Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 d-usa wrote:
She was ticketed in Atlantic County. She is from PA.

Good spot. I just looked at google maps and man, that is a very unlikely wrong turn.




The red broken lines are Atlantic County. Even assuming she was caught literally on the county border, she's driven nearly halfway across New Jersey.

I now wonder if the reason that they're not going for a lesser charge, dropping it entirely, etc etc are that there is a side to this story not yet reported (BLAME THE VICTIM!!!!).

 Ouze wrote:


I now wonder if the reason that they're not going for a lesser charge, dropping it entirely, etc etc are that there is a side to this story not yet reported (BLAME THE VICTIM!!!!).

As I said earlier, there are dash cams in the police cruisers that are going to see the officer during the stop. This means that, even IF he *wants* to let her off with a warning, etc. he cant because there's evidence of him not doing his job.

There could have been an air of belligerence about the woman, but this very easily could be a case of "dwb, AND she has a gun!!"

Overall though, I do agree that there's more to this story than what has been said in the media.

By "dropping it" I referred to the prosecutor, not the arresting officer. I agree that a patrol officer probably doesn't have discretion to drop anything above minor speeding infractions.

Hey kids lets talk about why we have the right to have guns!!

Is it because we like to hunt? Though alot of people think this but nooooo

WE have the right to own guns for the sole purpose of defending our country from tyranny in other words if our goverment turns on the people we can defend our selves!!


Now for all you non americans yes you have a voice and your country is doing well without guns GREAT but please keep in mind that you are at the UTTER mercy of your goverment!
(Even though if americas goverment went to hell in a hand basket we would have problems with drones)

My point is yes some states need to change the methods on giving disturbed people weapons! That is it! if someone who knows real gun owners in america they look at their guns like what they are a dangerous snake treating it with respect.

My gun is a old WW2 M1 grande compact versions (used by para troopers) that my grand pa gave me and I treat it with more repect and understanding that you could not even imagine! I get nervous itches having anyone touch it... Its a bond almost like a pet a dangerous pet that you are so protective of that having others touch it scares you!!

FUN FACT FOR ALL YOU NOOBS: Please never ever ever EVER put your finger on the trigger unless you are aiming and prepared to fire! I hate seeing people holding guns with their fingers on the triggers

Well that was quite a post.

Really glad you could provide this well articulated education for all us NOOBS.

 cincydooley wrote:
Well that was quite a post.

What was that that I just read???

FUN FACT FOR ALL YOU NOOBS: Please never ever ever EVER put your finger on the trigger unless you are aiming and prepared to fire! I hate seeing people holding guns with their fingers on the triggers

Wussy. Real men don't use triggers. Real men bite the bullets until they go off.

Did I mention She Who Must Be Obeyed did her first IDPA match saturday and didn't shoot me?

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Well that was quite a post.

What was that that I just read???

Yeah, that was pretty much my sentiment, too.

 Ouze wrote:
It's interesting to see the usual "personal responsibility" types coming out here and saying it's an innocent mistake and ignorance of the law is sort of OK when it's guns. Pretty hypocritical. Let the thread be about healthcare, giant sodas, unemployment, or welfare, though...

Could you name some of these people for us, Ouze, or are you just making gak up in a desperate bid to look above it all?

I'm a "personal responsibility" type and I think she should have known the law.

I also don't think she needs to be in prison.

And I'm also a bit shocked that she was pulled over for failing to signal a lane switch.

I'm not saying its an innocent mistake. I'm saying yarg, stay away from New Jersey.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
1. Gun control should be mandated on a federal level, not left up to the individual States.

According to which state's model of gun control?

Most people, depending on which side of the gun control debate they fall on, would either wildly support or reject federal blanket gun control regulations.

 Seaward wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
It's interesting to see the usual "personal responsibility" types coming out here and saying it's an innocent mistake and ignorance of the law is sort of OK when it's guns. Pretty hypocritical. Let the thread be about healthcare, giant sodas, unemployment, or welfare, though...

