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They are cheaper now. so you can take more.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Did they really make the Dreadknight better? Why on earth would they do that?

Because Riptides and Wraithknights were still better

Eh, I don't think so? The Dreadknight is just better in melee than the others. What did they even do to make it better? I'm no a GK player, I'm just curious.

Massive point reductions, some weapon changes (Heavy Psycannon has two firing modes, Gatling Psilencer has instant death)

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
The problem with keeping to old rules is the death spiral it creates. You get very few new players coming to a group because they have no access to the rules (OOP codex/rulebook) so you're stuck with your existing group. Any losses to that group dwindles it beyond repair. It won't go anywhere but down.

It happened to my 20+ regular group in college with the advent of 3rd ed.

Basically what happened to me as well. It's cool and all to form your own group and stick to what you like but when people start dropping out... well... only so many times I can enjoy fighting nids primarily with a sprinkling of guardsman and even rarer tau and only those.

On the other hand the sword no longer ludicrously makes guns better.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Did they really make the Dreadknight better? Why on earth would they do that?

Because Riptides and Wraithknights were still better

Eh, I don't think so? The Dreadknight is just better in melee than the others. What did they even do to make it better? I'm no a GK player, I'm just curious.

Massive point reductions, some weapon changes (Heavy Psycannon has two firing modes, Gatling Psilencer has instant death)

still don't see why they needed to make it cheaper...

They were fairly overcosted with upgrades compared to similar units.

Make It Cheaper Is GWs brand of power creep. Each successive codex has better units than the last to keep the cycle going.

Actually that's some "stand alone balance" at work.

When a GK force could liturally spend nothing at HQs by taking a simple inquis, they could not afford to bring down knight price to what it is today because he would be too easy to splash into other armies.
With current codex forcing you to at least take a moderately powerful HQ rather than the cheapest in the game, they can afford to having the knight cheaper as a cornerstone you are expected to be using, without fearing the results of splashing it in other armies too much.

One of the few cases GW actually made a good call. in a true "GK" army, knights are nothing out-of-the-ordinary, as you are going to be hard pressed at points anyway and will be feeling the pain of low model count. unlike "GKquisition" codex they used to have, that could have cheap as hell HQ and troops and then max out on the heavy duty tools.

Even with the cheaper DK, within context-they are not any more powerful.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I quit when 7th edition was announced, along with about half the players at my FLGS. We now have 2nd edition nights and 4th edition nights for people who still want to play, and the FLGS is now selling other games which people are starting to get into.

This is the silliest thing I can think of.
During 2nd Edition D&D when 3rd Edition was announce "Hey we are working on 3rd edition" in a article in the beginning of the book 2 years before it was released we have 3 members of out group "Rage Quit".
The same thing in 3rd when 4th was announced the same way we had 2-3 people "Rage Quit".

Why would you quit a game you have never even seen the rules for?"

 Anpu42 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I quit when 7th edition was announced, along with about half the players at my FLGS. We now have 2nd edition nights and 4th edition nights for people who still want to play, and the FLGS is now selling other games which people are starting to get into.

This is the silliest thing I can think of.
During 2nd Edition D&D when 3rd Edition was announce "Hey we are working on 3rd edition" in a article in the beginning of the book 2 years before it was released we have 3 members of out group "Rage Quit".
The same thing in 3rd when 4th was announced the same way we had 2-3 people "Rage Quit".

Why would you quit a game you have never even seen the rules for?"

Because gamers are an irrational lot.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I quit when 7th edition was announced, along with about half the players at my FLGS. We now have 2nd edition nights and 4th edition nights for people who still want to play, and the FLGS is now selling other games which people are starting to get into.

This is the silliest thing I can think of.
During 2nd Edition D&D when 3rd Edition was announce "Hey we are working on 3rd edition" in a article in the beginning of the book 2 years before it was released we have 3 members of out group "Rage Quit".
The same thing in 3rd when 4th was announced the same way we had 2-3 people "Rage Quit".

Why would you quit a game you have never even seen the rules for?"

