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It doesn't have to be more complicated to have modelled effects that bear resemblance to the weapons historical performance.

Could have been modelled using the existing mechanics.

I dont buy the 'its like a movie version' excuse. That just seems like an excuse for not trying to model the historical side.

Any WW2 game that makes LMGs, the fundamental element of WW2 infantry firepower little better than two rifles is not a WW2 game that suits my tastes. Its too 'gamey' and that leads to ahistorical lists. And thats without the other issues I have seen discussed on the games forum.

It maybe fun, but it bears no relation to WW2 aside from the figures for me.

But as a game designed to bring 40k players into some form of historical gaming, it does the job extremely well.

Im yet to find a good, fun skirmish WW2 game that is reasonably accurate in abstracting a degree of historical accuracy, rewards hisyorical tactical play and doesnt reward cheesey ahistorical list building. Its why I tend to play at the next level up...

http://www.warlordgames.com/guide-to-bolt-action-for-40k-players/

Nice page they did; I suppose most of their new player base are 40k players

Already posted by BrookM. Sorry.

Two posts above yours, I posted it earlier today, unless you got me on ignore.

Missed it, BrookM. Didn't parse it because it didn't have any intro text---even thought he link's title explains exactly what it is.

Don't have you or anyone, for that matter, on ignore.

That link is great. Definitely something I am going to print and share with everyone at my demo game.

 BrookM wrote:
Sticking to 28mm myself, there's plenty of other companies out there with minis. I'm seriously tempted to get a box of 8th Army and DAK minis from the Perry twins, those boxes have more than enough models for some nice 500 pt platoons.

+1 on the Perry Miniatures stuff. Had some of theirs before and the sculpting is brilliant.

Really hoping the Perry's go on to do more WWII plastics sooner or later.

So for those who have been playing BA for awhile - how many of the various plastics boxed sets would you need for a reasonable sized force? I'm getting a few to make some forces to play with my mates at home here. I've got a few already, so just looking to "top up" and sort out some forces.

I'm looking making 10 forces using the following kits as the bases - not huge armies, but also medium(?)-sized forces based around at least 2(?) of each box. Similar to what I've been doing with KoW armies and plan to with SAGA warbands, 40k forces (if I ever go back to 40k), etc. A "typical" size for BA kinda thing... Would 3 boxes be better?

US Marines
Japanese
Soviets
British Infantry
British Commandoes
US Infantry
Early Germans (Blitzkrieg)
Mid-Late Germans
Perry DAK
Perry Desert Rats

Also, what about vehicles included in the above? Hanomags? M3 Halftracks? T-34s?

I know I could work out army lists, but I'm not familiar with the rules yet (I have a few books) and am really just looking into picking up some boxes and then going from there based on the figures in hand instead of list building and then buying specifically...

One of my local gaming clubs has got into bolt action in a big way this year, and I don't get what the fuss is about.

It's just 2nd edition 40K with a new initiative system bolted on. There's no hiding it.
And I don't see how a 20 year old set of clunky rules is such a great thing.

Then add in the fact that warlord's models for the game are generally really oddly proportioned and I just don't see why people rant and rave about it.

There's much better systems out there for world war two skirmish, and much better miniature lines as well.

Am I missing something, have I just become a grumpy old git?

 Tamereth wrote:
One of my local gaming clubs has got into bolt action in a big way this year, and I don't get what the fuss is about.

It's just 2nd edition 40K with a new initiative system bolted on. There's no hiding it.
And I don't see how a 20 year old set of clunky rules is such a great thing.

Then add in the fact that warlord's models for the game are generally really oddly proportioned and I just don't see why people rant and rave about it.

There's much better systems out there for world war two skirmish, and much better miniature lines as well.

Am I missing something, have I just become a grumpy old git?

I think you're just a grumpy old git. 2nd edition 40k was mostly fine except for the overly complicated CC that BA hasn't carried across anyway and 2nd ed 40k was overly complicated where BA is actually quite simple and the change from IGOUGO to the order dice system is a pretty fething huge fundamental difference in how the game was played.

I agree the models are "meh", but there's a lot of alternative models, you don't have to buy the Warlord Games ones.

