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Do cursed earths stack? ie can you give your tzeentch daemons 2++ rerollables?
Do chaos psychers get chaos focus and psychic focus? (Like a ML3 tzeentch herald gets 3 rolls on daemonolgy, daemonolgy primaris and tzeentch primaris?

I am asking as an opposing player to a daemon factory, not as TFG who wants to take one

1) Cursed Earth is a Blessing, check the BRB for what it says about Blessings stacking.

2) If all powers are generated from the same discipline then you get Psychic Focus. Chaos Psychic focus you can get as well since you never generate the Primaris power of the discipline in which you have a Mark of Chaos. A Psyker can have both (As far as the RAW goes, this was probably not intended).

3) Why would people taking a daemon factory be a TFG, they are not all that powerful, and take a long time to get ramped up.

No

It's one or the other, a marked Chaos Sorcerer will know his gods primaris for free and then roll or his powers / A unmarked Chaos Sorcerer can get the Psychic focus.

Hollismason wrote:
No

It's one or the other, a marked Chaos Sorcerer will know his gods primaris for free and then roll or his powers / A unmarked Chaos Sorcerer can get the Psychic focus.

Do you have any rules quotes to back up that statement?

Psychic focus says you lose it if you know any other powers during the course of the game, they auto know their god powers as such as can never get psychic focus and chaos focus.

@Mark: Can you give the page number or the exact quote on that?

MarkyMark wrote:
Psychic focus says you lose it if you know any other powers during the course of the game, they auto know their god powers as such as can never get psychic focus and chaos focus.

No... They get chaos focus and lose psychic focus. It says so right in the psychic phase section specifically.

 Ignatius wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Psychic focus says you lose it if you know any other powers during the course of the game, they auto know their god powers as such as can never get psychic focus and chaos focus.

No... They get chaos focus and lose psychic focus. It says so right in the psychic phase section specifically.

MarkyMark is right, nowhere in the BRB does it say you can't have Psychic Focus as a marked sorcerer, it just says you lose your Psychic Focus if you get a power from a different discipline.

Slight difference, but a difference none-the-less.

MarkyMark wrote:
Psychic focus says you lose it if you know any other powers during the course of the game, they auto know their god powers as such as can never get psychic focus and chaos focus.

Except you do not gain any powers from any other disciplines during the course of the game, you gain the Chaos Psychic Focus before the game starts.

It was probably intended that you can not have both Chaos Psychic Focus, and Psychic Focus, though. they just didn't really word the rules correctly (No big surprise there). I play it that they do not get both, but the rules seem to say they can get both due to the wording on Psychic Focus that states "If during the course of the game" when clearly Chaos Psychic Focus does not happen during the game, it happens before.

Am I missing something here? Marked sorcerers cannot have psychic focus because they must take one of their powers from their respective gods tables. Therefore, because they generated a power from a table other than, say pyromancy, they cannot know the primaris from pyromancy because they didn't generate all their powers from it.

So they can never have psychic focus. Instead, they get chaos psychic focus, where they know the primaris to their gods table- a way to make them not lose out on a good rule.

Where does it say they get both?

 Ignatius wrote:
Am I missing something here? Marked sorcerers cannot have psychic focus because they must take one of their powers from their respective gods tables. Therefore, because they generated a power from a table other than, say pyromancy, they cannot know the primaris from pyromancy because they didn't generate all their powers from it.

So they can never have psychic focus. Instead, they get chaos psychic focus, where they know the primaris to their gods table- a way to make them not lose out on a good rule.

Where does it say they get both?

Yes, you are missing the fact that Chaos Psychic Focus is something that all marked psykers get. It is not something that they take. They never generate the power that is the primaris of their god's mark.

As long as a Psyker generates all psychic powers from the same psychic discipline they get psychic focus.

The Chaos Psychic Focus is not something that is generated, it is something they automatically know if they have a mark.

"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section).

Psykers generate powers randomly by rolling dice.

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline..." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

"Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

Hmmm I think I had a simple mis reading of the focus rules. I see what you're saying and I have to agree with you after looking at it.

Interesting. I suppose sorcerers just got a little better.

 Ignatius wrote:
Hmmm I think I had a simple mis reading of the focus rules. I see what you're saying and I have to agree with you after looking at it.

Interesting. I suppose sorcerers just got a little better.

As I said though, it does not look like it was intended, and I do not play that way, but YMMV.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Am I missing something here? Marked sorcerers cannot have psychic focus because they must take one of their powers from their respective gods tables. Therefore, because they generated a power from a table other than, say pyromancy, they cannot know the primaris from pyromancy because they didn't generate all their powers from it.

So they can never have psychic focus. Instead, they get chaos psychic focus, where they know the primaris to their gods table- a way to make them not lose out on a good rule.

Where does it say they get both?

Yes, you are missing the fact that Chaos Psychic Focus is something that all marked psykers get. It is not something that they take. They never generate the power that is the primaris of their god's mark.