Could you name some of these people for us, Ouze, or are you just making gak up in a desperate bid to look above it all?

yeah, i dont see anyone saying its ok to be ignorant of the laws,

I do see people saying something to the effect of:

"well, sure the law says to hop on one foot, do a spin, then sing a nursery ryme for state A, but in in state b you have to wave an arm at the same time, and sing itsy bitsy spider, but for the LOVE OF GOD dont sing itsy bitzy spider in state C"

type laws are unreasonable to expect everyone to keep in their heads 100% of the time, aside from them doing NOTHING to help anyone.

its like requiring drivers in state A to drive on the left hand side, stabe B the right, state C has some weird three lane system, and then complaining about how "irresponsable" all the drivers who get confused are, confusing laws, confuse people, ignorance is not an excuse, but unreasonable, non-uniform, ever changing, non-posted and overly complicated laws are unacceptable as well.

its a bit like not posting speed limits, and expecting everyone to know every speed limit for every single street, at all times, because, hey, ignorance of the law is no excuse right?

even responsable people have limits to how many common sense defying laws they can remember, let alone know to look for, especially when they didnt plan to be in a certain state in the first place.

as to "how did she take the wrong turn" its entirely plausable, distances between states is not that great, plenty of people will drive for 3+ hours in the wrong direction without noticing.


So while being ignorant isnt an excuse,

the laws have no excuse for being so obtuse,

and the punishment has no excuse for being so disproportionate to the crime

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

It's interesting to see the usual "personal responsibility" types coming out here and saying it's an innocent mistake and ignorance of the law is sort of OK when it's guns. Pretty hypocritical. Let the thread be about healthcare, giant sodas, unemployment, or welfare, though...

While I do think this really is an "innocent mistake" it's one that could easily have been avoided... I'm unfamiliar with the PA CCW courses/laws, but in all of the CCW courses that I've seen across many states, reciprocity IS a key point in the instruction. Failure to look up and see that your state doesn't have reciprocity with the VAST majority of the states bordering it (I think I've seen somewhere the of the 5 states directly bordering PA, only 1 has reciprocity for CCW holders, which is pretty bad, IMO), should have some punishment with it, if the situation warrants it.


IMO, in THIS exact situation with the lady in the OP, she at most should have gotten a ticket/citation with a fine (as in, basically a speeding ticket, and a "don't do it again" warning)... Now, if the situation were somehow different, then the punishment should be different as well. But, minimum jail time really is horrible.

In PA there is no mandatory course. There is reading material obviously, but no test at the end to make sure that you've read or comprehended any of it.

I think the fact that she has her CCW in one state should perhaps be on her favor, regardless of the law. The fact that she has her CCW and properly disclosed to the cop that she was carrying would indicate to me that she's probably a 'more responsible" gun owner, but I still think you have to be aware of the laws in surrounding states if you're going to live near a border.

I'm just fortunate that my two borders are Indiana and Kentucky

 easysauce wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
It's interesting to see the usual "personal responsibility" types coming out here and saying it's an innocent mistake and ignorance of the law is sort of OK when it's guns. Pretty hypocritical. Let the thread be about healthcare, giant sodas, unemployment, or welfare, though...

Could you name some of these people for us, Ouze, or are you just making gak up in a desperate bid to look above it all?

yeah, i dont see anyone saying its ok to be ignorant of the laws,

I do see people saying something to the effect of:

"well, sure the law says to hop on one foot, do a spin, then sing a nursery ryme for state A, but in in state b you have to wave an arm at the same time, and sing itsy bitsy spider, but for the LOVE OF GOD dont sing itsy bitzy spider in state C"

type laws are unreasonable to expect everyone to keep in their heads 100% of the time, aside from them doing NOTHING to help anyone.

