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 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


You keep talking about the magic of heavy compound lifts. Let's see the Herculean physique you've developed doing it the right way.

I know this comment wasn't directed at me, but I'll have a jab at it I definitely think that I have the body of a Greek god, it just so happens that that god is Dionysus

 trexmeyer wrote:
Not bad at all, actually envious of your shoulders, more impressed that you actually delivered. Height/weight?

I'm a bit confused as to why you would insist on running with a knee injury.

Thanks...no problem. 5'11 ~185 now. I have (involuntarily) taken a hiatus from drinking so I expect the bf to drop slightly over the next few months.

I have a small ACL tear from trying to "stick the landing" jumping out of a chopper. Definitely underestimated the weight on me...climbing stairs is a major bitch but running isn't *too* bad. Sometimes twisting in and out of a car aggravates it so I take it easy.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

I have a small ACL tear from trying to "stick the landing" jumping out of a chopper. Definitely underestimated the weight on me...climbing stairs is a major bitch but running isn't *too* bad. Sometimes twisting in and out of a car aggravates it so I take it easy.

As a guy who was recently medically discharged from the Army, I'll tell you like I tell my buddies still in... the army is shrinking, you GOTTA take care of your body (probably in some ways, better than pro-athletes do). If you have legit injuries/issues, get them checked out, documented and taken care of while you can. I'd say it's better to get out of the army able to run and exercise than it is to receive a higher "percentage" from the VA

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
This is after a 5 mile run so I'm obviously not pumped. Strong as hell? lol...I don't know, but not bad for a guy with 3 herniated disks and a knee injury who drinks 3 cocktails a night.

Spoiler:

You keep talking about the magic of heavy compound lifts. Let's see the Herculean physique you've developed doing it the right way.

Where did I say they were magical? I said they had a place in training ,especially for beginners.

I'm also 100% sure I am smaller than you, especially since I've put forth zero effort into gaining size.

Hardly Herculaen, but I value strength over size especially all that matters in looking good is some muscle mass and being relatively lean (unless you compete in BBing).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:
Not bad at all, actually envious of your shoulders, more impressed that you actually delivered. Height/weight?

I'm a bit confused as to why you would insist on running with a knee injury.

Thanks...no problem. 5'11 ~185 now. I have (involuntarily) taken a hiatus from drinking so I expect the bf to drop slightly over the next few months.

I have a small ACL tear from trying to "stick the landing" jumping out of a chopper. Definitely underestimated the weight on me...climbing stairs is a major bitch but running isn't *too* bad. Sometimes twisting in and out of a car aggravates it so I take it easy.

You're an inch shorter and twelve pounds lighter, not much leaner, yet you look bigger.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

I have a small ACL tear from trying to "stick the landing" jumping out of a chopper. Definitely underestimated the weight on me...climbing stairs is a major bitch but running isn't *too* bad. Sometimes twisting in and out of a car aggravates it so I take it easy.

As a guy who was recently medically discharged from the Army, I'll tell you like I tell my buddies still in... the army is shrinking, you GOTTA take care of your body (probably in some ways, better than pro-athletes do). If you have legit injuries/issues, get them checked out, documented and taken care of while you can. I'd say it's better to get out of the army able to run and exercise than it is to receive a higher "percentage" from the VA

Probability of getting any compensation from the IDF is slim to none.

I totally agree with you. They were sending us for training at Nebi Musa which was timed to end right at my release from the army...the way I saw it, there was no point in wrecking myself in a 3 month training program only to be released from the army and likely never engage in reserve duty. So basically I opted for alternative job, teaching n00bs, playing the enemy in training, stuff like that.

Now I'm a DoD sub in the US. I much prefer air conditioned corporate life though this latest conflict has my trigger finger itching...if they called me I'd definitely go for old time's sake. I've got one more good ass kicking left in me.

@trexmeyer... I'm not picking on you just because... but in your "sideview" of your deadlift, I have to ask, does your back naturally have that "hunch" to it?? I ask, because if it doesn't I'd strongly suggest lowering the weight some to really make sure the back is nice and really flat.

I can't tell if your back is doing the same on the "505 deadlift" video, but your form looks pretty good from the front view. Again, I just can't tell from that angle what your back is doing

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
@trexmeyer... I'm not picking on you just because... but in your "sideview" of your deadlift, I have to ask, does your back naturally have that "hunch" to it?? I ask, because if it doesn't I'd strongly suggest lowering the weight some to really make sure the back is nice and really flat.

