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 Anpu42 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
...Our local ork and tyranid players are still using their old codices and so will most likely the GK. I just don't see much motivation to spend a lot of money on a book that is so, well, unnecessary. What does the new codex bring that the old one lacked and that is worth the price? We are starting to have difficulties seeing the value.

For the most part the Grey Knight units have gotten better and/or cheaper.

To a lot of people, I'm not sure that matters. They're still perfectly playable with the old book, I don't feel entitled to a power rise with a new book (actually, I think this sense of entitlement is why so many complained about every codex since Eldar) and so cost changes don't bother me and I'd rather have more less powerful options than fewer better ones.

 Mywik wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

They already could hang out with any army as is thanks to allies rules. Ally GKs, take an inquisitor... easy.

Except you couldn't just have Inquisitors and their teams as the only HQ's were Special Characters and GK =- at least now you can have your own/ generic Inquisitors without having to drag along Grey Knights every time.........

If as has been suggested they had done Inquisition Codex with the two Chambers Militant (Grey Knights and Death Watch) that would have been awesome but only if you could take Inquisitors and their teams without the marines........

Not true. Of course there were generic inquisitors in the old gk book. Did you even read it?

Edit:
Okay henchmen were only troops with coteaz. You are correct. Im dumb.

Yeah my point was to even take a generic Inquisitor you had to take either SC Inquisitor or Grey Knight HQ......

 Ashiraya wrote:
I still feel balance changes should be 'patched' (such as via errata, or ideally just more pre-release playtesting) and new codices would only be warranted when there's new fluff, art, and units coming.

This would be excellent for the game.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yeah my point was to even take a generic Inquisitor you had to take either SC Inquisitor or Grey Knight HQ......

So the best option was to split one book in three rather than adding a single line to the GK FAQ saying "0-2 henchmen units are now troops when taken with any inquisitor, Coteaz can still take 6."? I know which option I think is a lot better for players.

"Patching" would be good for the game, in theory. but will quickly get annoying when you need to go look for the "patches" every time you get a book, then compare side to side the patches and the text.

Sure, its easy for the veteran, but the new guy? he's get a headache. just give him a book with all the "patches" in it, the veteran will manage without getting that book right away with making himself a list of changes, and eventually getting the book when bothered to, or when enough patches (or new stuff he wants to use) are in it.
You dont HAVE to buy a new codex every time one comes out in order to play the newest codex.


As for the inqusition thing, it WAS a separate codex in the past, it got rolled into GK for no good reason (along with assassins who were also separate) and now the natural order is restored. I still fail to see the problem.
Sure, it was nice for someone who plays GK+inq+ass to have them all in one book, but it would have annoying that you need an entire GK book to have a random inqusitor if that line was written, and if assassin had a "can be taken as a slot-less unit in any imperial army" it really would have had nothing to do with the codex any more, would it?
Its HEALTHY for the game to separate them. slightly annoying for the GK+inq+ass players, but for the game as a whole that's a good thing.

No, I'll continue not playing. Easy!

 BoomWolf wrote:

As for the inqusition thing, it WAS a separate codex in the past, it got rolled into GK for no good reason (along with assassins who were also separate) and now the natural order is restored. I still fail to see the problem.
Sure, it was nice for someone who plays GK+inq+ass to have them all in one book, but it would have annoying that you need an entire GK book to have a random inqusitor if that line was written, and if assassin had a "can be taken as a slot-less unit in any imperial army" it really would have had nothing to do with the codex any more, would it?
Its HEALTHY for the game to separate them. slightly annoying for the GK+inq+ass players, but for the game as a whole that's a good thing.

The past is the past. The cats out of the bag... you already gave people those three baked together in one book for $33. Trying to even pronounce an iota of support for such a decision now, based on "it's good for the game" is as apologetic as one can get. As stated by multiple folks, if you think it's good they're separate, you could have kept GKs exactly the same, released Codex Inquisition (which isn't a codex anymore, yay!) and Splatbook Assassins and called it day. It also bones people over in the very common "two source" meta that we currently exist in because of the immense fear (warranted or otherwise) over letting it all go because of the terrible boned up job allies is.

