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GW is the one that made a fool of them, not the player still using the old 'dex. Someone using the older version takes nothing away from someone using the newer version. They could even play each other and have a more different game than if both played the same 'dex - different hive fleets ; )

Perhaps GKs were overpowered after all?

A 10 man squad of PAGKs combat squadded into two 5 man squads would only end up paying 2 points over their base cost per model to make both shots of their stormbolter S5 instead of S4...

And at the end of the day you still have a model whose base cost is 6 points more than a Space Marine, but comes with an additional ranged shot at ranges 12"-24", has an AP3 melee weapon, and most importantly of all, can deep strike and thus not be dependent on a transport?

Stuff like The Aegis and preferred enemy: daemons is only icing on the top

Removing psybolt ammo also put an end to the psyfleman dread spam that was present in every 2nd, if not every GK list. Regular rifleman dreads are still kinda useful...4 TL S7 shots at a convenient 48" that can move and shoot is still good vs incoming transports and even viable against flyers, given how many re-rolls you get.

And nobody ever said the Stormraven is underpowered, so the mandatory GK dakka raven is now also no longer present.

OTOH, we now have even more baby carrier spam...as if the Dreadknight was ever considered a waste of points.

We can also only take 2 HS and 2 FA....but at least got a competetive Libby

Then of course you have the removal of Mordrak and Thawn...no comment there, as cutting down on IP just because you couldnt be bothered to make a model is really sucky, GW.

And yeah...if you "acquire" the inquisition and assassins dataslates, you can have most of your old toys back anyway.


However, at the end of the day the fact still remains that GKs are a dumbed down Space Marine codex now. And when a new codex release is accompanied by literally zero new units, there is indeed few incentives to go and upgrade your versatile, competetive codex for this piece of bleh.

Azreal13 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

Azreal13 wrote:Not a GK player, but I'd actually prefer playing someone who had torrented all the relevant sub-books they felt they needed to play their army as updated than play against an out of date book.

Why? What difference does it make? The old GK book iis still compatible with the current rules and functions perfectly well.

Because what other reason is there not to other than cost?

If someone could get the extra books they needed for no extra cost to replace the units that have been taken out, but still insisted on usin the old book, I'd question their motives.

Personally, I would always use the new book for my armies, good or bad, because the whole thing is a massive set of swings and roundabouts and if one is invested in winning at 40K then you're in for a hard, or expensive, time. I would hold my opponent to the same standard.

And if the opponent isn't that interested in winning and just wanted to play a game with the models they have? If they dying want to/or can't access pirate copies of the new books? Assuming the opponent was doing it to save money, not to exploit something, and didn't want to pirate copies, are you seriously saying your refused them a game?

Yonan wrote:Enforcing purchase of the new 'dex on players when it's basically GK 5.1 lite only rewards GWs bad business practices. When GW pulls stunts like this - cutting 15 of the 38 units form a codex and selling them separately, then selling the new book at a higher price still - you really should push back imo.

Indeed. With the last few books (IG, SW and GK if I can be bothered) I've simply edited points cost (or used Battlescribe)and made notes on any changes in a word doc. I still have a good enough understanding to discuss and play the new books if I want, but can just as easily use the old book if I want to. I know both versions well enough to play without referring to them more then one or twice a game if that, and have spent no money.

 Paradigm wrote:

Azreal13 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

Azreal13 wrote:Not a GK player, but I'd actually prefer playing someone who had torrented all the relevant sub-books they felt they needed to play their army as updated than play against an out of date book.

Why? What difference does it make? The old GK book iis still compatible with the current rules and functions perfectly well.

Because what other reason is there not to other than cost?

If someone could get the extra books they needed for no extra cost to replace the units that have been taken out, but still insisted on usin the old book, I'd question their motives.

Personally, I would always use the new book for my armies, good or bad, because the whole thing is a massive set of swings and roundabouts and if one is invested in winning at 40K then you're in for a hard, or expensive, time. I would hold my opponent to the same standard.

And if the opponent isn't that interested in winning and just wanted to play a game with the models they have? If they dying want to/or can't access pirate copies of the new books? Assuming the opponent was doing it to save money, not to exploit something, and didn't want to pirate copies, are you seriously saying your refused them a game?

That's an awful lot of justifying you're insisting I do for what is only my stated opinion, but no, I probably wouldn't refuse the game, but I'd equally still feel slightly suspicious that their motives weren't "pure."

This is assuming I was playing a random, of course, it would be a total non-issue for my regular group as we have a "latest rules only" policy, and all have Internet access.

I'm rather surprised that there are this many people who would sit and take this codex without complaint... us GK players are literally auto-taking Dreadknights now, which is frankly a little annoying especially if you only had one of them.

