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 Wyzilla wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
So this has degenerated into a, we are proud of our guns and could take space marines and the you are psychotic thugs who have nothing on marines.

I recall fluff about bullets from auto guns killing marines through eye sockets in the dark vengeance box how to play magazine insert in the shooting section. Assuming an autogun is similar to the type of semi auto weapons available in relatively large quantity in Atlanta, then statistically the angry street thugs would win, at high cost, but guerilla warfare in a city that is unfamiliar is pretty hard. I think another error we make is assuming that members of gangs do not attempt to psychologically break their enemies down and veterans of gang warfare would get with the program pretty quickly.
Just my 2 cents, take em or leave em.

Man, what.

Autoguns are not at all similar to the weapons people carry Atlanta, unless I've been under a rock and Uzis apparently shoot 8.5 caliber bullets.

Pretty sure autoguns don't shoot 8.5 inch diameter bullets...

What? I said caliber. As in metric diameter. 8.5mm would be close to something like .338.



So something like this, only with the lower receiver of an assault rifle and a much shorter barrel.

8.5 caliber is an 8 and a half inch wide bullet. Did you perhaps mean .85 caliber? That's over three-quarters of an inch in size... and, no, there are no assault rifles that chambers such a round.

Caliber is not a metric measurement, it's an Imperial Standard measurement, with 1.0 Caliber being 1 inch.

 easysauce wrote:
just make the marines walk through ~900 patches of dangerous terrain,

that should statistically kille most/all of em

Well, there's enough forgotten minefields all over the world for the marines to wish they brought some grots with them

In dawn of war 4 cultist could take on a marine.

 easysauce wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
So this has degenerated into a, we are proud of our guns and could take space marines and the you are psychotic thugs who have nothing on marines.

I recall fluff about bullets from auto guns killing marines through eye sockets in the dark vengeance box how to play magazine insert in the shooting section. Assuming an autogun is similar to the type of semi auto weapons available in relatively large quantity in Atlanta, then statistically the angry street thugs would win, at high cost, but guerilla warfare in a city that is unfamiliar is pretty hard. I think another error we make is assuming that members of gangs do not attempt to psychologically break their enemies down and veterans of gang warfare would get with the program pretty quickly.
Just my 2 cents, take em or leave em.

Man, what.

Autoguns are not at all similar to the weapons people carry Atlanta, unless I've been under a rock and Uzis apparently shoot 8.5 caliber bullets.

LOLWUT?

uzis shoot 9mm caliber, so bigger then what you suggest... auto guns in game are not 8.5" caliber either if thats what you suggest... even bolt guns are generally described as .5 -1" cailber

auto guns are very much described as conventional arms in the fluff.

Blame Forge World. The known calibers are 8.25 (I was wrong apparently, I thought they were 8.5) for the main assault rifles. Also, since when were Uzis larger than 5.56 or 7.62?

We have to ignore GW's usage of the term "monomolecular", because it is completely inaccurate (a topic you and I have discussed previously, Wyzilla) and makes zero sense, and is even inconsistent with itself.

Making a fortress out of people is just completely absurd. The building would have no structural integrity, and after a very short amount of time it would begin to seriously rot. Putting them on life support just makes it plain ridiculous.

There's been some confusion - is it really ten million or not? If so, I'd be okay with them doing things previously mentioned, like blowing up cities and the like, but definitely not with them doing it all by bolter and chainsword.

EDIT: We should also ignore Forge World's statistics. I believe they made Land Raiders out to be less dense than water. That's not to say that autoguns aren't of superior power to their modern equivalents, though.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
So this has degenerated into a, we are proud of our guns and could take space marines and the you are psychotic thugs who have nothing on marines.

I recall fluff about bullets from auto guns killing marines through eye sockets in the dark vengeance box how to play magazine insert in the shooting section. Assuming an autogun is similar to the type of semi auto weapons available in relatively large quantity in Atlanta, then statistically the angry street thugs would win, at high cost, but guerilla warfare in a city that is unfamiliar is pretty hard. I think another error we make is assuming that members of gangs do not attempt to psychologically break their enemies down and veterans of gang warfare would get with the program pretty quickly.
Just my 2 cents, take em or leave em.

Man, what.

Autoguns are not at all similar to the weapons people carry Atlanta, unless I've been under a rock and Uzis apparently shoot 8.5 caliber bullets.

LOLWUT?

uzis shoot 9mm caliber, so bigger then what you suggest... auto guns in game are not 8.5" caliber either if thats what you suggest... even bolt guns are generally described as .5 -1" cailber

auto guns are very much described as conventional arms in the fluff.