It's a business thing... once it's been perceived at one cost (or free), it's very hard to justify the new cost (or any in the case of free) if the price goes up. And the price has nearly tripled for what you go the last time for less content.

I remember a day when you just played one army and it was awesome. They each had positive and negatives and you could at least play off them instead of a patchwork of Imperium and then Xenos. (Who plays Chaos anymore, AMIRITE? /s)

I'd love for a big book of Inquisition; pick your Ordo and you get access to Sisters, GK, or DW, all from the comforts of a single book.

I'm still fairly surprised there are people thinking that cutting content and charging more is a positive move. I'd buy that perspective if the new GK book was $20, and the other stuff was ~$5-10.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'd love for a big book of Inquisition; pick your Ordo and you get access to Sisters, GK, or DW, all from the comforts of a single book.

I'm still fairly surprised there are people thinking that cutting content and charging more is a positive move. I'd buy that perspective if the new GK book was $20, and the other stuff was ~$5-10.

At this point, that would be a book worth $50. And if you took a Hereticus + Maleus, you got Sisters + GK. Plus, they could finally then make a single Deathwatch unit and call it a day. Make the "Force of the Imperium" book or w/e generic term for lumping in the cats and dogs together.

That would actually excite me. As it stands, to make such a book, you'd be out:

GK ($50)
Inq ($25)
Assassins ($20)
Sisters ($25)
Guard/Storm Troopers ($50)
Deathwatch (if it existed) ($20)

About $190 worth of rules to play something that should be one book by now. Then just add a few lines about taking them in the armies of the Imperium and Bob's your uncle. Oh wait, then that would be Codex Daemon Hunters and Codex Witchhunters in one book (which was about $60 in total). Oh, no!

The way I see it, its not like Sisters or GK have all that many units; even more so when you consider the different units are slight wargear swaps, and therefore require very little in the way of page count (see other marine books, where all PA units are shown on one page in the fluff sections). Deathwatch, even fleshed out more, would have a fraction of the units that GK/Sisters have. Plus, you could have a lot of fun, fluffy option for DW in a small amount of space (choosing the squad leader, adding specialists, cool wargear).

Then you have the Inq units that are 'neutral'. These units are available to all the Ordos, with some exceptions in wargear choices and Inq loadouts.

The book would have more units than the vanilla marine book, but not that much more. It'd certainly give Sisters more love than they're currently getting, but maybe not as much as some would like. As a personal taste, I also think it puts GK into the style they should be; a great allied force that can still be taken solo.

But yeah, needless to say cutting content, and asking more money doesn't gel with me. A combined Inq book would actually be worth a theoretical ~$50 price tag.

 BoomWolf wrote:
"Patching" would be good for the game, in theory. but will quickly get annoying when you need to go look for the "patches" every time you get a book, then compare side to side the patches and the text.

If the game was properly designed, a lot of patches would not be needed. The game's colossal buy-in price and generally time-consuming design (From modelling to painting to playing...) means that it is difficult to be a truly casual 40K player.

One patch every new edition would be easy enough to manage, especially if local GW stores assisted with informing.

You dont HAVE to buy a new codex every time one comes out in order to play the newest codex.

No, you can pirate it or whatever, but that really is not the point.

 TheKbob wrote:
The past is the past. The cats out of the bag... you already gave people those three baked together in one book for $33. Trying to even pronounce an iota of support for such a decision now, based on "it's good for the game" is as apologetic as one can get. As stated by multiple folks, if you think it's good they're separate, you could have kept GKs exactly the same, released Codex Inquisition (which isn't a codex anymore, yay!) and Splatbook Assassins and called it day. It also bones people over in the very common "two source" meta that we currently exist in because of the immense fear (warranted or otherwise) over letting it all go because of the terrible boned up job allies is.