When 7th was announced 2 years early *just* in time for their end of financial year report it was clear that the new edition would be a clusterfeth. This has been borne out in reality as for many people there are many ridiculous things in 7th in addition to not enough fixes. I don't recall much pushback against DnD 3rd (my favourite after playing 1-4), but a huge pushback against 4th when it was clear they were trying to turn it into WoW - 4th ed DnD has been horrible for the brand, just as 6th and 7th has been for 40k. WotC however actually know what they're doing and can turn it around in the upcoming 5th - what they did in 4th they did well, it's just that it's not what we wanted.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Because gamers are an irrational lot.

Some people can add 2+2 mentally without requiring pen, paper and calculator.

Don't understand why anyone is complaining about the new dex if they want to do a combined army. Now that you can take multiple CAD at any point value the problem is easily avoided. Honestly think anyone who thinks they can get away with playing with the Old book may have issues just because there is an updated version out.

 Yonan wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I quit when 7th edition was announced, along with about half the players at my FLGS. We now have 2nd edition nights and 4th edition nights for people who still want to play, and the FLGS is now selling other games which people are starting to get into.

This is the silliest thing I can think of.
During 2nd Edition D&D when 3rd Edition was announce "Hey we are working on 3rd edition" in a article in the beginning of the book 2 years before it was released we have 3 members of out group "Rage Quit".
The same thing in 3rd when 4th was announced the same way we had 2-3 people "Rage Quit".

Why would you quit a game you have never even seen the rules for?"

When 7th was announced 2 years early *just* in time for their end of financial year report it was clear that the new edition would be a clusterfeth. This has been borne out in reality as for many people there are many ridiculous things in 7th in addition to not enough fixes. I don't recall much pushback against DnD 3rd (my favourite after playing 1-4), but a huge pushback against 4th when it was clear they were trying to turn it into WoW - 4th ed DnD has been horrible for the brand, just as 6th and 7th has been for 40k. WotC however actually know what they're doing and can turn it around in the upcoming 5th - what they did in 4th they did well, it's just that it's not what we wanted.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Because gamers are an irrational lot.

Some people can add 2+2 mentally without requiring pen, paper and calculator.

So there was no interest in the rules other than there will be changes that might or might not make the game better, just the fact they were basing it on current edition with tweaks?

 gmaleron wrote:
Don't understand why anyone is complaining about the new dex if they want to do a combined army.

Then you didn't read the thread. Reading the thread helps if you want to know what peoples issues are. To re-iterate: 15 of the 38 units were removed from the codex, minimal changes were applied to the extent that you can write them in on your old codex with 5 minutes work, and it now costs more. If you want the same content you have to buy 3 expensive books for virtually no improvement.

 Anpu42 wrote:
So there was no interest in the rules other than there will be changes that might or might not make the game better, just the fact they were basing it on current edition with tweaks?

Not sure what you're getting at sorry.

I wonder if they replaced the artwork with more miniature pictures.

 Yonan wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Don't understand why anyone is complaining about the new dex if they want to do a combined army.

Then you didn't read the thread. Reading the thread helps if you want to know what peoples issues are. To re-iterate: 15 of the 38 units were removed from the codex, minimal changes were applied to the extent that you can write them in on your old codex with 5 minutes work, and it now costs more. If you want the same content you have to buy 3 expensive books for virtually no improvement.

Funny, that poll at the top of the thread seems to indicate over 3 times as many people will use the new Dex instead of the old one.

 Yonan wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
So there was no interest in the rules other than there will be changes that might or might not make the game better, just the fact they were basing it on current edition with tweaks?

Not sure what you're getting at sorry.

Ok lets try this
A lot of people thought 6th was bad [I am not one of those] and then GW announces 7th which is based on 6th with some fixes [or 6.5].
So people who were unhappy Quit because they did not scrap 6th.

Or at least that is how I read it.

For me it's an obvious money grab. Both the 7th update and recent codices.

The GK release is even more so because:

1.No new models released
2. Rise in price
3. Substantially fewer units (with nothing added)
4. Elements removed from the codex are available for extra as a download.

Talk about pissing in your customers faces.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Don't understand why anyone is complaining about the new dex if they want to do a combined army.

