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I'm not sold on the achilles.

The problem is this: You are paying well over the standard cost for its armament, it lacks assault vehicle, and cannot transport terminator or centurion squads.

What you have is a very expensive artillery piece. Whilst against most lists it won't die, I can't see it earning its points back or being a MVP unit most of the time.

I have used one to put Belial in in my DW army, to boost the range of his TP homer (normal raiders were out due to the armount of lance weapons being thron around), and it worked out well (I rolled a hit with the TFC's first shot 5/6 shooting phases, which helped).
However, outside of niche lists and tactics (like iron hands achilles with a DA PFG inside), I don't see it being better than the Spartan.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I'm not sold on the achilles.

The problem is this: You are paying well over the standard cost for its armament, it lacks assault vehicle, and cannot transport terminator or centurion squads.

What you have is a very expensive artillery piece. Whilst against most lists it won't die, I can't see it earning its points back or being a MVP unit most of the time.

I have used one to put Belial in in my DW army, to boost the range of his TP homer (normal raiders were out due to the armount of lance weapons being thron around), and it worked out well (I rolled a hit with the TFC's first shot 5/6 shooting phases, which helped).
However, outside of niche lists and tactics (like iron hands achilles with a DA PFG inside), I don't see it being better than the Spartan.

Yeah, that's why I tend to use them to protect warlord and give out a nice 4++ bubble (as well as extend the Ironstone bubble too).
They also have some use in that they're almost guaranteed to get the full game's shooting, and 5-7 rounds from a thunderfire cannon is invaluable in killing OS units in an army that might have bigger problems on the whole.

Just thought of an even better use for schism of mars:

Contemptor Mortis dread with 2 kheres assault cannons and a cyclone missile launcher coming down on turn1 in a lucius drop pod. Disembark and stay in base contact with the pod (behind it) for a 3+ cover save. Obviously aiming to get rear or side armour on tanks.

12 st6 rending shots, rerolling to glance/pen. 2 st8 shots rerolling to glance/pen. And by turn 2 it also has the option of skyfire and interceptor if it likes.

24" won't be an issue due to drop pod deployment.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Just thought of an even better use for schism of mars:

Contemptor Mortis dread with 2 kheres assault cannons and a cyclone missile launcher coming down on turn1 in a lucius drop pod. Disembark and stay in base contact with the pod (behind it) for a 3+ cover save. Obviously aiming to get rear or side armour on tanks.

12 st6 rending shots, rerolling to glance/pen. 2 st8 shots rerolling to glance/pen. And by turn 2 it also has the option of skyfire and interceptor if it likes.

24" won't be an issue due to drop pod deployment.

Generally I don't think 35pts is ever worth it for the missile launcher.
Also, don't ever disembark from the pod; there is no requirement to do so.

Even if that missile launcher has 2 shots, tank hunter, and optional skyfire + interceptor. AND can be placed anywhere on the board on a 'relentless' (being a vehicle) av13 platform? ;-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2 IF tank hunting devs with missile launcher with flakk cost 78pts remember. And that doesn't come with interceptor or relentless.

Poly Ranger wrote:
2 IF tank hunting devs with missile launcher with flakk cost 78pts remember. And that doesn't come with interceptor or relentless.

They're also considered some of the most inefficient anti-air units in the game And that includes carrier cost, whereas the 35pts doesn't. My point was that the 2 S8 shots are often superfluous on a platform that already does superb damage No POTMS means the shots are often wasted.

Very good point - I had indeed added the carrier costs which skews the comparison. However - if already taking the Contemp mortis, id still say its worth its cost. 12 st6 rending shots will indeed often wreck a tank with tank hunter, but with skimmers and flyers those two st8 tank hunting shots will often make the difference, or finish off a lucky tank if not a skimmer.
Also - will help out when engaging meq and MCs.
Plus with its durability - it'll probably get a good amount of shots off and make its points back.
As you say, without Potms it will result in overkill on already damaged tanks. On paper though it gives you a much better likelyhood at killing a full hp tank.

I CAN'T WAIT FOR IA:2 TO ARRIVE!!! Thank you for this thread Tactical!

Poly Ranger wrote:
Very good point - I had indeed added the carrier costs which skews the comparison. However - if already taking the Contemp mortis, id still say its worth its cost. 12 st6 rending shots will indeed often wreck a tank with tank hunter, but with skimmers and flyers those two st8 tank hunting shots will often make the difference, or finish off a lucky tank if not a skimmer.
Also - will help out when engaging meq and MCs.
Plus with its durability - it'll probably get a good amount of shots off and make its points back.
As you say, without Potms it will result in overkill on already damaged tanks. On paper though it gives you a much better likelyhood at killing a full hp tank.