The "two sources meta" is a problem created BY the players. 7th does not feature such rules, and is obviously not intended for it, its designed, at its heart, to follow the path of expansion, and splitting up factions to sub-factions who can and will join forces when the time is right.
And if we are lucky, soon enough the "cult marines" will be chopped off the CSM book, in favor of all-new cult ARMIES, who will, like IoM function by that you mix and match your subfactions to join forces in one bigger army (so you got "undevided" core, general demons, dedication to slannash/khorne/tzeench/nurgle, and maybe later throw in small factions from time to time like renegade guards, followers of mallal, etc...)

 TheKbob wrote:
It's a business thing... once it's been perceived at one cost (or free), it's very hard to justify the new cost (or any in the case of free) if the price goes up. And the price has nearly tripled for what you go the last time for less content.

I am backing up the splitting decision-not how its priced. the price is a whole other issue and I honestly thing GW would have done themselves a favor if they charged alot less for the books, even profitless prices, as it will result in higher traffic, and by such more model buys. but that's a whole other question...

 TheKbob wrote:
I remember a day when you just played one army and it was awesome. They each had positive and negatives and you could at least play off them instead of a patchwork of Imperium and then Xenos. (Who plays Chaos anymore, AMIRITE? /s)

As for "played one army and it was awesome", eeem, when? because allied DID exist in the old days, and got phased out.
The "patchwork of imperium" is nice, as they DO cover each other's bases in fluff as well, but do it at a cost (you gotta have a management HQ and some backbone of each force-because they don't quite listen to each other), its pretty cool that way.
Actually, the IoM are perfectly represented on the tabletop as they are and just require to fix up some codices now (BA mostly. SoB and DA a bit too, they others are fine.)
The xenos and chaos require some rework once the "grand IoM" is done, chaos needs a MASSIVE expansion, and preferably with a plit of the different big factions off the main book to their own books (each cult can fill a book of about the size of current GK), and the tau need to actually feature all the small races they have fluff-wise (they have like 7 rule-less races in their standing forces fluffwise), eldar/Deldar cover the remains of that race nicely and just need to broaden up a bit with niech aspects and such, orks and necrons ARE a bit monotone armies, and are wide enough as they are, nothing more than supplements is needed, and nids need some "make your own critter" rules or something to show off thier true versalitiy.
Did I miss anyone?

And if we are lucky, soon enough the "cult marines" will be chopped off the CSM book, in favor of all-new cult ARMIES, who will, like IoM function by that you mix and match your subfactions to join forces in one bigger army (so you got "undevided" core, general demons, dedication to slannash/khorne/tzeench/nurgle, and maybe later throw in small factions from time to time like renegade guards, followers of mallal, etc...)

Considering how hard they've been trying to cut 'undivided' from the fluff, the fact legions don't exist, they barely acknowledge the gods effect on their followers..

I honestly don't have much hope for it all in the end, and even then the 6th edition codex is pretty meh, a few bolsters doesn't help it too much unless it starts changing costs.

Also chopped out of the book? Really? That's the solution!? I'd rather not lose my Noise Marine's in that manner.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'd love for a big book of Inquisition; pick your Ordo and you get access to Sisters, GK, or DW, all from the comforts of a single book.

I'm still fairly surprised there are people thinking that cutting content and charging more is a positive move. I'd buy that perspective if the new GK book was $20, and the other stuff was ~$5-10.

Sisters are not part of the inquisition.

teban wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I'd love for a big book of Inquisition; pick your Ordo and you get access to Sisters, GK, or DW, all from the comforts of a single book.

I'm still fairly surprised there are people thinking that cutting content and charging more is a positive move. I'd buy that perspective if the new GK book was $20, and the other stuff was ~$5-10.

Sisters are not part of the inquisition.

Yes they are.

 Sir Arun wrote:

teban wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I'd love for a big book of Inquisition; pick your Ordo and you get access to Sisters, GK, or DW, all from the comforts of a single book.

