. - Page 2 - Forum

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Jehan-reznor**

Second of all, all the advice is nice but first let the fitness trainer teach you the basics, beginners usually go too quick, too heavy. Do basic training until your ligaments become stronger, also slow is good, i see too many guys throw those weights around. For example with bench press, pushing up should be the same speed as lowering it.

Once you get better, experiment with different exercises, everyone is different what works for another guy may not work for you and vice versa.

**trexmeyer**

Because I am extremely anal about losing internet arguments (not serious) I dug through the Show Yourself! thread. Um, if that's the product of 15 years of lifting I hope you are strong as an ox because you haven't done it right mates.

**dogma**

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Reasonably strong? Having a good strength to bodyweight ratio. I'm not going to provide a concrete definition that we can kill via analysis. The point I'm making is that dangerous heavy compound lifts don't offer any tangible benefit over safer lifting practices for the population that does not compete.

A beginner wants to see results. Serious injuries are antithetical to producing results. IMO, go with the bodybuilding exercises rather than the powerlifting exercises. Just my opinion (15 years lifting weights), take it or leave it.

To add to this: many NFL and NCAA strength coaches specifically tell their athletes to avoid compound power lifts because there are safer ways to achieve the same goals.

To the OP, I've been lifting aggressively for 14 years and this is a rough outline of my current program:

Monday: upper body press, so things like bench (flat, incline, and decline), flyes, and shoulder press.
Tuesday: core work, so things like crunches, bridges, jackknives, etc.
Wednesday: legs, so squats, deadlift, lunges, and abductor/adductor*.
Thursday: core work, same as above.
Friday: upper body pull, so pull-ups, reverse flyes, bent row, etc.

But, at any rate, I think your best bet is to talk to a trainer. That person will be able to assess you and your form far better than people on the internet.

*This is actually a pretty key point, as they are muscle groups many guys ignore because the machines used to target them are often seen as feminine. Do not do this, every other muscle in your lower body will thank you.

**cincydooley**

dogma wrote:

*This is actually a pretty key point, as they are muscle groups many guys ignore because the machines used to target them are often seen as feminine. Do not do this, every other muscle in your lower body will thank you.

Someone's talking bout the "vajayjay machine".

I get looks when I used it all the time. But it'll tell you what, since I started to I haven't had a SINGLE groin pull problem.

Also, Dogma, your sched looks a lot like mine. Nice!

**Frazzled**

Random Dude wrote:
Being a runner, and having completed T25, I am very lean. Since I already have low body fat, my new fitness goal is to build muscle. I saw Body Beast and became interested. Have any of you used it? Can you attest to its effectiveness?

Its ok. I prefer to drink half a case a beer a day and then lay on the sofa with a wiener dog on my chest. Thats how real men train.

**NuggzTheNinja**

I can't speak for everyone else, but 15 years for me means casually when I was 14, more seriously during college, then not at all while I was in the military and after my injury, and now more or less casually. Obviously someone lifting hard and eating clean for 15 years straight will be a monster. I've been as heavy as 200 lbs at 8% bodyfat, and as light as 160 lbs after recovering from my injury. I'm just happy being in better shape than 99% of the population.

But I am curious - maybe we can see some pictures of how much of a mass monster you've become with your superior routine?

**cincydooley**

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

But I am curious - maybe we can see some pictures of how much of a mass monster you've become with your superior routine?

Right???

Its a bro-off!!!

**alanmckenzie**

Random Dude.

I'm not a bodybuilder or anything like it, so I can't really attest to the best ways to go about achieving some really impressive muscle mass or anything, like some of the other posters here can.

But, I am a bit of a runner. And not knowing exactly what you want to achieve (although those Body Beast guys are pretty gigantic), may I suggest having a look at Les Mills' Body Pump?

It's not about getting huge. It's very aerobic, using low weights (getting progresively heavier) and high reps. It's basicly a barbell aerobics class, but I found it great.

Again, you wont get massive, but, going to a couple of classes a week, it really did improve my physique quite a lot (I am naturally a pretty lean runner also), improved my running a great deal (much faster, less injuries/niggles). A power of squats and lunges have really helped my poor runner's knees tremendously.

It might also provide you with a bit of a starting point (with regards to a baseline, and safe techniques and such) if you want to go on to heavy lifting.

Once more, not sure if it's what you're after but might be worth a look. Particularly if you intend to keep up your running.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I support the Bro-off idea....

Automatically Appended Next Post:
From a spectator's point of view, of course.