Blame Forge World. The known calibers are 8.25 (I was wrong apparently, I thought they were 8.5) for the main assault rifles. Also, since when were Uzis larger than 5.56 or 7.62?

A lot of submachine guns use higher calibre rounds than assault rifles (the Uzi and MP5 both use 9mm, the MAC10 came in .45 and 9mm variants etc.) . An assault rifle typically has more power due to higher loads, not a larger round.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
So this has degenerated into a, we are proud of our guns and could take space marines and the you are psychotic thugs who have nothing on marines.

I recall fluff about bullets from auto guns killing marines through eye sockets in the dark vengeance box how to play magazine insert in the shooting section. Assuming an autogun is similar to the type of semi auto weapons available in relatively large quantity in Atlanta, then statistically the angry street thugs would win, at high cost, but guerilla warfare in a city that is unfamiliar is pretty hard. I think another error we make is assuming that members of gangs do not attempt to psychologically break their enemies down and veterans of gang warfare would get with the program pretty quickly.
Just my 2 cents, take em or leave em.

Man, what.

Autoguns are not at all similar to the weapons people carry Atlanta, unless I've been under a rock and Uzis apparently shoot 8.5 caliber bullets.

LOLWUT?

uzis shoot 9mm caliber, so bigger then what you suggest... auto guns in game are not 8.5" caliber either if thats what you suggest... even bolt guns are generally described as .5 -1" cailber

auto guns are very much described as conventional arms in the fluff.

Blame Forge World. The known calibers are 8.25 (I was wrong apparently, I thought they were 8.5) for the main assault rifles. Also, since when were Uzis larger than 5.56 or 7.62?

A lot of submachine guns use higher calibre rounds than assault rifles. An assault rifle typically has more power due to higher loads, not a larger round.

I know. The difference I'm talking about is width and length. Because you can have the fattest round in history, but unless that thing has a charge behind it it's not going to do much to body armor. It's part of the reason why I just groaned when watching the Ultramarines movie with the stupid, stubby little bolter shells.

They killed lotsa people cause they're vastly more experienced soldiers than most humans are in 40k (fighting for millennia). They're still Space Marines which means they can kill normal humans faster than they can blink. Night Lords being their nasty evil selves would probably scare the living bejesus out of a lot of people. The Bleeding Eyes Raptors would spend ages hunting people to kill.

Plus there's the mass reactive RPG launchers they're packing as standard firearms

 Psienesis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
So this has degenerated into a, we are proud of our guns and could take space marines and the you are psychotic thugs who have nothing on marines.

I recall fluff about bullets from auto guns killing marines through eye sockets in the dark vengeance box how to play magazine insert in the shooting section. Assuming an autogun is similar to the type of semi auto weapons available in relatively large quantity in Atlanta, then statistically the angry street thugs would win, at high cost, but guerilla warfare in a city that is unfamiliar is pretty hard. I think another error we make is assuming that members of gangs do not attempt to psychologically break their enemies down and veterans of gang warfare would get with the program pretty quickly.
Just my 2 cents, take em or leave em.

Man, what.

Autoguns are not at all similar to the weapons people carry Atlanta, unless I've been under a rock and Uzis apparently shoot 8.5 caliber bullets.

Pretty sure autoguns don't shoot 8.5 inch diameter bullets...

What? I said caliber. As in metric diameter. 8.5mm would be close to something like .338.



So something like this, only with the lower receiver of an assault rifle and a much shorter barrel.

8.5 caliber is an 8 and a half inch wide bullet. Did you perhaps mean .85 caliber? That's over three-quarters of an inch in size... and, no, there are no assault rifles that chambers such a round.

Caliber is not a metric measurement, it's an Imperial Standard measurement, with 1.0 Caliber being 1 inch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber#Metric_versus_Imperial

There is a thing as metric caliber. Which is also a lot simpler than Imperial. Hell I can't even remember a time when anyone called 5.56 caliber .22 Caliber. I've in fact never even really heard imperial caliber before, and mind you I live in the States (herp derp).

 Wyzilla wrote:

There is a thing as metric caliber. Which is also a lot simpler than Imperial. Hell I can't even remember a time when anyone called 5.56 caliber .22 Caliber. I've in fact never even really heard imperial caliber before, and mind you I live in the States (herp derp).

I don't think I've ever in my life heard someone refer to .22 caliber guns as 5.56 caliber.

Funny enough, the ammunition and guns listed in the examples on the table you linked to on Wikipedia use imperial caliber for 30 of them, while only listing 23 metric caliber examples.