Psycannons, our bread and butter will have to get remodeled largely especially if you were going assault cannon with psyammo.

Transports like the rhino and psyback are now obsolete as they provide nothing for the prefered troop choice: Terminators.

Techmarines... pretty much our best choice for anti-armor with the conversion beamer.

Soooo yea, my 4x rhino/razorback purifier army is realllly hurting right now so I'll probably end up selling part of it and then decide whether I want to use that money to make up a new one or just keep the models that I have because hey look cool.

DaPino wrote:
Oh lord, is it already time for the 'my army changed'-whine threads? Dex isn't even out.

Well these threads need to keep up with the recent speedy codex release. So now they are just being made preemptively. I think Blood angels, Dark Eldar, and Necrons threads should be popping up, complaining what might, any time now.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Oh lord, is it already time for the 'my army changed'-whine threads? Dex isn't even out.

Well these threads need to keep up with the recent speedy codex release. So now they are just being made preemptively. I think Blood angels, Dark Eldar, and Necrons threads should be popping up, complaining what might, any time now.

The entire codex leaked in News and Rumors, want a link?

.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I'll be sticking with the old one. Why? Because it works, and allows me to use the models I spent money on. If it ain't broke, it doesn't need fixing.

It's nothing to do with power levels, I'm not going to pay to replace something that already does what I bought it to do. Same reason I pretty much stopped buying books with the last SM codex and won't be touching 7th. I have, between 6th and various codexes, a ruleset that allows me to play the game, what more do I need?

allows you to play against whom? I certainly would not play a guy using a old codex when a new one exists, but it sounds if you dont play 7th, your gaming group must have come to some sort of agreement about using old books which works for you guys.

Primarily, myself , and two or three guys I've know for years and we've house ruled the game a lot in that time. If I were every to play at a store, I'd just use my SM or DA that I have the up to date rules for.

I do appreciate that not all players have the luxury of a regular group, though.

I don't think I would have much interest in playing against the old GK book in a friendly game. I mean, even when the book was current, it wasn't exactly a "friendly" codex. It was more a poorly balanced mishmash of units and special rules hellbent on convincing us of how super special the Super Special Marines really were. Oh, plus here's some Inquisition guys and assassins because, well, they're super special too. Basically, it was "One-upmanship: the Codex."

Psychotroke grenades, rad grenades, mindstrike missiles, psybolt ammo, warpquake, grand strategy, psychic pilot...all half-baked wargear/rules that I'm fairly certain most non-GK players will be glad to see go. Largely because they felt like they were conceived by a drooling fanboy rather than a person interested in game design. Unfortunately some of those still live on in the C:I book (making many of the complaints about the new GK book extra funny), but what can you do.

I mean, if I feel like taking a trip down memory lane, recalling in vivid detail how busted the end of 5th edition was because of the GK book alone, then I guess I might agree to it. But as tempting as that is, I think I'd rather forget all about it an move on to Draigo Gate-of-Infinitying 5 Grav-Centurions around the board every turn. Oh wait, $%!+.

I'll probably be getting it and using it. I'm thinking an ebook of it would work. I'm going to print it and the inquisition codex, and then blend the pages such that it comes out to the same effect as the previous one.

They still killed a lot of the flavor and options that I enjoyed of the last codex, but Codex: Dreadknight is going to be far from completely unplayable. It'll just be boring. Oh well, that hurts my opponents more than it hurts me.

I'm waiting for the stream of bitching that'll occur from all other players about how sick to death they are of seeing army after army of librarian/terminators/stormraven/dreadknight/dreadknight/dreadknight.

The DK sprue doesnt even come with 2 of every weapon, does it?

 Sir Arun wrote:
The DK sprue doesnt even come with 2 of every weapon, does it?

You can't even take two of the same on a DK

 whigwam wrote:
Psychotroke grenades, rad grenades, mindstrike missiles, psybolt ammo, warpquake, grand strategy, psychic pilot...all half-baked wargear/rules that I'm fairly certain most non-GK players will be glad to see go. Largely because they felt like they were conceived by a drooling fanboy rather than a person interested in game design. Unfortunately some of those still live on in the C:I book (making many of the complaints about the new GK book extra funny), but what can you do.

Psybolt ammo existed in the 3rd ed DH codex. It just did different things back then.

OP: No.
Old codex replaced.
You are not playing same game if using old.
Want to ask your opponent's permission? Please...

 daedalus wrote:

 whigwam wrote:
Psychotroke grenades, rad grenades, mindstrike missiles, psybolt ammo, warpquake, grand strategy, psychic pilot...all half-baked wargear/rules that I'm fairly certain most non-GK players will be glad to see go. Largely because they felt like they were conceived by a drooling fanboy rather than a person interested in game design. Unfortunately some of those still live on in the C:I book (making many of the complaints about the new GK book extra funny), but what can you do.