Then you didn't read the thread. Reading the thread helps if you want to know what peoples issues are. To re-iterate: 15 of the 38 units were removed from the codex, minimal changes were applied to the extent that you can write them in on your old codex with 5 minutes work, and it now costs more. If you want the same content you have to buy 3 expensive books for virtually no improvement.

Funny, that poll at the top of the thread seems to indicate over 3 times as many people will use the new Dex instead of the old one.

What? How is that relevant to the people who will be using the older one? You said you didn't know why people were using the older one, and justify it as "well most people will use the new one"?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
So there was no interest in the rules other than there will be changes that might or might not make the game better, just the fact they were basing it on current edition with tweaks?

Not sure what you're getting at sorry.

Ok lets try this
A lot of people thought 6th was bad [I am not one of those] and then GW announces 7th which is based on 6th with some fixes [or 6.5].
So people who were unhappy Quit because they did not scrap 6th.

Or at least that is how I read it.

Ahh k, gotcha. That's part of it - 6th changed the direction greatly from 5th as I understand it (i rocked up tail of 5th) and as that recent poll shows, 5th is peoples favourite edition followed closely by 4th, with 6th being the least favourite. There were a few main things though - the kneejerk release to prop the years numbers being evidence of a poorly thought out product with minimal content (to push profits), the introduction of unbound which is throwing away any attempt at balance (to push profits), fluff destroying stuff like SM summoning daemons to sell more models (to push profits) and lastly not fixing many of the problems in 6th (because incompetence). For me it drove home how GW doesn't improve their product much (when it could od with a *lot* of improving), they just move it sideways and charge you an arm and a leg for it.

 Yonan wrote:

Ahh k, gotcha. That's part of it - 6th changed the direction greatly from 5th as I understand it (i rocked up tail of 5th) and as that recent poll shows, 5th is peoples favourite edition followed closely by 4th, with 6th being the least favourite. There were a few main things though - the kneejerk release to prop the years numbers (ie. push profits), the introduction of unbound which is throwing away any attempt at balance (to push profits), fluff destroying stuff like SM summoning daemons to sell more models (to push profits) and lastly not fixing many of the problems in 6th (because incompetence). For me it drove home how GW doesn't improve their product much (when it could od with a *lot* of improving), they just move it sideways and charge you an arm and a leg for it.

That I understand

What I am trying to understand was one who stated that they quit when it was announced.
Again how I understand the statement:
GW: We are announcing 7th Edition!
40k Players: We Quit!
GW: ?? But we have not told you anything
40k Players: We Still Quit!

This is how my D&D Group reacted both times. My new group at least joined the Beta Play Testers and played it before we decided we did not like it.

It's been too long since 3rd was launched for me to remember it clearly - all I remember is we were excited about 3rd but 4th turned us right off when we had info about each. 7th ed we knew it was being released two years early in time for the end of financial year report - a huge sign it was going to be bad. At that stage we (I) were already expecting it to be bad which was quite reasonable imo. When we heard about unbound, maelstrom and what not it was the final straw - we didn't need to play it to know the impact they'd have on gameplay. This was later borne out by people who did play it and found the impact was as expected.

Yes some people can be unreasonable. Treat those individuals with the disdain they deserve, but don't lump us all together ; p A lot of us have been playing games for many years and can judge the impact of rules on gameplay pretty damn well now without needing to play it.

 Yonan wrote:
It's been too long since 3rd was launched for me to remember it clearly - all I remember is we were excited about 3rd but 4th turned us right off when we had info about each. 7th ed we knew it was being released two years early in time for the end of financial year report - a huge sign it was going to be bad. At that stage we (I) were already expecting it to be bad which was quite reasonable imo. When we heard about unbound, maelstrom and what not it was the final straw - we didn't need to play it to know the impact they'd have on gameplay. This was later borne out by people who did play it and found the impact was as expected.

That is different, you at least researched first.

And to be honest 7th is not as bad as everyone says it is in my opinion.