I CAN'T WAIT FOR IA:2 TO ARRIVE!!! Thank you for this thread Tactical!

Fair play.
I've always liked taking them, but if you think that 35pts can buy you some serious kit
I'll run some numbers a little later and post here
And no worries


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok I have the numbers:
Without cyclone but with schism (not rerolling glances):
AV10: 6HP, 4 pens
AV11: 4.444HP, 2.222 pens
AV12: 2.444HP, 2.444 pens
AV13: 2.444HP, 1.629629 pens
AV14: 1.679HP, 0.84 pens

With cyclone and schism (not rerolling glances):
AV10: 7.9444HP, 5.555 pens
AV11: 6.222HP, 3.555 pens
AV12: 3.9444HP, 3.444 pens
AV13: 3.555HP, 2.185185 pens
AV14: 2.290HP, 0.84 pens

Warming up to the cyclone... but cooling off the contemptor as an AT tank on the whole...

Ahh fair enough. Yeh it looks as though the sicaran wins out there. The advantages for the comp mort are drop pod deployment and also great anti-personal... just doesn't make up for that +1s on the rending (even with double shots), ignores jink and 2 lascannon shots over missile shots...

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ahh fair enough. Yeh it looks as though the sicaran wins out there. The advantages for the comp mort are drop pod deployment and also great anti-personal... just doesn't make up for that +1s on the rending (even with double shots), ignores jink and 2 lascannon shots over missile shots...

Plus the sicaran is 85pts cheaper with all the bells and whistles.

The big advantages of the contemptor over the sicaran is the anti air ability and it's relative invulnerability to krak grenades and the like. Notice that the AV12 column w/ cyclone has you putting down the flyer with room to spare for a 5+ daemon and the AV11 can handle a jink and still average putting down a nightscythe. They are both good against light vehicles where the sicarn is better against jinking serpents and the like and the contemptor is better against flying targets.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ahh fair enough. Yeh it looks as though the sicaran wins out there. The advantages for the comp mort are drop pod deployment and also great anti-personal... just doesn't make up for that +1s on the rending (even with double shots), ignores jink and 2 lascannon shots over missile shots...

Plus the sicaran is 85pts cheaper with all the bells and whistles.

It is also a fast vehicle, with longer range weapons, which makes it harder to avoid.
A plus and con is that it is a pretty large vehicle (only slightly smaller than a landraider). This means that it is harder to hide, but can also be used for LoS blocking.

ansacs wrote:The big advantages of the contemptor over the sicaran is the anti air ability and it's relative invulnerability to krak grenades and the like. Notice that the AV12 column w/ cyclone has you putting down the flyer with room to spare for a 5+ daemon and the AV11 can handle a jink and still average putting down a nightscythe. They are both good against light vehicles where the sicarn is better against jinking serpents and the like and the contemptor is better against flying targets.

Agreed. I like contemptors mainly for their flexibility - they can take on (in some way) anything in the game with some measure of efficacy.
However, these numbers require the Schism of Mars, which is almost always going to be better off on the Sicaran.

Big Blind Bill wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ahh fair enough. Yeh it looks as though the sicaran wins out there. The advantages for the comp mort are drop pod deployment and also great anti-personal... just doesn't make up for that +1s on the rending (even with double shots), ignores jink and 2 lascannon shots over missile shots...

Plus the sicaran is 85pts cheaper with all the bells and whistles.

It is also a fast vehicle, with longer range weapons, which makes it harder to avoid.
A plus and con is that it is a pretty large vehicle (only slightly smaller than a landraider). This means that it is harder to hide, but can also be used for LoS blocking.

Yeah, that's true.
Admittedly the Lucius Pod confers some pretty awesome advantages to the contemptor, but I still think the Sicaran wins out on pure kill potential.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Agreed. I like contemptors mainly for their flexibility - they can take on (in some way) anything in the game with some measure of efficacy.
However, these numbers require the Schism of Mars, which is almost always going to be better off on the Sicaran.

Alternatively you can take a Siege Master and give one unit tank hunter. Though many tournaments do not allow this right now.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/S/Siege_Assault_Van.pdf

 ansacs wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Agreed. I like contemptors mainly for their flexibility - they can take on (in some way) anything in the game with some measure of efficacy.
However, these numbers require the Schism of Mars, which is almost always going to be better off on the Sicaran.

