is a very poor understanding of the grammar and comprehension. It's purposefully misreading those statements. We know this because it states OTHERWISE GENERATES, that doesn't mean that powers generated randomly are the only powers generated, it's a method for generating.

Psychic Focus

If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline’s primaris power in addition to his other powers. If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).

The psyker has generated a Psychic Power with Chaos focus, it doesn't matter if it states automatically knows, that is still the generation of a power. Why? Because we know definitively that all psychic powers are generated before the game begins


By DRs logic which is not correct Chaos Focus does not generate a psychic power , then the only way to meet the requirement of psychic focus is by two methods that he states which if you receive a psychic power by any other method, you have not generated all of your psychic powers from the same discipline and those methods only.

By this logic The only way to gain primaris is by generation of psychic powers by randomness

He's not generated all of his psychic powers from one discipline. He's been given on power automatically and generated the others. There for that statement is not made true.

Ah, actually we dont know that. We know they generate powers before the game begins. We do NOT know from that statement that all psychic powers that they know are generated, and therefore are acquired prior to the game start.

That is your assumption.

Secondly, note the "otherwise". This is defining an exhaustive list - generation is either already having a list of powers they know, OR it is through random generation. There is no allowance given here for another method to be called "generation" of powers. So if you *gain* a power, it is de facto NOT generation.