As long as a Psyker generates all psychic powers from the same psychic discipline they get psychic focus.

The Chaos Psychic Focus is not something that is generated, it is something they automatically know if they have a mark.

"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section).

Psykers generate powers randomly by rolling dice.

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline..." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

"Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

However, sorcerers have to to roll minimum one time on the discipline of their patron god, and by doing that, you cant get psychic focus in any other discipline. The word is they must "roll" for god specific powers, so the chaos focus primaris dont count.
The rule of chaos focus was obviously made becaus there is no way for a marked sorscerer to get focus otherwise.

Edit: anyway, the question was about daemons, and they can apparently get psychic focus and a chaos focus primaris as a bonus, the way I read it.

Whether or not they get both is almost irrelevant as they have the same practical outcome.

Scenario #1 - Knowing both Psychic Focus AND Chaos Psychic Focus.

I choose to generate all powers from Malefic Daemonology. Psychic Focus kicks in and I get the Malefic Primaris. Then Choas Psychic Focus kicks in, I lose the Malefic Primaris and gain the Primaris of my marked God.

Scenario #2 - Knowing only Chaos Psychic Focus.

I choose to generate all powers from Malefic Daemonology. Chaos Psychic Focus kicks in and I gain the Primaris of my marked God.

...

Same outcome.

And anyone saying that gaining the power via Chaos Psychic Focus isn't part of the game should remember that powers are only selected when you're playing a game. We should use the standard dictionary definition. The rule doesn't say that we lose the Primaris should we gain another power during any player turn. It says game and that encompasses selecting your army and setting up things like powers.

 Kriswall wrote:
Whether or not they get both is almost irrelevant as they have the same practical outcome.

Scenario #1 - Knowing both Psychic Focus AND Chaos Psychic Focus.

I choose to generate all powers from Malefic Daemonology. Psychic Focus kicks in and I get the Malefic Primaris. Then Choas Psychic Focus kicks in, I lose the Malefic Primaris and gain the Primaris of my marked God.

Scenario #2 - Knowing only Chaos Psychic Focus.

I choose to generate all powers from Malefic Daemonology. Chaos Psychic Focus kicks in and I gain the Primaris of my marked God.

...

Same outcome.

And anyone saying that gaining the power via Chaos Psychic Focus isn't part of the game should remember that powers are only selected when you're playing a game. We should use the standard dictionary definition. The rule doesn't say that we lose the Primaris should we gain another power during any player turn. It says game and that encompasses selecting your army and setting up things like powers.

Still, the rulebook say you generate powers "before the game begin" (p 23), and psychic focus is lost if you gain a power "during the course of the game". Just saying. If you generate all powers from one discipline you get psychic focus. Chaos focus is "in addition to any other powers it knows". Notice its not in addition to any other powers generated, and therefor clearly include the non-generated psychic focus primaris it knows.

You don't get Psychic Focus and Chaos Focus at the same time, Jesus Christ what the hell.

If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline’s primaris power in addition to his other powers.If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).

Chaos Psychic Focus

If a Psyker has a Mark of Chaos or is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God (see Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Chaos Daemons), that model automatically knows the primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity, in addition to any other powers it knows.

- Edited by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1-

Generation of a power with Chaos Focus is generating a power whether it's free or not, you've still auto-generated a Psychic Power that's not the same discipline you picked.

Hollismason wrote:
Generation of a power with Chaos Focus is generating a power whether it's free or not, you've still auto-generated a Psychic Power that's not the same discipline you picked.

No that is not generating a power. Generating powers had a specific procedure that you follow in the BRB. You never follow this procedure with the Primaris power of a Discipline that corresponds to a Psykers Mark of Chaos.

You never generate the power tied to your patron god if the model has a mark of said god because you generate powers by this process:

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline..." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

This is how you generate powers. You never do this for a marked Psyker with the Primaris power corresponding to this mark.

Ergo, you can have Psychic Focus and Chaos Focus at the same time if you only generate powers from one discipline.

You are correct Reaper, but you do relise it is a mere oversight on GW's behalf?. I personnaly wouldnt play this way as its pretty clear this will be FAQ'ed to remove both chaos focus and psychic focus. I cannot see the point in playing it that way with a good chance it will be removed?.

Why it is so clear is Force is discounted from looking at Psychic focus to see if you know any other powers, even though that is automatically generated as well.

MarkyMark wrote:
You are correct Reaper, but you do relise [sic] it is a mere oversight on GW's behalf?. I personnaly [sic] wouldnt [sic] play this way as its pretty clear this will be FAQ'ed to remove both chaos focus and psychic focus. I cannot see the point in playing it that way with a good chance it will be removed?.

Why it is so clear is Force is discounted from looking at Psychic focus to see if you know any other powers, even though that is automatically generated as well.

I have stated that I think it is probably an oversight. You can never tell though with GW writers.