I can't tell if your back is doing the same on the "505 deadlift" video, but your form looks pretty good from the front view. Again, I just can't tell from that angle what your back is doing

Lower back or upper back? I round my upper back on purpose, thoracic spine bending isn't an issue. If the lumber is rounding, that's bad. I tend to load my lumbar too much, but again I've never had an injury and it isn't extreme. My spinal erectors are strong as hell, but I am tweaking form in order to keep the lumbar straighter.

 trexmeyer wrote:


Lower back or upper back? I round my upper back on purpose, thoracic spine bending isn't an issue. If the lumber is rounding, that's bad. I tend to load my lumbar too much, but again I've never had an injury and it isn't extreme. My spinal erectors are strong as hell, but I am tweaking form in order to keep the lumbar straighter.

Yeah, I was talking upper back... It just looked odd to me is all.

Kinda drift in guys. Let's all agree first we are not docs so make sure it is safe to lift. Then find out what works for you, try to avoid things needing a lot of technique unless someone in person can show you proper technique.:-)

OgreChubbs wrote:
Kinda drift in guys. Let's all agree first we are not docs so make sure it is safe to lift. Then find out what works for you, try to avoid things needing a lot of technique unless someone in person can show you proper technique.:-)

In that vein, research trainers heavily, as much as you can prior to "hiring" them. Some guys are in it for the money, do their "weekend courses" for the cert, and get working... Others really love the profession and helping people with fitness so probably do things to keep their certs and skills related to that sharp.

I disagree 100% on needing a trainer. Is it really that difficult to learn this on your own?

I have never been coached on anything involving weightlifting or nutrition. There is a wealth of information on the internet from reputable sources. Don't trust any single source and for the love of god, stay away from those personal trainers that work FOR gyms. I've known some decent/good ones, but they were never affiliated with a gym.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OgreChubbs wrote:
Kinda drift in guys. Let's all agree first we are not docs so make sure it is safe to lift. Then find out what works for you, try to avoid things needing a lot of technique unless someone in person can show you proper technique.:-)

I've actually had two minor hernias, a broken wrist, broken thumb, and knee problems prior to lifting. I've had LESS injuries since I've started lifting.

 trexmeyer wrote:
I disagree 100% on needing a trainer. Is it really that difficult to learn this on your own?

Form absolutely can be, yes.

 cincydooley wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:
I disagree 100% on needing a trainer. Is it really that difficult to learn this on your own?

Form absolutely can be, yes.

You're implying that either the average person has the motor control skills of an infant or that I am somehow exceptional in being able to train myself without destroying my body. I don't think either is right. All it takes is some effort. Perfect form is unnecessary. As long as it is decent to good an individual can train injury free as long as they don't pull stupid stunts with heavy weights.

Edit:

Don't do beltless lifts unless you want a wide waist...

 trexmeyer wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:
I disagree 100% on needing a trainer. Is it really that difficult to learn this on your own?

Form absolutely can be, yes.

You're implying that either the average person has the motor control skills of an infant or that I am somehow exceptional in being able to train myself without destroying my body. I don't think either is right. All it takes is some effort. Perfect form is unnecessary. As long as it is decent to good an individual can train injury free as long as they don't pull stupid stunts with heavy weights.

Edit:

Don't do beltless lifts unless you want a wide waist...

Spoiler:

I don't really want to argue the point...rather offer an alternative opinion... but I think that you're grossly underestimating just how easy it is to injure yourself with heavy compound movements, even if you try your very hardest to use good form and succeed 99.9% of the time. Tendonitis, ruptured disks, hernias, muscle tears, etc. Orthopedic surgeons wouldn't be driving around in Ferraris if the human body were as resilient as you claim...just sayin'.

On the other hand, you have nice numbers. Good stuff.

I'll leave at this. Warming up and knowing your limits is absolutely crucial. I think most injuries are from people pulling with cold muscles and attempting weights they have no business doing. Case in point, I injured myself twice earlier on, once before I started lifting and once shortly after. First time, I tried to max out on squat despite having no idea how to even squat or having ever squatted before. I felt like I gave myself a borderline hernia doing a half squat with 205. Second time was trying to deadlift 315 cold when my max was around 365. You have to warm up. Even if you are just doing a bodybuilding routine. Hit some chin ups, do some light curls, don't run into the gym and start curling 70's.