**Random Dude**

alanmckenzie wrote:
Random Dude.

I'm not a bodybuilder or anything like it, so I can't really attest to the best ways to go about achieving some really impressive muscle mass or anything, like some of the other posters here can.

But, I am a bit of a runner. And not knowing exactly what you want to achieve (although those Body Beast guys are pretty gigantic), may I suggest having a look at Les Mills' Body Pump?

It's not about getting huge. It's very aerobic, using low weights (getting progresively heavier) and high reps. It's basicly a barbell aerobics class, but I found it great.

Again, you wont get massive, but, going to a couple of classes a week, it really did improve my physique quite a lot (I am naturally a pretty lean runner also), improved my running a great deal (much faster, less injuries/niggles). A power of squats and lunges have really helped my poor runner's knees tremendously.

It might also provide you with a bit of a starting point (with regards to a baseline, and safe techniques and such) if you want to go on to heavy lifting.

Once more, not sure if it's what you're after but might be worth a look. Particularly if you intend to keep up your running.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I support the Bro-off idea....

Automatically Appended Next Post:
From a spectator's point of view, of course.

First off, thanks for the advice. I'm not naturally fast, so I'm not a competitive runner. I run purely for aerobic exercise- burn fat, healthy heart. That said, a program that is geared more towards bulk instead of lean mass would be preferable because I'm not focused on speed.

**easysauce**

trexmeyer wrote:
Building muscle is simple

1) Eat a caloric surplus
2) Progressive overload weight training
3) Rest and recovery

That's literally it.

thats acutally not correct...

you need a protein surplus, and a calorie surplus from potatoe chips wont cut it.

some excercises are better then others too,

its also about what KIND of muscle you want,

to the OP:

do you want explosive strength type muscles, lean endurance ones, or a good mix?

low rep high weight is the former, high rep low weight (but over much more range of motion) gets the latter, and both gets both.

I recommend both, but make sure you work out the core muscles first, you wont get strong/large biceps as well if you dont have a strong back/shoulders.

**cincydooley**

I actually have a buddy that competes in CrossFit (yeah, I know...) that recommends the Les Mills program.

So take that as you will.....

**alanmckenzie**

cincydooley wrote:
I actually have a buddy that competes in CrossFit (yeah, I know...) that recommends the Les Mills program.

So take that as you will.....

Yeah, like I said, mr universe ain't using Les Mills.
But for things like core strength, conditioning, aerobic fitness, muscle stamina, general well-being, etc... It's pretty tops.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tell you what though, these CrossFit folks aren't exactly waifs either.

Wasn't really aware of a competitive scene.

http://youtu.be/0oztkKQ4Fb8

**cincydooley**

My buddy has like, sponsorships and stuff, and I think he's opening his own gym.

He's in sort of ridiculous shape. I'm actually nervous to be in his wedding because I'm afraid I'm going to be the least in shape dude there.

**OgreChubbs**

Alot of.... interesting advice here lol. So I have been power lifting for years and love it but the start up should be simple ignore most people who give strange workouts do the basics and work up.

Protein is a must whey protein can help muscle growth a lot if not getting enough protein you can slow your recovery time.

Start with something simple not sure whats heavy for you or whats a good weight only you know that but the general rule of thumb is for heavy weight if you can do more then 6 reps it is to light. Less then 4 and it is too heavy your aim is high sets low reps.

So week 1 day 1.

Break it down to 2 no more then 3 major muscle groups. So say arms "biceps/triceps/shoulders"

Concentration curls aim for 5 sets of 6 reps.
Standard curls 5 sets 6 reps "should be to use more weight here"
Lastly "I like easybar curls" or barbell curls 5 sets 6 reps "should be the most weight"

Dumbell presses 5 of 6
Rows
bench lifts "not sure if thats the actual name or the one I was taught but in short put knee on bench and lean foward place one hand on bench and lift weight to your side"

Over head lifts " forget the name but place dumbell over head and lower it behind your head slowly"
close grip presses

Then day rest and on to day 2

Day 2, Two more major muscles... say Back Chest

Find workouts that work for you and do not repeat them more then 2 before changing the workout our you will Plato

**dogma**

alanmckenzie wrote:

Tell you what though, these CrossFit folks aren't exactly waifs either.

Oh, there is nothing at all wrong with CrossFit as an exercise program. After all, its basically just a branded version of a training methodology that's been around 20+ years, sort of like TRX.