Yes, but lots of games use different turn sequencing.

Pulling dice for a random turn sequence isnt new. Arc of Fire did the same thing 10 years ago with a card deck, only difference is with BA people buy coloured dice to use...

Tamerath, thank goodness for another 'grumpy git'.

Its a simple system, that works well for tournament games but has little historical flavour. Im hoping it will work well for the sci-fi varient though.

I guess the similar style of rulebook, army book and figure range all from one source makes it an easy system to get into for ex-GW players.

Im certainly grumpy as I come out in hives when I see people asking what 'faction' they are 'running' for BA, then call history 'fluff', build lists that are historically as likely as armed Nazi Gorillas (though I would buy them) and call flamethrowers 'flamers'. Its just not my cup of tea.

I wonder if its a generational thing to a degree, but I doubt it. WW2 is a much more personal thing to me. Its a lot more than a movie, a video game or a poor documentary on the history channel. But then I have always been a history nerd, even lectured on Military History and Normandy.

But im glad to see a historical system do well, hopefully some who play it will delve deeper into the history and learn to appreciate that this event was real and respect those who did it for real. A wider awareness of history can only be a good thing and if they learn while playing a fun game, then old gronards can't be too aghast at it.

I thought Warlords recent guide for 40k players put that over well.

And anyway, however you play toy soldiers is up to you, just have fun doing it.

 Azazelx wrote:
So for those who have been playing BA for awhile - how many of the various plastics boxed sets would you need for a reasonable sized force? I'm getting a few to make some forces to play with my mates at home here. I've got a few already, so just looking to "top up" and sort out some forces.

I'm looking making 10 forces using the following kits as the bases - not huge armies, but also medium(?)-sized forces based around at least 2(?) of each box. Similar to what I've been doing with KoW armies and plan to with SAGA warbands, 40k forces (if I ever go back to 40k), etc. A "typical" size for BA kinda thing... Would 3 boxes be better?

US Marines
Japanese
Soviets
British Infantry
British Commandoes
US Infantry
Early Germans (Blitzkrieg)
Mid-Late Germans
Perry DAK
Perry Desert Rats

Also, what about vehicles included in the above? Hanomags? M3 Halftracks? T-34s?

I know I could work out army lists, but I'm not familiar with the rules yet (I have a few books) and am really just looking into picking up some boxes and then going from there based on the figures in hand instead of list building and then buying specifically...

It depends on what experience level you field your men at.

A Perry DAK box plus a SdKFz Puma and a Panzer IV can make you 1000pts. 3 10 man vet squads with a LMG, SMG, MP44 in each, Mortar Squad, another specialist squad, and the two vehicles.

Vehicles depend on what you want. A Transport is helpful to move men around, but the heaviest tanks may struggle to make back their points. The flip side some of the heaviest tanks may be very hard to take down for some armies.

Some general concepts:

Russians spam men, so their armies will have a larger body count
Germans have better LMGs and a more resilient command structure
Brits get artillery cheaper and I forget what else
Americans are more mobile (no move and fire penalties on a lot of their stuff, reflecting gyro stabalizers in their tanks that other countries did not have and the fact their default rifle is a semi auto, better geared for non static fighting)
Japanese are a bit more fearless and like to get into assault

 Azazelx wrote:
So for those who have been playing BA for awhile - how many of the various plastics boxed sets would you need for a reasonable sized force? I'm getting a few to make some forces to play with my mates at home here. I've got a few already, so just looking to "top up" and sort out some forces.

I'm looking making 10 forces using the following kits as the bases - not huge armies, but also medium(?)-sized forces based around at least 2(?) of each box. Similar to what I've been doing with KoW armies and plan to with SAGA warbands, 40k forces (if I ever go back to 40k), etc. A "typical" size for BA kinda thing... Would 3 boxes be better?

US Marines
Japanese
Soviets
British Infantry
British Commandoes
US Infantry
Early Germans (Blitzkrieg)
Mid-Late Germans
Perry DAK
Perry Desert Rats

Also, what about vehicles included in the above? Hanomags? M3 Halftracks? T-34s?