I'm still fairly surprised there are people thinking that cutting content and charging more is a positive move. I'd buy that perspective if the new GK book was $20, and the other stuff was ~$5-10.

Sisters are not part of the inquisition.

Yes they are.

No they're not. They're part of the Ecclesiarchy and function as the Chamber Militant for the Ordo Hereticus, but they're not formally under the Inquisition's auspices, just as the Grey Knights are an independent Chapter in their own right.

It would make for a great book if they were included all 3 as sub-sets of the inquisition though and basically solve everyones problems imo. Out of interest, how many pages is the new GK codex? The old one was 96 pages, and iirc the new Space Marine codex is 170. There should be ample room to hold it without it getting too clunky.

Generic inquisitiion
Ordo Malleus > Grey Knights
Ordo Xenos > Deathwatch
Ordo Hereticus > Sisters

I'd buy the feth out of that book... if the basic gamerules weren't a clusterfeth ; p

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

teban wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I'd love for a big book of Inquisition; pick your Ordo and you get access to Sisters, GK, or DW, all from the comforts of a single book.

I'm still fairly surprised there are people thinking that cutting content and charging more is a positive move. I'd buy that perspective if the new GK book was $20, and the other stuff was ~$5-10.

Sisters are not part of the inquisition.

Yes they are.

No they're not. They're part of the Ecclesiarchy and function as the Chamber Militant for the Ordo Hereticus, but they're not formally under the Inquisition's auspices, just as the Grey Knights are an independent Chapter in their own right.

Exactly. They're the Ecclesiarchy's work-around "women at arms"

 Yonan wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I still feel balance changes should be 'patched' (such as via errata, or ideally just more pre-release playtesting) and new codices would only be warranted when there's new fluff, art, and units coming.

This would be excellent for the game.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yeah my point was to even take a generic Inquisitor you had to take either SC Inquisitor or Grey Knight HQ......

So the best option was to split one book in three rather than adding a single line to the GK FAQ saying "0-2 henchmen units are now troops when taken with any inquisitor, Coteaz can still take 6."? I know which option I think is a lot better for players.

no please take the actual time to read my actual post where I suggested a Inquisiton/ Chamber Millitant book -

Always run the most recent codex for my army...

Got it, really like it. Quite a large number f changes, and was a not unexpected correction to the mish mash of the previous codex.

The changes to assassins are more than errata. Most function entirely differently now.

Alright, so what are the changes compared to the old GK dex (+ errata) that you think are better in the new codex?

Apart from cutting henchmen/assassins from the codex and removing the special rules on the force weapons? Just about everything.

And you can cry all you want about how 'so many different units were cut out' but in the end everyone stuck to the same config of henchmen (give or take 2 models) so you can just count that as 1 unit.
Assassins being removed is a bit sad but in the end they are neither GK nor inquisition so I was wondering why they were even in the book to begin with.

Psycannons are arguably nerfed (because I think it's more of a repurpose, leaning towards Purgators), but we got another weapon in return (psilencers barely saw any use).

Apart from that, GK just get more for less in general, with base costs and some upgrades being heavily reduced in price. Some things went up in price (like daemon hammers) but that is quite reasonable if you ask me.

Only MAJOR loss I can think of is psybolt amunition, which is sad, but I think we can manage with all these other tools we've been given.

The only reason people complain is that they 1) can't use their netlists anymore, which is ridiculous and 2) they don't have a 3-in 1 book anymore, which is understandble, but in the end you can build the same army if you REALLY wanted to.

Especially if C:Inquisition becomes a thing, I can only see this as a big + because it allows for flexibility.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Alright, so what are the changes compared to the old GK dex (+ errata) that you think are better in the new codex?