Psybolt ammo existed in the 3rd ed DH codex. It just did different things back then.

It ignored Invulnerable saves, back when they did fully counter demons, which wasn't a full army then as it was interlocked with 3.5 chaos.

Didn't it also make it AP4? Maybe not. Been too long.

daedalus wrote:Psybolt ammo existed in the 3rd ed DH codex. It just did different things back then.

Yeah, I'm aware. Ignoring invulnerable saves was an interesting rule at least. Definitely more flavorful than "+1S because...uh...mind-bullets."

Honestly. Between the army building software and the internet you can piece the rules together. So if you're a thrifty guy/gal that's ok but that's what this really comes down to. You don't want to spend the $50 bucks. Sure ok no problem do not hide it as an excuse of anything else though.
I haven't see a GK player take Coteaz until the the inquisition book rolled out and I've never seen one take a assassin. I ask humbly don't feed anyone that bologna please.
I'm not saying you have. I'm just saying call it what it is. You elude to that in the OP. Which I'm cool with. You don't want to spend the cash. To each their own.

I don't play GK so I can't answer the poll. I can tell you that I won't be playing anyone using the old codex. I also won't be playing anyone using the 6th edition rules. It's hard enough to keep track of what every army brings to the table without having to keep track of what they can do in their old book. I'm not going down that road. With GK it might be easier to keep track of than with other armies, but it's a slippery slope. Bring all the unbound cheese you want. I'll play titans, WS spam, or anything else you can come up with using the current rules for the game and your army.

 Yonan wrote:
Enforcing purchase of the new 'dex on players when it's basically GK 5.1 lite only rewards GWs bad business practices. When GW pulls stunts like this - cutting 15 of the 38 units form a codex and selling them separately, then selling the new book at a higher price still - you really should push back imo.

The way to fight against GW's business practices is to stop buying their products.

I quit when 7th edition was announced, along with about half the players at my FLGS. We now have 2nd edition nights and 4th edition nights for people who still want to play, and the FLGS is now selling other games which people are starting to get into.

As far as Grey Knights is concerned, you are seeing GW's move to new new marketing strategies around Codexes. Which is to say, the new norm is to release broken Codexes then sell you the fix several months / years down the line. I don't see this as something that's going to get better.

 Sir Arun wrote:
The DK sprue doesnt even come with 2 of every weapon, does it?

No comes with the bits to build 2 out of the 3 weapons.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Enforcing purchase of the new 'dex on players when it's basically GK 5.1 lite only rewards GWs bad business practices. When GW pulls stunts like this - cutting 15 of the 38 units form a codex and selling them separately, then selling the new book at a higher price still - you really should push back imo.

The way to fight against GW's business practices is to stop buying their products.
.

But why should we stop playing when we have a perfectly functional set of rules. If someone chooses to enjoy themselves without spending the money on a new codex, can you really hold they against them? You say your store plays other editions, and I don't really see how using an older GK dex (which is still compatible, and is current until Saturday so clearly works) is any different? If it were not being updated, you'd have no issue with it, nothing's going to change about the old book you've been perfectly for happy playing against.

As to those saying it's hard to keep track of what your facing, that's your opponent's responsibility, not yours. Seeing as it's your right to question anything at any time, no problem should arise. Not to mention you've been playing against the old dex for three years, that knowledge isn't going away just because a new book comes out.

No ones saying you have to, they're just saying if you're going to play outside your local group, expect some questioning.

But the poll is quite overwhemingly in favor of using the new dex

Of course not. I've never gone back and played an older edition of the game, and the only time I've played with or against an older codex was when it was for a tournament and within the 30day window.

I couldn't reasonably expect to go to any local game store and play an older codex, and I would have the same expectation of someone playing me.

Like it or not, its the new Codex.

Nope no need for it at this point
just mothballed the Gks, recycled the tanks into other imperial armies and already have c:inq
But that money i would of spent on the codex is going to DS:ASS

because i still like em.

Did they really make the Dreadknight better? Why on earth would they do that?

 krodarklorr wrote:
Did they really make the Dreadknight better? Why on earth would they do that?

Because Riptides and Wraithknights were still better

 krodarklorr wrote:
Did they really make the Dreadknight better? Why on earth would they do that?

Because its the edition of big kits and MCs. why stop the gravy train?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Did they really make the Dreadknight better? Why on earth would they do that?

Because Riptides and Wraithknights were still better

Eh, I don't think so? The Dreadknight is just better in melee than the others. What did they even do to make it better? I'm no a GK player, I'm just curious.