I know I could work out army lists, but I'm not familiar with the rules yet (I have a few books) and am really just looking into picking up some boxes and then going from there based on the figures in hand instead of list building and then buying specifically...

Depending on the army and the amount of points you want to play with, in the case of smaller games a box of plastic infantry and two or three blisters of support stuff (MG teams, mortars and whatnot) should easily suffice. Bigger games, add in another box of infantry, maybe one or two transports and a tank, why not eh?

Also, the Perry boxed sets are excellent 500 pt platoons with support on their own. Just don't give them assault rifles, they didn't have those around that time of the war yet.

Big P wrote:

Tamerath, thank goodness for another 'grumpy git'.
....
Im certainly grumpy as I come out in hives when I see people asking what 'faction' they are 'running' for BA, then call history 'fluff', build lists that are historically as likely as armed Nazi Gorillas (though I would buy them) and call flamethrowers 'flamers'. Its just not my cup of tea.
I wonder if its a generational thing to a degree, but I doubt it. WW2 is a much more personal thing to me. Its a lot more than a movie, a video game or a poor documentary on the history channel. But then I have always been a history nerd, even lectured on Military History and Normandy.
But im glad to see a historical system do well, hopefully some who play it will delve deeper into the history and learn to appreciate that this event was real and respect those who did it for real. A wider awareness of history can only be a good thing and if they learn while playing a fun game, then old gronards can't be too aghast at it.

I thought Warlords recent guide for 40k players put that over well.

And anyway, however you play toy soldiers is up to you, just have fun doing it.

Here's another grumpy git for you. Unfortunately, the tone of your post makes me grumpy with you. There's a bit too much elitism in that section of your post, wrapped up with too much love of "correct" terminology. The various powers in WW2 were indeed factions. And the use of "fluff" is just a term that many people with a 40k background use. You know who else hates that term (when used for 40k?) Jervis. Oh well, bad luck - both of you probably need to get over that one, along with "flamers". gak like that doesn't matter a bit. Or you can be angry at what is essentially nothing for the sake of being angry or bothered. Not respectful enough? /shrug. We're here talking about toy soldiers while there's real, fething nasty wars happening all over the globe instead of trying to do something about it or help the refugees, etc. There are far more important things to get angry about in the world.

A bit about my own background - while I'm sure you know quite a lot more than I do about WW2 and a number of other periods, I've also taught history and my own home has quite a few artifacts of WW2 as my grandfather fought in North Africa, including Tobruk (he lost an eye to a misfire) - so I have his dress uniform, slouch hat, other bits and pieces, as well as quite a few items from the "other faction".

But you know what? WW2 isn't a personal thing to people even 10 years our junior (assuming you're a little older than I am). They have no direct link. It's the same as the first World War to them. They know that the Germans and Japanese were the baddies, and for most of us "our country" was on the side of the good guys. And unless they're actually interested in digging into the fluff, that's all it ever will be.

You should be celebrating the new generation of BA players that are coming across from 40k, and BA for making it accessible and fun - rather than off-puttingly complex or intimidating to new players. Because some of them will become hooked by the history and delve deeper. To some of them an interest in the fluff will become an interest in actual history. If you're more interested in more complex or historically accurate rulesets, that's fine. Prefer Crossfire to Flames of War? No problem. What some of these new players will also find is that there's more than 1 (or 2 with BF) manufactures of WW2 toy cars and toy soldiers, and some will find out that you can use the same toys with more than one ruleset, as well.

Yes... think you basically said the same thing as me then. It will encourage people.

Are we not allowed personal foilbles and petty pointless dislikes anymore due to current affairs?

Bugger, will make the internet boring.

But if you want to rant over my silly and ultimately pointless issues... said tongue in cheek, go for it. I dont mind a bit old fruit.

I will wait for my Nazi gorillas.


As for Tobruk, fairplay... hard fight to be had there, proper soldiering. Mine was at Dunkirk and the other one in Normandy.

 BrookM wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Depending on the army and the amount of points you want to play with, in the case of smaller games a box of plastic infantry and two or three blisters of support stuff (MG teams, mortars and whatnot) should easily suffice. Bigger games, add in another box of infantry, maybe one or two transports and a tank, why not eh?