I don't think anyone's going to start referring to a .45 as an 11.43 anytime soon.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

There is a thing as metric caliber. Which is also a lot simpler than Imperial. Hell I can't even remember a time when anyone called 5.56 caliber .22 Caliber. I've in fact never even really heard imperial caliber before, and mind you I live in the States (herp derp).

I don't think I've ever in my life heard someone refer to .22 caliber guns as 5.56 caliber.

Funny enough, the ammunition and guns listed in the examples on the table you linked to on Wikipedia use imperial caliber for 30 of them, while only listing 23 metric caliber examples.

I don't think anyone's going to start referring to a .45 as an 11.43 anytime soon.

The only ones I've heard refereed to by their imperial caliber are .45 and .50. Otherwise it's 5.56, .762, 20, etc.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
They killed lotsa people cause they're vastly more experienced soldiers than most humans are in 40k (fighting for millennia). They're still Space Marines which means they can kill normal humans faster than they can blink. Night Lords being their nasty evil selves would probably scare the living bejesus out of a lot of people. The Bleeding Eyes Raptors would spend ages hunting people to kill.

Plus there's the mass reactive RPG launchers they're packing as standard firearms

Quoted for the fething truth.

Add up your perceived numbers of the low tech guns the atlanta dudes might have access to, if you will - but it doesn't matter.

Current earth guns? Less than a slight chance of competing with the 50 Night Lord's weapons.

The technological gap is too great. The 50 Night Lords will crush the city of atlanta, and they already did tsugulsa.

You guys really like your home towns don't yeah? You really think civilians, some militia, and some military could beat the 50 Night Lords? Freaking Night Lords?

50 of them could easily destroy your city.

Doesn't 5.56 refer to millimetres?

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Doesn't 5.56 refer to millimetres?

Yes.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Doesn't 5.56 refer to millimetres?

Yes.

Doesn't exactly hold a candle to the fist-sized shells of an Astartes Boltgun, mind you.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
We have to ignore GW's usage of the term "monomolecular", because it is completely inaccurate (a topic you and I have discussed previously, Wyzilla) and makes zero sense, and is even inconsistent with itself.

Making a fortress out of people is just completely absurd. The building would have no structural integrity, and after a very short amount of time it would begin to seriously rot. Putting them on life support just makes it plain ridiculous.

There's been some confusion - is it really ten million or not? If so, I'd be okay with them doing things previously mentioned, like blowing up cities and the like, but definitely not with them doing it all by bolter and chainsword.

EDIT: We should also ignore Forge World's statistics. I believe they made Land Raiders out to be less dense than water. That's not to say that autoguns aren't of superior power to their modern equivalents, though.

To be fair, this is Chaos we are talking about. They have access to Space Magic which can make up for any illogical choices.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
We have to ignore GW's usage of the term "monomolecular", because it is completely inaccurate (a topic you and I have discussed previously, Wyzilla) and makes zero sense, and is even inconsistent with itself.

Making a fortress out of people is just completely absurd. The building would have no structural integrity, and after a very short amount of time it would begin to seriously rot. Putting them on life support just makes it plain ridiculous.

There's been some confusion - is it really ten million or not? If so, I'd be okay with them doing things previously mentioned, like blowing up cities and the like, but definitely not with them doing it all by bolter and chainsword.

EDIT: We should also ignore Forge World's statistics. I believe they made Land Raiders out to be less dense than water. That's not to say that autoguns aren't of superior power to their modern equivalents, though.

Don't forget how pauldrons defend the wearer by launching micro missiles!

With Atlanta thing. Arent space marine's bones (especially their chest) made out of incredibly hard matierial? I saw a quote describing their chest as being "bullet proof" on the wiki. Also I highly doubt we have anything especially in the civilian arsenal -_- if a marines armor can occasionally protect against supersonic admantium tipped explosive mini RPGs I have not doubt that Atlantian BB guns (compared to 40k) will even tickle.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
We have to ignore GW's usage of the term "monomolecular", because it is completely inaccurate (a topic you and I have discussed previously, Wyzilla) and makes zero sense, and is even inconsistent with itself.

Making a fortress out of people is just completely absurd. The building would have no structural integrity, and after a very short amount of time it would begin to seriously rot. Putting them on life support just makes it plain ridiculous.

There's been some confusion - is it really ten million or not? If so, I'd be okay with them doing things previously mentioned, like blowing up cities and the like, but definitely not with them doing it all by bolter and chainsword.

EDIT: We should also ignore Forge World's statistics. I believe they made Land Raiders out to be less dense than water. That's not to say that autoguns aren't of superior power to their modern equivalents, though.