As for force, maybe they forgot to put that line in Chaos Focus, but it is probably just an oversight.

I have stated that I do not play it that way, not that I play daemons or CSM's, but if my opponent wanted to play that way, I would not make a big deal about it.

The RAW is that a Psyker can have Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus at the same time. (Though likely not intended).

The OP has his answer, so we can move along yes?

Quick Question from a non-Psyker User:
What happened to the Rule which stated a Chaos Psyker has to generate at least half their powers on the God-o-choice's table?

JinxDragon wrote:
Quick Question from a non-Psyker User:
What happened to the Rule which stated a Chaos Psyker has to generate at least half their powers on the God-o-choice's table?

When you say Chaos, do you mean Daemons or Marines?

For Chaos a Space Marines, it's at least 1 power, and up to half (not at least half).

I was thinking on Marines, and couldn't remember if it was up to or at least so thanks for that as well.
Secondary question now Daemons are on the mind: Are they governed by a similar Rule?

I recommend everyone email GW with the questions (as I did) about Chaos Psychic Focus (and Psychic Focus) and how it interacts with Marks of Chaos etc.

Here is their FAQ email address: Gamefaqs@gwplc.com

Also if you want to call them from North America (although they refuse to answer rules questions over the phone) here is all the numbers you need to dial: 011 44 115 91 40000

Generating a power is not only randomly generating powers. It includes all ways in which you acquire powers, including those set by the codex entry and Psychic Focus. Thus if you have a power via Chaos Focus that is not the same discipline, you can't claim Psychic Focus.

All of the rules governing this process are under the heading "Generating Psychic Powers". The section then starts with "Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins." It then describes the process by which specific powers are acquired. Thus, it is one way in which powers are generated. It continues on from there. Regardless of the way in which the power has been acquired, it has been "generated" by the Psyker.

Angelic wrote:
Generating a power is not only randomly generating powers.

Yes it is, as per the rules I posted earlier.

It includes all ways in which you acquire powers, including those set by the codex entry and Psychic Focus.

Not true, as per the rules I posted earlier.

Thus if you have a power via Chaos Focus that is not the same discipline, you can't claim Psychic Focus.

False premise leads to false conclusions like this one.

All of the rules governing this process are under the heading "Generating Psychic Powers". The section then starts with "Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins." It then describes the process by which specific powers are acquired. Thus, it is one way in which powers are generated. It continues on from there. Regardless of the way in which the power has been acquired, it has been "generated" by the Psyker.

Generating a psyshic power is a specific process defined in the BRB as:

"a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."
"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline" (The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

Psykers generate powers randomly, out of a chosen discipline.

Something that is never done with Psychic Focus, or Chaos Psychic Focus.

I think it all boils down to the definition of Generating Psychic Powers, and in my personal opinion there is a difference between Generating and Randomly Generating.

The paragraph headed "Generating Psychic Powers" differentiates between generating and randomly generating. It specifically mentions some Psykers having powers listed in their army list entries, and that Psykers start the game with those powers -- which seems to indicate that determining which powers a Psyker has is in and of itself generating them, as it is described in the section for Generating Psychic Powers.

It then goes on to describe how to randomly generate psychic powers. Not simply "generate", but generate randomly from a chosen Discipline.

In other words, Generating Psychic Powers is the act of determining which powers a Psyker will have at the start of the game. Some powers will be generated automatically, such as Force, army list entry powers and Chaos Psychic Focus powers. Other powers are selected by choosing a Discipline and rolling on the power table specific to that discipline, aka randomly generating a power.

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 "

"If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated. Note that second and subsequent psychic powers do not have to be generated from the same psychic discipline as the Psyker’s first power" (Both quotes from The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

"if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers."

This is how you generate powers...

 AlTzeentch wrote:
I recommend everyone email GW with the questions (as I did) about Chaos Psychic Focus (and Psychic Focus) and how it interacts with Marks of Chaos etc.

That won't actually achieve anything any more 'official' than the answer you would get here. The customer service person you speak to or receive an email from doesn't have any special training in the rules... they're just mail order people who get the fun job of answering rules questions on the side. They're just going from their own understanding of the rules like the rest of us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Ergo, you can have Psychic Focus and Chaos Focus at the same time if you only generate powers from one discipline.

I might be missing something in my caffeine-deficient state, but what difference does it make? They both just result in your psyker getting the primaris power, don't they?

doesnt matter if they choose it or whatever,

if they somehow, by any means, gain a power in another tree, even the primaris, they lose P focus, and that is overtly stated in the rules on the same page that tells you about both focuses.

RAW and RAI do not allow you to have both focuses at once....

unless you are generating all your powers from the same tree your marks gives you the free primaris for, which in effect, is pointless.

as soon as you claim the primarice for CHAOS focus, you have powers in multiple trees, losing the P focus rule. simple as that, spelt out clear as day, but of course, that wont stop people from reading it wrong.