As far as bench injuries go I think the majority of these are from going to wide and/or not tucking elbows. I bench extremely close and my elbows only flare on the way up. I can still work my chest with this style of bench, I'm just one of those lucky people that can actually bench for a bigger chest. My brother benches much wider and it doesn't work his chest at all. Some people have to do flyes, dips, or another exercise for chest development. It's very important to find out what activates your muscles instead of simply following one routine assuming you are focusing on physique.

I mean, you can isolate different muscles based on where you grip on a bench press..... I assume that's what you're saying?

 cincydooley wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:
I disagree 100% on needing a trainer. Is it really that difficult to learn this on your own?

Form absolutely can be, yes.

I agree with cincy here.... I mean, the reason why I questioned your form on your deadlift videos was because it's not what most would consider "proper", as everyone I've ever worked with or seen train says basically the same thing: the entire back needs to be flat/straight.


If you feel that you won't get hurt hunching your upper back, then more power to ya. From my own personal experience, I'd say this is dangerous because what your back does on one lift, it can have a tendency to do the same on another lift.... For instance, if you hunched your back on squats, I'd guarantee that you'd hurt yourself, as once the back starts going that way, the rest of it follows suit.



This isn't to say that people have the motor skills of infants, but rather that, many lifts in the weight room are actually very technical. Most people would only need one, perhaps 2 "sessions" with someone teaching them the form for the lift in order to get it right. The key of course, is to build the good form as a habit under lighter weight so that when the heavier weight comes on, they either know when to stop adding, or they keep their form and fail a lift. (Honestly, it's better to fail a set with good form than to complete a set with poor form, IMO)

 trexmeyer wrote:
Absolute minimum after 15 years of lifting (these are doable in 3 or less), 315 bench, 405 squat, 495 deadlift. I would expect more like 365+ bench, 495+squat, 585+ deadlift, 225+ overhead press with my expectations for heavier guys (250+) being higher.

Physique, at least something near this guy. He's a natural lifter and I'm pretty sure he hasn't come near the 15 year mark either.

Spoiler:

He actually deadlifts, but as everyone else apparently knows deadlifts will cripple you for life.

I work out for at least 23 years now and i mostly to keep fit and keep my overweightness in check (Beer belly seems to be a genetic gift to the males of my family). Where is it written that i need to be a muscle ripped mutant within at least 15 years? You set your goals yourself.

cincydooley wrote:I mean, you can isolate different muscles based on where you grip on a bench press..... I assume that's what you're saying?

No. Some people have overdeveloped shoulders or triceps and those take over the bench press. Even if I bench super close grip to hit triceps specifically I still feel it in my chest.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:
I disagree 100% on needing a trainer. Is it really that difficult to learn this on your own?

Form absolutely can be, yes.

I agree with cincy here.... I mean, the reason why I questioned your form on your deadlift videos was because it's not what most would consider "proper", as everyone I've ever worked with or seen train says basically the same thing: the entire back needs to be flat/straight.


If you feel that you won't get hurt hunching your upper back, then more power to ya. From my own personal experience, I'd say this is dangerous because what your back does on one lift, it can have a tendency to do the same on another lift.... For instance, if you hunched your back on squats, I'd guarantee that you'd hurt yourself, as once the back starts going that way, the rest of it follows suit.



This isn't to say that people have the motor skills of infants, but rather that, many lifts in the weight room are actually very technical. Most people would only need one, perhaps 2 "sessions" with someone teaching them the form for the lift in order to get it right. The key of course, is to build the good form as a habit under lighter weight so that when the heavier weight comes on, they either know when to stop adding, or they keep their form and fail a lift. (Honestly, it's better to fail a set with good form than to complete a set with poor form, IMO)

Rounding shoulders on deadlifts isn't uncommon in powerlifting circles. I've had a few decent powerlifters critique my form and the criticism I get is that my hips shoot up to fast or that there is some lower back rounding. At the same time I would never teach someone to deadlift with rounded shoulders. That's a decision you have to make after years of practice.

Jehan-reznor wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:
Absolute minimum after 15 years of lifting (these are doable in 3 or less), 315 bench, 405 squat, 495 deadlift. I would expect more like 365+ bench, 495+squat, 585+ deadlift, 225+ overhead press with my expectations for heavier guys (250+) being higher.

Physique, at least something near this guy. He's a natural lifter and I'm pretty sure he hasn't come near the 15 year mark either.

Spoiler:

He actually deadlifts, but as everyone else apparently knows deadlifts will cripple you for life.

I work out for at least 23 years now and i mostly to keep fit and keep my overweightness in check (Beer belly seems to be a genetic gift to the males of my family). Where is it written that i need to be a muscle ripped mutant within at least 15 years? You set your goals yourself.