Don't forget how pauldrons defend the wearer by launching micro missiles!

Where'd that bit come from?

walkertreat wrote:
if a marines armor can occasionally protect against supersonic admantium tipped explosive mini RPGs I have not doubt that Atlantian BB guns (compared to 40k) will even tickle.

They wouldn't.

The truth of the matter is that not even mass lasguns are a real credible threat to a Space Marine, much less modern day small-arms. When people bring up the weaker armor-joints, they're neglecting to consider that:

A) No Guardsmen is going to be able to hit those joints. And

B) Even if they got past the Astartes' armor, the damage inflicted upon the Space Marine won't be enough to put him down.

The exposed "joints" on a Space Marine's armor have a surface-area of... what? Six inches at their largest parts? On a charging Space Marine, that's a bulls-eye that's bobbing erratically on a chassis that's moving at like 40 miles an hour. Hitting that would be like attempting to shoot through the six inch gap of a rolled down window on a car moving at 40 miles per hour, from 100 meters away... during an earthquake. It's not happening. It's not happening with fully-automatic fire from a distance, and in close-quarters the Marine is going to basically be a giant whirling blur of death that's already in among you and your boys and ripping them to shreds. So now you've got friendly fire to consider as well as the fact that the bastard is so close and making such sweeping movements so fast that you'll be getting barely milliseconds of opportunity to focus on any weak spot in his armor. Not that you would anyway. You'd probably be too busy gaking yourself at the scene of your squad mates getting cut in half and flooding the vicinity in viscera.

Even if, by some miracle, a las-shot manages to puncture a Marine's suit, what exactly is that supposed to do to him? There is a precedent within Studio fluff of Space Marines surviving plasma shots coring them (as in, leaving gaping 12-inch diameter holes in their stomachs)- granted they were pretty much down for the count from that, and it's implied that they died from their injuries later on, but they still had the cognitive ability immediately after getting hit to communicate and be pissed off. Compare that to a Guardsmen or a Sister or any other human, who would basically just be instantly killed by a direct hit from a plasma gun. If people in here want to use table-top stats in here (I'm not a fan), lasguns wound marines on 5's for a reason. Getting past their armor is only half of the job. A Space Marine probably wouldn't even notice that he'd taken a lasbolt or two to the knee-caps until after he'd already slaughtered everyone in the room and was moving onto his next objective.

Imperial Guard can and certainly have killed Space Marines. But a single squad armed with just Lasguns isn't going to cut it.

- - -

That said, some thugs in Atlanta wouldn't have a damn chance. Take 100 gang bangers, give 'em AK-47's and frag grenades and give them half an hour to set up a defensive position inside a warehouse. A Space Marine would kill every single one of them who was too slow or dumb to run for their lives.

The way I always saw a Night Lords attack is that first people go missing. A few hours later people start to find the bodies, horrendously mutilated, some still alive, but with their skin peeled off. This happens for a few days, with ever increasing numbers of people going missing and the bodies turning up in a more and more horrific state.

By the time you even realise that you are under attack, the Night Lords and their allies have shut down the power supply that lights up the city and the military targets that may provide most resistance are in flames.

Over the next few days they take out everythign that they expect to offer resistance, as well as finding any areas where people have gone to hide in large groups and killing everyone they can find. After all organised resistance is gone, they then start sensor sweeps to locate the survivors so that they can finish off the job.

All the time following the main attack they will send messages to the survivors, maybe offering to let them live if they congregate in chosen areas (where they can be more easily massacred) and roadcasting the screams of those they have taken alive. In addition to this, they will take pleasure in torturing everyone who offers any resistance and letting people know the price of fighting back.

If people had a chance to organise and fight in a nice level playing ground they would win, enough guns wil stop an Astartes. The strength of the Astartes is that they do not have to stop to rest and each one will have several hundred years experience fighting the sort of wars that favour their strengths.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

To be fair, this is Chaos we are talking about. They have access to Space Magic which can make up for any illogical choices.

Except they don't. If they could use magic to make humans into a viable building material, imagine what they could do with actual buildings. They'd be able to make nigh-indestructible fortresses from concrete, or AV13 Daemon Engines from wood!

EDIT: Also, why? I know the Night Lords are messed up, but seriously, why would they build a fortress from people? Why did they build a fortress at all? It serves no possible function other than to be grimdark (it's not like they were going to use it as a stronghold - and if they were, that just makes it all the worse). Were they planning on staying? If so, a more suitable building probably already existed (and I don't imagine fifty Night Lords to have any idea what they are doing in construction, and fifty people, Astartes or not, are going to take a long time to build anything worthy of the title "fortress"). If they wanted to be grimdark, they could have just done mass-crucifixion or something. Making buildings out of people is just completely absurd.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

To be fair, this is Chaos we are talking about. They have access to Space Magic which can make up for any illogical choices.