its like requiring drivers in state A to drive on the left hand side, stabe B the right, state C has some weird three lane system, and then complaining about how "irresponsable" all the drivers who get confused are, confusing laws, confuse people, ignorance is not an excuse, but unreasonable, non-uniform, ever changing, non-posted and overly complicated laws are unacceptable as well.

its a bit like not posting speed limits, and expecting everyone to know every speed limit for every single street, at all times, because, hey, ignorance of the law is no excuse right?

even responsable people have limits to how many common sense defying laws they can remember, let alone know to look for, especially when they didnt plan to be in a certain state in the first place.

as to "how did she take the wrong turn" its entirely plausable, distances between states is not that great, plenty of people will drive for 3+ hours in the wrong direction without noticing.


So while being ignorant isnt an excuse,

the laws have no excuse for being so obtuse,

and the punishment has no excuse for being so disproportionate to the crime

If "your permit is not valid in this state" is this complicated for you then maybe it's a sign that you are not ready to handle a firearm.

 cincydooley wrote:
I think the fact that she has her CCW in one state should perhaps be on her favor, regardless of the law. The fact that she has her CCW and properly disclosed to the cop that she was carrying would indicate to me that she's probably a 'more responsible" gun owner, but I still think you have to be aware of the laws in surrounding states if you're going to live near a border.

I'm just fortunate that my two borders are Indiana and Kentucky

She definitely should NOT have told the LEO that she was carrying.

Agreed - I don't know if she was irresponsible...maybe ignorant is a better word for it.

NJ...nothanksjeff, notevenonce.jpg.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:


If "your permit is not valid in this state" is this complicated for you then maybe it's a sign that you are not ready to handle a firearm.

Nowhere on a PA carry permit, or on the literature they give you to accompany it, does it say ANYTHING about reciprocity. The onus is on the gun owner to do the research. It's not as if she read it and didn't understand what it meant. Stop being ridiculous.

 d-usa wrote:

If "your permit is not valid in this state" is this complicated for you then maybe it's a sign that you are not ready to handle a firearm.

oh, I didnt realize that was posted on a sign at the entrance to the state in question to warn inadvertant entrants of the laws.

So d-usa, you are saying that if every single road sign with the max speed were removed, that you would memorize every speed limit and happily pay all speeding fines you incurred for those you forgot?

good to know, us dumb people cant keep every single law on the books in our head.. heck why do they even have books with people like you who just know everything at all times.

I assume you want to prosecute gay people in states that still have anti sodomy laws too then? ignorance =/= defence and all that?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I think the fact that she has her CCW in one state should perhaps be on her favor, regardless of the law. The fact that she has her CCW and properly disclosed to the cop that she was carrying would indicate to me that she's probably a 'more responsible" gun owner, but I still think you have to be aware of the laws in surrounding states if you're going to live near a border.

I'm just fortunate that my two borders are Indiana and Kentucky

She definitely should NOT have told the LEO that she was carrying.

Agreed - I don't know if she was irresponsible...maybe ignorant is a better word for it.

NJ...nothanksjeff, notevenonce.jpg.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:


If "your permit is not valid in this state" is this complicated for you then maybe it's a sign that you are not ready to handle a firearm.

Nowhere on a PA carry permit, or on the literature they give you to accompany it, does it say ANYTHING about reciprocity. The onus is on the gun owner to do the research. It's not as if she read it and didn't understand what it meant. Stop being a child.

Nowhere in the PA carry permit does it say that it entitles you to carry everywhere in the US. Stop being a child.

 easysauce wrote:

I assume you want to prosecute gay people in states that still have anti sodomy laws too then? ignorance =/= defence and all that?

I would, cos that gak is just icky. Disgusting and wrong.

 easysauce wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

If "your permit is not valid in this state" is this complicated for you then maybe it's a sign that you are not ready to handle a firearm.

oh, I didnt realize that was posted on a sign at the entrance to the state in question to warn inadvertant entrants of the laws.