Pricing on PAGK and TAGK is now much more sensible, issue is NFS should do *something*, otherwise 2points for +1S seems a no brainer
PO 'nades make a ton more sense
H Psycannon change
Ranged force - makes opponents think very differently, even if the odds arent amaizng (ID makes people nervous)
Lack of "mind bullets" - psybolt was bollocks, frankly
DK are now worth their points when jumping, as opposed to being overcosted

Overall a more sensible3 layout, the stupid options like rad and psychostroke grenades are gone

You now get encouraged to play actual GK.

I'm partly biased - the changes to the army, even with loss of mordrak (who I dearly miss) mean I now get a redeemer in, for the same points as before and swapping out Mordrak + GK for a libby, level 3 and a unit of termies with incinerator. That now seems like quite a strong force.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Alright, so what are the changes compared to the old GK dex (+ errata) that you think are better in the new codex?

Pricing on PAGK and TAGK is now much more sensible, issue is NFS should do *something*, otherwise 2points for +1S seems a no brainer
PO 'nades make a ton more sense
H Psycannon change
Ranged force - makes opponents think very differently, even if the odds arent amaizng (ID makes people nervous)
Lack of "mind bullets" - psybolt was bollocks, frankly
DK are now worth their points when jumping, as opposed to being overcosted

Overall a more sensible3 layout, the stupid options like rad and psychostroke grenades are gone

You now get encouraged to play actual GK.

I'm partly biased - the changes to the army, even with loss of mordrak (who I dearly miss) mean I now get a redeemer in, for the same points as before and swapping out Mordrak + GK for a libby, level 3 and a unit of termies with incinerator. That now seems like quite a strong force.

^
Everything Above

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Alright, so what are the changes compared to the old GK dex (+ errata) that you think are better in the new codex?

Pricing on PAGK and TAGK is now much more sensible, issue is NFS should do *something*, otherwise 2points for +1S seems a no brainer
PO 'nades make a ton more sense
H Psycannon change
Ranged force - makes opponents think very differently, even if the odds arent amaizng (ID makes people nervous)
Lack of "mind bullets" - psybolt was bollocks, frankly
DK are now worth their points when jumping, as opposed to being overcosted

Overall a more sensible3 layout, the stupid options like rad and psychostroke grenades are gone

You now get encouraged to play actual GK.

I'm partly biased - the changes to the army, even with loss of mordrak (who I dearly miss) mean I now get a redeemer in, for the same points as before and swapping out Mordrak + GK for a libby, level 3 and a unit of termies with incinerator. That now seems like quite a strong force.

the changes you mentioned are literally something nobody even asked for.

Okay, armywide psybolt was indeed stupid, but at least NFW in the old codex were competitive. Now, halberds are an auto-take with the occasional hammer thrown in for that AP2. Rad and psychotroke nades were fun, and bordering on cheap for their points cost, but not overpriced. Brain mines will be missed, too. The NDK teleporter is too cheap now...almost no reason to take a knight without one. And 33 pt terminators? really? Whats the reasoning behind that other than "the codex kinda sucks now that we took away so much stuff, so lets at least give them this cookie to make them happy"

Compare the GK termie squad to a vanilla SM termie squad - the asscannon and psycannon are virtually identical, with the psycannon actually being better due to +1S on those 4 rending shots at same range. Vanilla marines pay out of the nose for the asscannon (20 points) while GKs also pay same. In the old dex they paid 5 points more to reflect the +1S. Gk termies also have a bunch of special rules like the aegis, preferred enemy chaos daemons etc. and are also psykers, which is more than the equivalent of slapped on chapter tactics for the vanilla marines, so that's also taken care of. The only difference remaining is the swapping of a powerfist with a lower strength, higher AP weapon like the sword or halberd. Again, in the old codex all 3 were same points cost (free) except the falchions, so you could decide between 4+ inv in cc, +2 I, AP2 T4 insta-kill, or pay 5 more points and get 1 more attack instead of any of these bonuses, given how termies dont have nades to charge into cover and thus their halberd extra I usually gets invalidated, and hammers might be too slow for some players. You also had the warding stave which you could give to characters and thus make them a real badass in duels (worth that points cost). In the new dex people will be busy clipping them off their models if they had assembled them before.