The issue most people take with it is the cultish behavior of many of its practitioners.

**alanmckenzie**

cincydooley wrote:
My buddy has like, sponsorships and stuff, and I think he's opening his own gym.

He's in sort of ridiculous shape. I'm actually nervous to be in his wedding because I'm afraid I'm going to be the least in shape dude there.

Just get everyone nice and drunk before someone shouts a wedding bro-off...

And don't shout a wedding bro-off...

**cincydooley**

dogma wrote:

The issue most people take with it is the cultish behavior of many of its practitioners.

There are a lot of really interesting articles being written about it too.

I know a lot of my friends involved with physical therapy/training aren't huge fans because they see a lot of "poor form" injuries and the like from it.

But at the same time, I have multiple friends that swear by it.

**NuggzTheNinja**

dogma wrote:
alanmckenzie wrote:

Tell you what though, these CrossFit folks aren't exactly waifs either.

Oh, there is nothing at all wrong with CrossFit as an exercise program. After all, its basically just a branded version of a training methodology that's been around 20+ years, sort of like TRX.

The issue most people take with it is the cultish behavior of many of its practitioners.

Crossfit is nice in that it promotes actual usable fitness (unlike bodybuilding workouts, which produce some of the worst strength-to-weight results). As others have said though, the potential for injury is very high and the people are often very weird.

It all depends on your priorities. In college my priorities were to "get big," and I ballooned pretty fast on a strict diet and bodybuilding-type workout regimen. When prepping for the army I intentionally lost a ton of weight and focused on a good strength-to-weight ratio, because being a lean 200 lbs is actually a hindrance if you're injured and most of the guys in your unit aren't able to lift you easily. In a case like that, it was a lot better to be a weaker 170 (and still able to lift an injured man and run with him) than a stronger 200+ lbs. Also, arm and shoulder strength isn't nearly as important in the military as strong legs and core. Nowadays it's just about maintenance and injury recovery.

Long story short - IMO there's no perfect workout for everyone. For OP, throwing him into an Olympic lifting routine is simply crazy. If he's built like a runner he's going to hurt himself. If he wants to put on size there are better ways to do it than Olympic lifting or powerlifting.

**dogma**

cincydooley wrote:

I know a lot of my friends involved with physical therapy/training aren't huge fans because they see a lot of "poor form" injuries and the like from it.

But at the same time, I have multiple friends that swear by it.

Well, as with any program of that sort your experience will vary. But, for whatever reason, CrossFit seems to attract more irresponsible trainers than most and their clients feed off that; annoying (and often hurting) everyone around.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Crossfit is nice in that it promotes actual usable fitness (unlike bodybuilding workouts, which produce some of the worst strength-to-weight results). As others have said though, the potential for injury is very high and the people are often very weird.

It all depends on your priorities. In college my priorities were to "get big," and I ballooned pretty fast on a strict diet and bodybuilding-type workout regimen. When prepping for the army I intentionally lost a ton of weight and focused on a good strength-to-weight ratio, because being a lean 200 lbs is actually a hindrance if you're injured and most of the guys in your unit aren't able to lift you easily. In a case like that, it was a lot better to be a weaker 170 (and still able to lift an injured man and run with him) than a stronger 200+ lbs. Also, arm and shoulder strength isn't nearly as important in the military as strong legs and core. Nowadays it's just about maintenance and injury recovery.

Long story short - IMO there's no perfect workout for everyone. For OP, throwing him into an Olympic lifting routine is simply crazy. If he's built like a runner he's going to hurt himself. If he wants to put on size there are better ways to do it than Olympic lifting or powerlifting.

I agree with everything you said, and will echo that core strength is really important; regardless of any other strength goals.

**cincydooley**

dogma wrote:

Well, as with any program of that sort your experience will vary. But, for whatever reason, CrossFit seems to attract more irresponsible trainers than most and their clients feed off that; annoying (and often hurting) everyone around.
.

True enough. This is one of the articles I read that was a bit....disturbing.....http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-robertson/crossfit-rhabdomyolysis_b_3977598.html

**Ensis Ferrae**

cincydooley wrote:
dogma wrote:

The issue most people take with it is the cultish behavior of many of its practitioners.

There are a lot of really interesting articles being written about it too.

I know a lot of my friends involved with physical therapy/training aren't huge fans because they see a lot of "poor form" injuries and the like from it.

But at the same time, I have multiple friends that swear by it.