Except they don't. If they could use magic to make humans into a viable building material, imagine what they could do with actual buildings. They'd be able to make nigh-indestructible fortresses from concrete, or AV13 Daemon Engines from wood!

EDIT: Also, why? I know the Night Lords are messed up, but seriously, why would they build a fortress from people? Why did they build a fortress at all? It serves no possible function other than to be grimdark (it's not like they were going to use it as a stronghold - and if they were, that just makes it all the worse). Were they planning on staying? If so, a more suitable building probably already existed (and I don't imagine fifty Night Lords to have any idea what they are doing in construction, and fifty people, Astartes or not, are going to take a long time to build anything worthy of the title "fortress"). If they wanted to be grimdark, they could have just done mass-crucifixion or something. Making buildings out of people is just completely absurd.

Cause Night Haunter was a few cards short of a full deck.

So really what happened was that Curze demanded of his legion that they "LIVING HUMAN PALACE LIVING HUMAN PALACE". After they dumped a large number of corpses into a pile, Curze leapt atop the mound and declared it the grandest construction in all Mankind's history.

Makes a lot more sense.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
If 40 monsters showed up in Atlanta me and others with guns would overwhelm them with superior numbers. Its like infantry men overrunning armored formations, your looking at a massacre but it can be done.

Well first, I'd like to say Atlanta is a great city. Do I think with just the small arms in the hands of civilians, we'll win? No I do not. But what no one has made the point of, is there is a lot of military bases in the surrounding area. Soldiers would flock to help the civilian population. They would bring more powerful guns, training, and probably most importantly (imo) explosives. When battles begins to head down hill (as undoubted some will), I'd wager suicide bombers or other methods that would remove both parties would appear. As no one would wants to be taken alive and wants revenge as chances are they've lost friends and family alike to this menace there would be no shortage of volunteers as well as those who've already lost too much and just wish for death. "Corner a dog in a dead-end street and it will turn and bite" . It would still be a slaughter of unheard of proportions but would that has the potential to be a victory.

I don't know why we're talking about Atlanta, but the modern military could easily deal with fifty Space Marines. Sure, infantry would be basically useless, but we have so much more than that.

Land Raiders are another story.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I don't know why we're talking about Atlanta, but the modern military could easily deal with fifty Space Marines. Sure, infantry would be basically useless, but we have so much more than that.

Land Raiders are another story.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
If 40 monsters showed up in Atlanta me and others with guns would overwhelm them with superior numbers. Its like infantry men overrunning armored formations, your looking at a massacre but it can be done.

 Insane Smile wrote:
But what no one has made the point of, is there is a lot of military bases in the surrounding area. Soldiers would flock to help the civilian population. They would bring more powerful guns, training, and probably most importantly (imo) explosives. When battles begins to head down hill (as undoubted some will), I'd wager suicide bombers or other methods that would remove both parties would appear. As no one would wants to be taken alive and wants revenge as chances are they've lost friends and family alike to this menace there would be no shortage of volunteers as well as those who've already lost too much and just wish for death. "Corner a dog in a dead-end street and it will turn and bite" . It would still be a slaughter of unheard of proportions but would that has the potential to be a victory.

Actually i pointed out Atlanta's military bases. I added militia too.

Even with the support of the local armed forces and military, the potential for victory is way too slim for atlanta.

No offense to atlanta, but... god damn. You guys really believe in yourselves, don't yah?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I don't know why we're talking about Atlanta, but the modern military could easily deal with fifty Space Marines. Sure, infantry would be basically useless, but we have so much more than that.

Land Raiders are another story.

Well thats true the modern military forces of the whole of the USA could stamp out 50 space marines. It would be the weirdest fight they'd ever have, and pretty horrific.

BlaxicanX wrote:

That said, some thugs in Atlanta wouldn't have a damn chance. Take 100 gang bangers, give 'em AK-47's and frag grenades and give them half an hour to set up a defensive position inside a warehouse. A Space Marine would kill every single one of them who was too slow or dumb to run for their lives.

This right here is why I laugh when people say that the 40k universe has good background & stories!

Have a look at the Wrath of Iron book as well - the Iron Hands slaughter entire Hives of people - systematically, following that worlds rebellion and allegiance with Chaos. Its pretty grim stuff.