Well don't throw around advice on what to do if all you've managed to do in 23 years is not get fat. Even with minimal progressive overload and a mediocre diet you should be pretty fit by that time. Case in point, my dad has lifted and ran his entire life. He used to max out the Army PT regularly. It took me all of a year to smoke his one mile, two mile, and three mile times (best was 20:10) and about a year of lifting to surpass his physique and strength. I wouldn't take any advice he has to offer either because he has no clue as to what he is doing which is why he never made any significant progress.

 trexmeyer wrote:

Well don't throw around advice on what to do if all you've managed to do in 23 years is not get fat. Even with minimal progressive overload and a mediocre diet you should be pretty fit by that time. Case in point, my dad has lifted and ran his entire life. He used to max out the Army PT regularly. It took me all of a year to smoke his one mile, two mile, and three mile times (best was 20:10) and about a year of lifting to surpass his physique and strength. I wouldn't take any advice he has to offer either because he has no clue as to what he is doing which is why he never made any significant progress.

A. Depends on the individual lifters goals... Obviously he felt that he had the time to devote to a decent amount of work outs, but nothing that would get him ready for Mr. Olympia, or MetRX "World's Strongest Man" comps. I'd hazard a guess and say that if he cut out all the "good stuff" from his diet, things would change.

B. Hate to burst your bubble, but maxing the Army PT test is a fething joke... I went to an NCO Academy course having not done pushups with any consistency for about 3 months, nor any ab work, outside of scrumming in rugby for 2 months and STILL came within 2 points of maxing it. the ONLY thing on your list that really can take some time to develop, from a military point of view, is the run time.

 trexmeyer wrote:

If you've been "aggressively" lifting for 14 years you better be big, ripped, or strong as hell. Lifting for 14-15 years is absolutely meaningless without results. You can go f around in college for 14 years and never get a degree, while some people graduate in 3.

I weigh 195 lbs and my last SRM bench was 315, and my last 225 rep test was 19; granted my physique and genetics predispose me to muscle growth. Not that any of this matters, as this is the internet and I have no means of proving any specific claim regarding my strength or athletic ability.

Anyway, your analogy is bad as there is no "degree" when it comes to fitness goals. True, you will eventually attain them if you're working out in a sensible manner*, but unlike a degree those goals require maintenance.



*Noting also that "sensible" will vary greatly from person to person.

I was thinking about starting low weight , high rep, low speed lifting (I have no plan to bulk out) when I quit smoking but after eagerly reading this thread it all sounds complicated.

I do push ups slowly (like 1 every 5 seconds - slow down and slow up) so i figured I should carry this idea through to lifting.

 trexmeyer wrote:

You're implying that either the average person has the motor control skills of an infant or that I am somehow exceptional in being able to train myself without destroying my body.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your form is probably not as good as you think it is. There are several reasons coaches and trainers exist, but one of them is that having an outside observer to correct your mechanics generally ends in those mechanics being better. I know for a fact that both have helped me improve my form, especially when I thought it was good.

 Bullockist wrote:
I was thinking about starting low weight , high rep, low speed lifting (I have no plan to bulk out) when I quit smoking but after eagerly reading this thread it all sounds complicated.

Honestly, if you aren't interested in any specific targets, it isn't. But my suggestion up thread still stands: hire a trainer, even one or two sessions can do worlds of good.

 trexmeyer wrote:

The amount of broscience and general ignorance in this thread has rapidly reached stupefying proportions.

Says the body-builder that desperately needs reassurance.

 dogma wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:

You're implying that either the average person has the motor control skills of an infant or that I am somehow exceptional in being able to train myself without destroying my body.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your form is probably not as good as you think it is. There are several reasons coaches and trainers exist, but one of them is that having an outside observer to correct your mechanics generally ends in those mechanics being better. I know for a fact that both have helped me improve my form, especially when I thought it was good.

 Bullockist wrote:
I was thinking about starting low weight , high rep, low speed lifting (I have no plan to bulk out) when I quit smoking but after eagerly reading this thread it all sounds complicated.

Honestly, if you aren't interested in any specific targets, it isn't. But my suggestion up thread still stands: hire a trainer, even one or two sessions can do worlds of good.

I have videos of my form in this thread. Feel free to correct if you can.

 trexmeyer wrote:

I have videos of my form in this thread. Feel free to correct if you can.

I know: You fail to control the weight in the negative position, consistently. Notably there should be no sound when your deadlift weight hits the mat.

In general, you fail to control the weight you're lifting.