So d-usa, you are saying that if every single road sign with the max speed were removed, that you would memorize every speed limit and happily pay all speeding fines you incurred for those you forgot?

good to know, us dumb people cant keep every single law on the books in our head.. heck why do they even have books with people like you who just know everything at all times.

I assume you want to prosecute gay people in states that still have anti sodomy laws too then? ignorance =/= defence and all that?

Are you 12?

Edit: and just for clarification. I did have to memorize every speed limit for every type of street in the state for which if am licensed to drive in. It's part of the test. So if every speed limit with was removed I am in fact expected to know what the speed limit is. If I want to drive in another state it is my responsibility to know the local laws.

 d-usa wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I think the fact that she has her CCW in one state should perhaps be on her favor, regardless of the law. The fact that she has her CCW and properly disclosed to the cop that she was carrying would indicate to me that she's probably a 'more responsible" gun owner, but I still think you have to be aware of the laws in surrounding states if you're going to live near a border.

I'm just fortunate that my two borders are Indiana and Kentucky

She definitely should NOT have told the LEO that she was carrying.

Agreed - I don't know if she was irresponsible...maybe ignorant is a better word for it.

NJ...nothanksjeff, notevenonce.jpg.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:


If "your permit is not valid in this state" is this complicated for you then maybe it's a sign that you are not ready to handle a firearm.

Nowhere on a PA carry permit, or on the literature they give you to accompany it, does it say ANYTHING about reciprocity. The onus is on the gun owner to do the research. It's not as if she read it and didn't understand what it meant. Stop being a child.

Nowhere in the PA carry permit does it say that it entitles you to carry everywhere in the US. Stop being a child.

Your logic is truly impeccable. Where does it say in the US legal code that you're allowed to blink?

Nowhere. Legal code isn't 40k rules. It's not a permissive rule set. Try again.

 Ouze wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Also, note that federal law allows you to transport a gun through a state if you're just passing through, even if the gun wouldn't be legal in that state. The article in the OP seems to be trying to portray this as a case of an innocent traveler being arrested just for trying to cross through a state with strict gun control laws, when it really isn't.

Judging by the fact it's a tiny pistol, I suspect she had the gun in her purse or on her hip. If so, that would not be "transporting" in the sense of the FOPA; it would be carrying. That's a big distinction here.

Well yeah, that was my point. The article in the OP is presenting this like poor abused gun owners aren't allowed to travel through anti-gun states without getting arrested, when in reality this wasn't what happened. She wasn't just trying to get through New Jersey to another state where her gun would be legal, she just didn't bother to check if her gun would be legal (or didn't care). If you aren't as stupid as this woman it is possible to cross all those evil anti-gun states and not be trapped by a "leave your guns behind or never travel" wall if you happen to live next to one.

I also think mandatory minimums are horrible law and she should have been let off with a warning. Prosecuting her serves the law, but not justice.

IMO confiscate the gun, revoke her concealed carry permit. She's obviously not meeting the standard of being aware of gun laws, so why should she be trusted to carry a gun in situations where you need to know what the law allows.

 Peregrine wrote:


IMO confiscate the gun, revoke her concealed carry permit. She's obviously not meeting the standard of being aware of gun laws, so why should she be trusted to carry a gun in situations where you need to know what the law allows.

Well that's quite a leap. Confiscation and revocation? Based on......

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I think the fact that she has her CCW in one state should perhaps be on her favor, regardless of the law. The fact that she has her CCW and properly disclosed to the cop that she was carrying would indicate to me that she's probably a 'more responsible" gun owner, but I still think you have to be aware of the laws in surrounding states if you're going to live near a border.

I'm just fortunate that my two borders are Indiana and Kentucky

She definitely should NOT have told the LEO that she was carrying.

Agreed - I don't know if she was irresponsible...maybe ignorant is a better word for it.