If you've seen my pics in the "show yourself" threads, you'll know I'm a hooker on a rugby club

I personally hate, HATE CF, but it's more due to the cult-like behavior, and the "reps over form" combined with the fanatical addiction to these random "Workout of the Day" things... Joe Weider developed 5 principles to weight training, one of which was muscle confusion. My guess (and it's really is just a hunch) is that CF is using these completely random "WOD" system to promote this muscle confusion, but instead I think it goes into the "muscle delirium" stage (completely made up term) where, instead of having a bit of confusion in the muscles to promote growth, there is so much confusion that the muscles CANT grow in a proper fashion.

Basically, if you know a bit about working out with and without weights, or if you're already in moderate shape, CF is probably a bad idea.

If you are completely new to fitness altogether, have never lifted, or haven't lifted in like, 20 years, CF can whip you into shape to join a "real" gym and get actual workout plans and advice from people who actually know what the feth theyre talking about.

**Bullockist**

Frazzled wrote:
Random Dude wrote:
Being a runner, and having completed T25, I am very lean. Since I already have low body fat, my new fitness goal is to build muscle. I saw Body Beast and became interested. Have any of you used it? Can you attest to its effectiveness?

Its ok. I prefer to drink half a case a beer a day and then lay on the sofa with a wiener dog on my chest. Thats how real men train.

The cardio value of having a pet on your chest whilst on the couch can not be under estimated. It's just like resistance exercise, just better.

**trexmeyer**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
cincydooley wrote:
dogma wrote:

The issue most people take with it is the cultish behavior of many of its practitioners.

There are a lot of really interesting articles being written about it too.

I know a lot of my friends involved with physical therapy/training aren't huge fans because they see a lot of "poor form" injuries and the like from it.

But at the same time, I have multiple friends that swear by it.

If you've seen my pics in the "show yourself" threads, you'll know I'm a hooker on a rugby club I personally hate, HATE CF, but it's more due to the cult-like behavior, and the "reps over form" combined with the fanatical addiction to these random "Workout of the Day" things... Joe Weider developed 5 principles to weight training, one of which was muscle confusion. My guess (and it's really is just a hunch) is that CF is using these completely random "WOD" system to promote this muscle confusion, but instead I think it goes into the "muscle delirium" stage (completely made up term) where, instead of having a bit of confusion in the muscles to promote growth, there is so much confusion that the muscles CANT grow in a proper fashion.

Basically, if you know a bit about working out with and without weights, or if you're already in moderate shape, CF is probably a bad idea.

If you are completely new to fitness altogether, have never lifted, or haven't lifted in like, 20 years, CF can whip you into shape to join a "real" gym and get actual workout plans and advice from people who actually know what the feth theyre talking about.

Muscle Confusion has been debunked hundreds of times. Only reason to run a program less than 3 months is if it is specifically a tapering or peaking program for strength.

The amount of broscience and general ignorance in this thread has rapidly reached stupefying proportions. If you've been "aggressively" lifting for 14 years you better be big, ripped, or strong as hell. Lifting for 14-15 years is absolutely meaningless without results. You can go f around in college for 14 years and never get a degree, while some people graduate in 3.

**cincydooley**

And we're back to what, exactly, "strong as hell" means.

**trexmeyer**

Absolute minimum after 15 years of lifting (these are doable in 3 or less), 315 bench, 405 squat, 495 deadlift. I would expect more like 365+ bench, 495+squat, 585+ deadlift, 225+ overhead press with my expectations for heavier guys (250+) being higher.

Physique, at least something near this guy. He's a natural lifter and I'm pretty sure he hasn't come near the 15 year mark either.

Spoiler:

He actually deadlifts, but as everyone else apparently knows deadlifts will cripple you for life.

**Ensis Ferrae**

trexmeyer wrote:

Muscle Confusion has been debunked hundreds of times. Only reason to run a program less than 3 months is if it is specifically a tapering or peaking program for strength.

If it has been debunked "hundreds of times" then why do researchers and professionals keep coming back to it over and over again? Sure, Joe Weider was pioneering a new "sport" and found what worked for him and the guys he trained.

The Muscle Confusion Principle ///
What it is: The Weider Muscle Confusion Principle involves constantly changing the acute variables in your workout such as number of sets, number of reps, exercise choice, exercise order, and the length of rest periods. This alternation is designed to prevent you from getting in a rut and slowing or stalling your progress.