Dude how i train, is my prerogative, who made you Fitness standard setter, get of your high horse. You think you may know all there is to know but guess what, you don't.

So i don't want to be a musclehead that counts his calories all the time. Training is not just about looking ripped (most body builders don't look ripped anyway between competitions), some people like it, it is good to work off work related stress.

That i don't have the same goals as you doesn't mean that i know less about training.

dogma wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:

I have videos of my form in this thread. Feel free to correct if you can.

I know: You fail to control the weight in the negative position, consistently. Notably there should be no sound when your deadlift weight hits the mat.

In general, you fail to control the weight you're lifting.

Literally the funniest thing I've read all day.

Controlling the deadlift on the way down. Hahahahahahahaha. You claim to know anything about powerlifting? Oh my god, just hahahahahahahaha. Seriously? The best part is that you don'te ven know how unbelievably ignorant you are and you believe it.

Jehan-reznor wrote:Dude how i train, is my prerogative, who made you Fitness standard setter, get of your high horse. You think you may know all there is to know but guess what, you don't.

So i don't want to be a musclehead that counts his calories all the time. Training is not just about looking ripped (most body builders don't look ripped anyway between competitions), some people like it, it is good to work off work related stress.

That i don't have the same goals as you doesn't mean that i know less about training.

Based on your posts you know nothing about either bodybuilding or strength training.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jehan-reznor wrote:Second of all, all the advice is nice but first let the fitness trainer teach you the basics, beginners usually go too quick, too heavy. Do basic training until your ligaments become stronger, also slow is good, i see too many guys throw those weights around. For example with bench press, pushing up should be the same speed as lowering it.

Once you get better, experiment with different exercises, everyone is different what works for another guy may not work for you and vice versa.

Not knowing that strength training strengthens bones, ligaments, and tendons. Slow is good? You mean time under tension. A better idea would be to focus on maximizing muscle contraction. Kai Greene has a lot of stuff on the mind-body connection floating around. For strength training every rep should be executed as quickly as possible EVEN if it is done slowly.

But no guys, everything Louie Simmons, Mark Bell, Dan Green, the Lilliebridge clan, etc teach is complete garbage and nonsense. Ignore all of it and go do DB flyes!


Edit: ITT strong ignorance. Seriously though, listen to Nuggz as far as shoulders/lats go, his are good! The rest of you guys lololol.

Just a reminder to the thread in general, Rule 1 (Politeness) applies in the OT as well. Further transgressions will receive warnings

 trexmeyer wrote:

Literally the funniest thing I've read all day.

Controlling the deadlift on the way down. Hahahahahahahaha. You claim to know anything about powerlifting? Oh my god, just hahahahahahahaha. Seriously? The best part is that you don'te ven know how unbelievably ignorant you are and you believe it.

Controlling a deadlift (or any lift) in the negative position is actually quite important, unless your only objective is picking up the biggest weight you can; something only important to competitive lifters. The sort of people featured in your video.

 trexmeyer wrote:
The rest of you guys lololol.

Why are you so defensive?

 trexmeyer wrote:

dogma wrote:

Based on your posts you know nothing about either bodybuilding or strength training.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jehan-reznor wrote:Second of all, all the advice is nice but first let the fitness trainer teach you the basics, beginners usually go too quick, too heavy. Do basic training until your ligaments become stronger, also slow is good, i see too many guys throw those weights around. For example with bench press, pushing up should be the same speed as lowering it.

Once you get better, experiment with different exercises, everyone is different what works for another guy may not work for you and vice versa.

Not knowing that strength training strengthens bones, ligaments, and tendons. Slow is good? You mean time under tension. A better idea would be to focus on maximizing muscle contraction. Kai Greene has a lot of stuff on the mind-body connection floating around. For strength training every rep should be executed as quickly as possible EVEN if it is done slowly.

But no guys, everything Louie Simmons, Mark Bell, Dan Green, the Lilliebridge clan, etc teach is complete garbage and nonsense. Ignore all of it and go do DB flyes!


Edit: ITT strong ignorance. Seriously though, listen to Nuggz as far as shoulders/lats go, his are good! The rest of you guys lololol.

Woaw your narcissistic superiority complex is amazing, is your arrogance natural or do you have a self thought training routine for that too, my advice was perfectly sound, not condescending, and simple for someone who is a beginner ,

For strength training every rep should be executed as quickly as possible EVEN if it is done slowly.

What are you trying to say? explosive reps train different fibers in your muscle then if you do it slowly.