NJ...nothanksjeff, notevenonce.jpg.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:


If "your permit is not valid in this state" is this complicated for you then maybe it's a sign that you are not ready to handle a firearm.

Nowhere on a PA carry permit, or on the literature they give you to accompany it, does it say ANYTHING about reciprocity. The onus is on the gun owner to do the research. It's not as if she read it and didn't understand what it meant. Stop being a child.

Nowhere in the PA carry permit does it say that it entitles you to carry everywhere in the US. Stop being a child.

Your logic is truly impeccable. Where does it say in the US legal code that you're allowed to blink?

Nowhere. Legal code isn't 40k rules. It's not a permissive rule set. Try again.

Have fun in jail.

Meanwhile PA and NJ have permissive rule sets. What's allowed in PA isn't allowed in NJ. When you drive halfway across NJ you better learn the law or enjoy the consequences.

 easysauce wrote:
oh, I didnt realize that was posted on a sign at the entrance to the state in question to warn inadvertant entrants of the laws.

There was no mistake involved. She deliberately entered New Jersey for a party.

good to know, us dumb people cant keep every single law on the books in our head..

That's why there's google. You know that gun control is a controversial subject and laws vary from state to state, so if you're traveling to a different state you'd better check the laws. Or you could just be safe and leave your gun at home.

I assume you want to prosecute gay people in states that still have anti sodomy laws too then? ignorance =/= defence and all that?

No, because those laws have been ruled unconstitutional and can not be enforced. In some places they still exist because nobody has bothered to remove them, but any attempt to prosecute someone under them is just going to get thrown out of court as soon as you file the charges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:
Well that's quite a leap. Confiscation and revocation? Based on......

That's what the law should be instead of a 3-year minimum sentence. Confiscate the gun just like other illegal items (drugs, etc) are confiscated, and her own state should revoke the permit because she's clearly too stupid to own a gun and carry it in public.

 Peregrine wrote:


That's what the law should be instead of a 3-year minimum sentence. Confiscate the gun just like other illegal items (drugs, etc) are confiscated, and her own state should revoke the permit because she's clearly too stupid to own a gun and carry it in public.

Well, no. The item itself certainly wasn't illegal. Carrying it was.

 d-usa wrote:


Have fun in jail.

Meanwhile PA and NJ have permissive rule sets. What's allowed in PA isn't allowed in NJ. When you drive halfway across NJ you better learn the law or enjoy the consequences.

Somebody obviously doesn't know what a permissive rule set means.

So wait...you have the same attitude when it comes to anti-sodomy laws? This point of view reeks of authority worship.

 Peregrine wrote:

I assume you want to prosecute gay people in states that still have anti sodomy laws too then? ignorance =/= defence and all that?

No, because those laws have been ruled unconstitutional and can not be enforced. In some places they still exist because nobody has bothered to remove them, but any attempt to prosecute someone under them is just going to get thrown out of court as soon as you file the charges.

If only there was a part of the constitution that protected the right to keep and bare firearms like the "right to have sodomy sex" amendmant.

you may as well tell people that sodomy is controversial, and to should do extensive research on every place they are allowed to be have sodomy sex in or leave their sodomizing at home.

again, speed limits are the law,

do we expect everyone to know every single speed limit ever, or do we POST the laws in the relevant areas so that its clear and evident that the rules in that particular area have changed from the area you just left.

 Ouze wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
She was ticketed in Atlantic County. She is from PA.

Good spot. I just looked at google maps and man, that is a very unlikely wrong turn.




The red broken lines are Atlantic County. Even assuming she was caught literally on the county border, she's driven nearly halfway across New Jersey.

I now wonder if the reason that they're not going for a lesser charge, dropping it entirely, etc etc are that there is a side to this story not yet reported (BLAME THE VICTIM!!!!).

Yep, blows the 'by accident' excuse outta the water for this incident.

Oops.