I can see why people like the effect on gameplay of the maelstrom of war, but the "random" nature completely kills it for a lot of us. Ignoring maelstrom, unbound, psychic phase, overall 7th is a somewhat refined 6th which is good, but even that isn't as good as it should be for a new edition and as mentioned earlier, 6th went in a different direction from 5th that many do not like. Whilst it's a similar situation with the GK codex, that's probably another thread and has been done to death already ; p

 Anpu42 wrote:

And to be honest 7th is not as bad as everyone says it is in my opinion.

Honestly, 7th edition seems leaps and bounds better than 6th. I was bittervet about 7th so soon already, but I was so sick of 6th that I was ready to quit in the middle of it. 7th makes me actually interested to play again. It's actually getting close to my level of interest with 5th.

In an attempt to get back on topic:

I am going to be playing with the now one, I can now field my full army in 2k games.

Where is the option for both?

Yes, I'll get the gk codex. At the same time in keeping the old one for the assassin stuff.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Enforcing purchase of the new 'dex on players when it's basically GK 5.1 lite only rewards GWs bad business practices. When GW pulls stunts like this - cutting 15 of the 38 units form a codex and selling them separately, then selling the new book at a higher price still - you really should push back imo.

The way to fight against GW's business practices is to stop buying their products.

I quit when 7th edition was announced, along with about half the players at my FLGS. We now have 2nd edition nights and 4th edition nights for people who still want to play, and the FLGS is now selling other games which people are starting to get into.

I'm just going to call you a liar on this. I doubt half. Unless you play in Piedmont ND and both you and the other dude quit. So I'm going to ask you to prove it. Prove half. I read this crap all the.time. Half this, no one this, its over that, yet I have zero issue getting games. Maybe your just a jerk and people hate you. Just throwing out ideas. I mean if we are making crap up I might as well to.

 lobbywatson wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Enforcing purchase of the new 'dex on players when it's basically GK 5.1 lite only rewards GWs bad business practices. When GW pulls stunts like this - cutting 15 of the 38 units form a codex and selling them separately, then selling the new book at a higher price still - you really should push back imo.

The way to fight against GW's business practices is to stop buying their products.

I quit when 7th edition was announced, along with about half the players at my FLGS. We now have 2nd edition nights and 4th edition nights for people who still want to play, and the FLGS is now selling other games which people are starting to get into.

I'm just going to call you a liar on this. I doubt half. Unless you play in Piedmont ND and both you and the other dude quit. So I'm going to ask you to prove it. Prove half. I read this crap all the.time. Half this, no one this, its over that, yet I have zero issue getting games. Maybe your just a jerk and people hate you. Just throwing out ideas. I mean if we are making crap up I might as well to.

Yeah, you *do* read that a lot, meaning a lot of people are saying it. Coincidentally GW is selling a lot less, but that's probably entirely unrelated hey?

Even though I don't play GK, a player in our group does. So I shall be getting the newer codex when he does. I like knowing what my enemy does.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

Ahh k, gotcha. That's part of it - 6th changed the direction greatly from 5th as I understand it (i rocked up tail of 5th) and as that recent poll shows, 5th is peoples favourite edition followed closely by 4th, with 6th being the least favourite. There were a few main things though - the kneejerk release to prop the years numbers (ie. push profits), the introduction of unbound which is throwing away any attempt at balance (to push profits), fluff destroying stuff like SM summoning daemons to sell more models (to push profits) and lastly not fixing many of the problems in 6th (because incompetence). For me it drove home how GW doesn't improve their product much (when it could od with a *lot* of improving), they just move it sideways and charge you an arm and a leg for it.

That I understand

What I am trying to understand was one who stated that they quit when it was announced.
Again how I understand the statement:
GW: We are announcing 7th Edition!
40k Players: We Quit!
GW: ?? But we have not told you anything
40k Players: We Still Quit!
.

For many, myself included, the rules are a non-issue: 6th is fine from that perspective, and while don't like the new psychic phase as a concept, I imagine 7th is fine. But when the changes can literally be summed up on a side of A4, and the fluff is mostly recycled, why should I pay £50 to invalidate what I bought for £45 two years ago?