Ranged force is just about the only good thing to come out of the new dex.

bottom line: the new dex is a real buzzkill. Especially if you collect an SM army already, GK as an additional army lost a lot of their unique flavor and appeal.

Sir Arun wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Alright, so what are the changes compared to the old GK dex (+ errata) that you think are better in the new codex?

Pricing on PAGK and TAGK is now much more sensible, issue is NFS should do *something*, otherwise 2points for +1S seems a no brainer
PO 'nades make a ton more sense
H Psycannon change
Ranged force - makes opponents think very differently, even if the odds arent amaizng (ID makes people nervous)
Lack of "mind bullets" - psybolt was bollocks, frankly
DK are now worth their points when jumping, as opposed to being overcosted

Overall a more sensible3 layout, the stupid options like rad and psychostroke grenades are gone

You now get encouraged to play actual GK.

I'm partly biased - the changes to the army, even with loss of mordrak (who I dearly miss) mean I now get a redeemer in, for the same points as before and swapping out Mordrak + GK for a libby, level 3 and a unit of termies with incinerator. That now seems like quite a strong force.

the changes you mentioned are literally something nobody even asked for.

Really? "literally"? Or do you not mean "I didnt ask for them"?

Sir Arun wrote:Okay, armywide psybolt was indeed stupid, but at least NFW in the old codex were competitive. Now, halberds are an auto-take with the occasional hammer thrown in for that AP2.

Swords were garbage, as termies die to shooting, not CC. Everyone then, as now, takes Halberds and hammers. You still wont take Falchions, same as before.

Sir Arun wrote:Rad and psychotroke nades were fun, and bordering on cheap for their points cost, but not overpriced. Brain mines will be missed, too.

NO, they were underpriced. Especially the strokes, and were incredibly unfun to boot. Yay, ID T4 becoming so so much easier with hammer plus might, all at I6. Or "on a roll of a 2 lose the fight" strokes, which sucked for opponents. Brain mines werent bad, but still another clunky mechanic.

Sir Arun wrote:The NDK teleporter is too cheap now...almost no reason to take a knight without one.

Those points add up quickly. And if you want T1 DS, you only get two HS, and some squads really benefit from LR transports...

Sir Arun wrote:And 33 pt terminators? really? Whats the reasoning behind that other than "the codex kinda sucks now that we took away so much stuff, so lets at least give them this cookie to make them happy"

Lol. No, seriously. Lol. 30points is the new standard, for power weapon TEQ. 33 points gets you acute senses, CA and ATSKNF (SW) or ATSNKF, PML1 and a NFS so no cheap high strength without relying on a psychic power.

Its because, then as now, termies die to shooting, as AP2 / 1 is far, far too common. Its more common than strictly AP3 only long range shooting!

Sir Arun wrote:Compare the GK termie squad to a vanilla SM termie squad - the asscannon and psycannon are virtually identical, with the psycannon actually being better due to +1S on those 4 rending shots at same range. Vanilla marines pay out of the nose for the asscannon (20 points) while GKs also pay same. In the old dex they paid 5 points more to reflect the +1S.

20 points isnt "out of the nose" for an assault cannon.

Sir Arun wrote:Gk termies also have a bunch of special rules like the aegis, preferred enemy chaos daemons etc. and are also psykers, which is more than the equivalent of slapped on chapter tactics for the vanilla marines, so that's also taken care of. The only difference remaining is the swapping of a powerfist with a lower strength, higher AP weapon like the sword or halberd.

Yikes, so a powerfist is worth the same as a S: user AP3 NFW? Not in a million years.