The research says: A study conducted by researchers at the Tempe campus of Arizona State University compared two groups of trained subjects, one using an undulating periodization program—a fancy term for muscle confusion—and the other with a linear periodization program. In the undulating program, the acute variables were changed with every workout, whereas in the linear program, they were changed every few weeks. After 12 weeks, people following the undulating periodization program increased their bench press and leg press strength by 100 percent more than those following the linear program.

Researchers from Brazil saw even more drastic differences when they had trained subjects follow one of three programs: an undulating periodization program, a linear periodization program, or a consistent non-periodized program of 8-10 reps per set. The training program consisted of a two-day split with 3-4 total training days per week.

After 12 weeks, the group following the muscle confusion program increased its bench press by about 60 pounds, almost 200 percent more than both the linear periodization program and the non-periodized program. The undulating program also increased the subjects' strength on the leg press by a staggering 275 pounds, 400 percent more than the non-periodized program and more than 300 percent more than the linear program.

This principle can apply to muscle growth as well as strength. Researchers from the Federal University of Rio De Janeiro had a group of untrained men follow a linear periodization program of two sets of 12-15 reps per exercise for four weeks, then three sets of 8-10 reps per exercises for four weeks, and finally four sets of 3-5 reps per exercise for the final four weeks.

Meanwhile, a group used those same set and rep ranges but cycled them each time they trained. The results: The group following the undulating plan increased its triceps size by about five percent, while the linear group saw no such increase. The undulating group also increased its biceps size by 10 percent—twice that of the linear group.

How to use it: Simply change acute training variables every workout. One of the easiest ways to do this is to change the weight and the rep ranges you use. You could use heavy weight and low reps (5-7) in one chest workout, light weight and high reps (20-30) in the next, then moderate weight and moderate reps (8-10), and finally light weight and high reps (12-15).

Granted, this particular bit of article came from bodybuilding.com, so will be biased towards those who want large, yet "pretty" muscles, but I've yet to find anything contrary to "The muscle confusion principle, when used properly works"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

trexmeyer wrote:

He actually deadlifts, but as everyone else apparently knows deadlifts will cripple you for life.

Only if you deadlift in a Cross Fit workout

**cincydooley**

trexmeyer wrote:

He actually deadlifts, but as everyone else apparently knows deadlifts will cripple you for life.

Wow...that's a pretty big leap there, eh? None of us said that deadlifts were bad lifts. We said they were unnecessarily risky lifts for a beginner that didn't have a lifting partner or trainer.

But, you know, I appreciate huge leaps in arguments as much as the next guy.

**trexmeyer**

I have not once heard anyone refer to an undulating periodization program as muscle confusion. Every description of muscle confusion I am familiar with involves constantly changing the workout or program in order to continue progressing.

Periodization has nothing to do with muscle confusion. It's simply varying intensity and volume over a training block in order to develop the CNS and muscular hypertrophy in different stages and to allow recovery in both. You're not "confusing the muscles."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
IMO unless you're powerlifting, skip the heavy compound lifts. They're dangerous. I'm sure people will say, "not if you use good form!" Yes, even if you use good form, they're dangerous. Not necessarily guaranteed to hurt you, but the potential is very much there.

dogma wrote:

To add to this: many NFL and NCAA strength coaches specifically tell their athletes to avoid compound power lifts because there are safer ways to achieve the same goals.

cincydooley wrote:
trexmeyer wrote:

He actually deadlifts, but as everyone else apparently knows deadlifts will cripple you for life.

Wow...that's a pretty big leap there, eh? None of us said that deadlifts were bad lifts. We said they were unnecessarily risky lifts for a beginner that didn't have a lifting partner or trainer.

But, you know, I appreciate huge leaps in arguments as much as the next guy.

Two people said deadlifts or heavy compounds are inherently dangerous.

I've rarely trained with a partner. I've been deadlifting for the last 2.5 years without an injury. It's not exactly difficult to record yourself lifting, analyze the dozens of how to deadlift videos out there (Mark Bell has the best ones), and make corrections.

**NuggzTheNinja**

This is after a 5 mile run so I'm obviously not pumped. Strong as hell? lol...I don't know, but not bad for a guy with 3 herniated disks and a knee injury who drinks 3 cocktails a night.

Spoiler:

You keep talking about the magic of heavy compound lifts. Let's see the Herculean physique you've developed doing it the right way.

**trexmeyer**

Not bad at all, actually envious of your shoulders, more impressed that you actually delivered. Height/weight?

I'm a bit confused as to why you would insist on running with a knee injury.