Also, the Perry boxed sets are excellent 500 pt platoons with support on their own. Just don't give them assault rifles, they didn't have those around that time of the war yet.

The DaK models make some great Gebirgsjager with some minor conversions. Not 100% accurate, but close enough for table top (not to mention a much cheaper way of building out Gebirgsjagers than the metal options).

Big P wrote:
Yes... think you basically said the same thing as me then. It will encourage people.
Are we not allowed personal foilbles and petty pointless dislikes anymore due to current affairs?
Bugger, will make the internet boring.
But if you want to rant over my silly and ultimately pointless issues... said tongue in cheek, go for it. I dont mind a bit old fruit.
I will wait for my Nazi gorillas.
As for Tobruk, fairplay... hard fight to be had there, proper soldiering. Mine was at Dunkirk and the other one in Normandy.

Well, it was his experience. I didn't even exist yet, so no credit to me for what he went through. I have to say that I didn't realise you were being tongue in cheek, and so my response to you was taking your post at face value. I thought you were being a dick rather than having a laugh, so I apologise for that.

As for Nazi gorillas, DUST can help you out there. I've got some half painted on my desk right now, in fact. OK, they've been in that state taking up space for 6 months or more now, but that's how my paint desk rolls...

 Azazelx wrote:
So for those who have been playing BA for awhile - how many of the various plastics boxed sets would you need for a reasonable sized force? I'm getting a few to make some forces to play with my mates at home here. I've got a few already, so just looking to "top up" and sort out some forces.

I'm looking making 10 forces using the following kits as the bases - not huge armies, but also medium(?)-sized forces based around at least 2(?) of each box. Similar to what I've been doing with KoW armies and plan to with SAGA warbands, 40k forces (if I ever go back to 40k), etc. A "typical" size for BA kinda thing... Would 3 boxes be better?

US Marines
Japanese
Soviets
British Infantry
British Commandoes
US Infantry
Early Germans (Blitzkrieg)
Mid-Late Germans
Perry DAK
Perry Desert Rats

Also, what about vehicles included in the above? Hanomags? M3 Halftracks? T-34s?

I know I could work out army lists, but I'm not familiar with the rules yet (I have a few books) and am really just looking into picking up some boxes and then going from there based on the figures in hand instead of list building and then buying specifically...

I basically bought an infantry box set for each nation. It gave me enough for 400 points. This is enough for a decent starter game. I bought some cheap 1/48 tanks to spice things up, only $20 for 2.

 MadMaverick76 wrote:
. I bought some cheap 1/48 tanks to spice things up, only $20 for 2.

Where Might I find these 10dollar tanks?

These require a hard priming in black followed by appropriate paint job but they are nothing more than WW2 tanks with crazy/sci-fi factory paintjobs.

Ebay links shown just for example pics and price range.
Hobby Lobby/Michaels carry these/can get them for you for $10-$15.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xrevell+snap+tite+panzer&_nkw=revell+snap+tite+panzer&_sacat=0

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=revell+snap+tite+panzer&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR2.TRC1.A0.H0.Xrevell+snap+tite+sherman&_nkw=revell+snap+tite+sherman&_sacat=0

privateer4hire wrote:
These require a hard priming in black followed by appropriate paint job but they are nothing more than WW2 tanks with crazy/sci-fi factory paintjobs.

Ebay links shown just for example pics and price range.
Hobby Lobby/Michaels carry these/can get them for you for $10-$15.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xrevell+snap+tite+panzer&_nkw=revell+snap+tite+panzer&_sacat=0

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=revell+snap+tite+panzer&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR2.TRC1.A0.H0.Xrevell+snap+tite+sherman&_nkw=revell+snap+tite+sherman&_sacat=0

They are great size wise and easy to assemble and paint. I just wish they had a Russian tank.

Also a Grumpy Git.... but I won't complain about getting people to open their eyes to the bigger world of Wargaming. Warlord has made a good living/business model for making Historicals much more accessible.