Sir Arun wrote:Again, in the old codex all 3 were same points cost (free) except the falchions, so you could decide between 4+ inv in cc, +2 I, AP2 T4 insta-kill, or pay 5 more points and get 1 more attack instead of any of these bonuses,

Yes, but in reality people went for halberds and hammers, as killing opponents (I6) is better than being better at defending against htose should-be-dead-by-now opponents. And it meant, with the change to PW in 6th - remember that? When You went from effectively AP2 on all to AP3 on swords and halberds? - that suddenly PW were OVERcosted, as they couldnt breach termie armour. Meaning you do a points readjustment...whcih we're seeing now. In all codexes. Consistency.

Sir Arun wrote: given how termies dont have nades to charge into cover and thus their halberd extra I usually gets invalidated,

Then you missed the frag grenades.

Sir Arun wrote:and hammers might be too slow for some players. You also had the warding stave which you could give to characters and thus make them a real badass in duels (worth that points cost). In the new dex people will be busy clipping them off their models if they had assembled them before.

a) not many units could take warding staves
b) they were HIDEOUSLY expensive
c) theyre free on libbies and give adamantium will, meaning DTW on a 3+, rerolling 1s. I'm keeping my stave attached.

Sir Arun wrote:Ranged force is just about the only good thing to come out of the new dex.

bottom line: the new dex is a real buzzkill. Especially if you collect an SM army already, GK as an additional army lost a lot of their unique flavor and appeal.

Nope, complete tosh. Might be a buzzkill to you, but hav e you not noticed that only one reason you gave - removal of mines / nades - could remotely relate to flavour? The rest is points adjustments. And, without exception, the points adjustments are CORRECT - GK, as in ACTUAL GK, were too pricey previously.

strikes, well any PAGK, are still too expensive, as the opp cost of paying so many more points for guys that die as easily as marines isnt worth it.

Have all of my exalts Nos

I agree with NOS on everything except the PAGK.
That 4 PPM for force weapons and BoP is a steal, even if you just use it as a battery for other teams and "might come in handy" as regular power swords. where do you find 4 point power weapons for marines?
The fact its even force is just icing on top of the cake of cheap as hell power weapons and bonus warp charges.

We have people taking 15 point crusades. can you honestly say that a 1 point cheaper dude with armor instead of invul isn't worth it when he has upgraded to force weapon, provides ML, got frag and krak grenades and ATSKNF?

GKPA are EXCELLENT units within any other PA codex. its just that in GK they seem subpar on theory as you got access to troop termies who grant ML and wield force weapons for cheap anyway.

GK got butchered because the auto-take guns got nerfed? you don't even need to do anything clever with GK to be useful, just taking 3 NDK, libby and having the rest of your points into stock termies will be decent on the field due to simple 2+ saves saturation.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I agree with NOS on everything except the PAGK.
That 4 PPM for force weapons and BoP is a steal, even if you just use it as a battery for other teams and "might come in handy" as regular power swords. where do you find 4 point power weapons for marines?
The fact its even force is just icing on top of the cake of cheap as hell power weapons and bonus warp charges.

You have to consider that there's opportunity cost between not being able to take them off to save points, and they lose access to options that are arguably (particularly now) more useful than what PAGK have available to them.

GK got butchered because the auto-take guns got nerfed? you don't even need to do anything clever with GK to be useful, just taking 3 NDK, libby and having the rest of your points into stock termies will be decent on the field due to simple 2+ saves saturation.

That's actually one of my biggest complaints.

Boom - cheap objective holders don't need the extra 4ppm, and they lack cheap ap2 at range. I'd take gh any day if I want PA. Luckily I love my termies

You're not taking 3dk if you want turn 1 deep striking....

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Boom - cheap objective holders don't need the extra 4ppm, and they lack cheap ap2 at range. I'd take gh any day if I want PA. Luckily I love my termies

You're not taking 3dk if you want turn 1 deep striking....

Maybe not in a Tournament list, but outside of playing someone else's version of Myhammer, there's nothing stopping you from taking 2HQ's + 2 Troops and getting access to a possible 4 Dreadknights while retaining the first turn Deep Strike.