I see WW2 miniature gaming as being not that different than making a WW2 movie. There will be different people in the audience satisfied with different elements to different degrees. For some, the general uniform styles and colours and the right sort of look to the vehicles will be all that is required to transport them there. For others, getting details wrong will shatter the illusion rather quickly.

Bolt Action is a fun game, but it's more loosey goosey than many other WW2 games out there. If it's audience (you and the people you play with) are satisfied by it and find it transports you where you want to go, you'll enjoy it. I still trot it out every now, but my current go-to rules set for a platoon-plus is Chain of Command.

If someone were to say to me "I'm thinking of getting into Bolt Action" I'd say "Awesome! Let me know when you want to get a game in."

 frozenwastes wrote:
I see WW2 miniature gaming as being not that different than making a WW2 movie. There will be different people in the audience satisfied with different elements to different degrees. For some, the general uniform styles and colours and the right sort of look to the vehicles will be all that is required to transport them there. For others, getting details wrong will shatter the illusion rather quickly.

Bolt Action is a fun game, but it's more loosey goosey than many other WW2 games out there. If it's audience (you and the people you play with) are satisfied by it and find it transports you where you want to go, you'll enjoy it. I still trot it out every now, but my current go-to rules set for a platoon-plus is Chain of Command.

If someone were to say to me "I'm thinking of getting into Bolt Action" I'd say "Awesome! Let me know when you want to get a game in."

Precisely!

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 BrookM wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Depending on the army and the amount of points you want to play with, in the case of smaller games a box of plastic infantry and two or three blisters of support stuff (MG teams, mortars and whatnot) should easily suffice. Bigger games, add in another box of infantry, maybe one or two transports and a tank, why not eh?

Also, the Perry boxed sets are excellent 500 pt platoons with support on their own. Just don't give them assault rifles, they didn't have those around that time of the war yet.

The DaK models make some great Gebirgsjager with some minor conversions. Not 100% accurate, but close enough for table top (not to mention a much cheaper way of building out Gebirgsjagers than the metal options).

Not any more than the standard Heer infantry box would. DAK models lack a lot of the GJR's signature equipment like their boots+puttees, their large backpack and hat. GJR also didn't typically wear Y-straps as their backpack would take care of hoisting their belts. Same with A-frame webbing, actually.

They do make for okay Gebirgsjager during their North Afrika deployment, though.

Not overly impressed with BA, its a good game but not in the same class as Black Powder or Pike & Shotte, very obviously aimed at 40k players.

That said its not bad, it is even more "the game of the film" than Flame of war though.

If you are a flames player you almost certainly will have enough spare models to play this for free in 15mm, and if not you could probably set up a good sized BA army in 15mm for about twenty quid using FoW models and something suitable to base them on (pennies or tiddly winks)

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 BrookM wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Depending on the army and the amount of points you want to play with, in the case of smaller games a box of plastic infantry and two or three blisters of support stuff (MG teams, mortars and whatnot) should easily suffice. Bigger games, add in another box of infantry, maybe one or two transports and a tank, why not eh?

Also, the Perry boxed sets are excellent 500 pt platoons with support on their own. Just don't give them assault rifles, they didn't have those around that time of the war yet.

The DaK models make some great Gebirgsjager with some minor conversions. Not 100% accurate, but close enough for table top (not to mention a much cheaper way of building out Gebirgsjagers than the metal options).

Not any more than the standard Heer infantry box would. DAK models lack a lot of the GJR's signature equipment like their boots+puttees, their large backpack and hat. GJR also didn't typically wear Y-straps as their backpack would take care of hoisting their belts. Same with A-frame webbing, actually.

They do make for okay Gebirgsjager during their North Afrika deployment, though.

The hats are similar, and the boots/puttees are easy enough to convert. I didn't say straight out of the box, but with a little effort they can work alright (then again, my idea of little effort may be radically different than some).

Big P wrote:

Im yet to find a good, fun skirmish WW2 game that is reasonably accurate in abstracting a degree of historical accuracy, rewards hisyorical tactical play and doesnt reward cheesey ahistorical list building. Its why I tend to play at the next level up...

Have you ever tried Nuts!?