Alternatively you can take a Siege Master and give one unit tank hunter. Though many tournaments do not allow this right now.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/S/Siege_Assault_Van.pdf

Holy craptastic mother of cheesemonkeys that list is awesome...

It really is. So flavorful and just plain cool. Though you would loose ObjSec I believe for using the FOC presented. Still awesome though.

 ansacs wrote:
It really is. So flavorful and just plain cool. Though you would loose ObjSec I believe for using the FOC presented. Still awesome though.

It looks to me like you only have to take that if your primary detachment is from there; I see nothing preventing a CAD when the list isn't used for the primary detachment. (Which means ObSec dreadnoughts )

Yep ObjSec Ironclad dreads, siege shield TAC squads w/ IC attached, and tank hunters vehicles are all awesome...but 4 HS is pretty awesome too.

I love siege assault vanguard. I've proxied (I have 1 auto-las, 1 tri las and lots of baals) and used it a few times and used a 3 strong predator squadron with autocannons, lascannons and tank hunter for 6 st7 and 6 st9 ap2 tank hunting shots. I ran them as IH back in 6th so could also easily get prescience back then.
The squadron comes in at a ridiculously cheap 345pts.

Also ran it (proxied tac marines as tac marines with manlets) as red scorpions for tac marines with a 3+ rerollable followed by a 5+ fnp for almost corbulo esq durability on each marine.

The MAJOR downside of SVA is the siege objective, combined with the list seriously lacking the actual ability to get to the objective quickly without investing in expensive landraiders or flimsy rhinos. IA2 could seriously help reduce this disadvantage.

Putting the two together is a very smart move. Does IA2 allow units to be taken with SVA?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if you can take them together can you take a lucius drop pod since drop pods are denied otherwise?

Poly Ranger wrote:
I love siege assault vanguard. I've proxied (I have 1 auto-las, 1 tri las and lots of baals) and used it a few times and used a 3 strong predator squadron with autocannons, lascannons and tank hunter for 6 st7 and 6 st9 ap2 tank hunting shots. I ran them as IH back in 6th so could also easily get prescience back then.
The squadron comes in at a ridiculously cheap 345pts.

Also ran it (proxied tac marines as tac marines with manlets) as red scorpions for tac marines with a 3+ rerollable followed by a 5+ fnp for almost corbulo esq durability on each marine.

The MAJOR downside of SVA is the siege objective, combined with the list seriously lacking the actual ability to get to the objective quickly without investing in expensive landraiders or flimsy rhinos. IA2 could seriously help reduce this disadvantage.

Putting the two together is a very smart move. Does IA2 allow units to be taken with SVA?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if you can take them together can you take a lucius drop pod since drop pods are denied otherwise?

The SAV list has loads of references to IA2?

Never mind - just realised the lucius is already an option...

It does indeed. I mean can you take IA2 options which are not listed in the SVA list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ahhh - they are all there anyway. I was looking for the contemptor mortis in the heavies so I missed it! I always overlooked the IA2 options as I never really knew the units until now...

Poly Ranger wrote:
Never mind - just realised the lucius is already an option...

It does indeed. I mean can you take IA2 options which are not listed in the SVA list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ahhh - they are all there anyway. I was looking for the contemptor mortis in the heavies so I missed it! I always overlooked the IA2 options as I never really knew the units until now...

Fair enough
Is there any reason why I can't use Clan Raukaan with the SAV list?

I've used Raukann before for SAV. SAV is screaming out for the iron stone!

Poly Ranger wrote:
I've used Raukann before for SAV. SAV is screaming out for the iron stone!

Seems like I could fiddle my 1850 to take the list

Quick question that I can't answer until the book gets here:

If a dread of any kind takes shrouded provenance, can it take a drop pod/lucius drop pod since it will then count as an ally of convenience to the detachment? Does it's dedicated transport belong to it or to the detachment?

Poly Ranger wrote:
Quick question that I can't answer until the book gets here:

If a dread of any kind takes shrouded provenance, can it take a drop pod/lucius drop pod since it will then count as an ally of convenience to the detachment? Does it's dedicated transport belong to it or to the detachment?

My best guess would be that it can't deploy in the pod.
YMDC may disagree though

That's a pity. An av13 IWND venerable dread with a 3+ cover and the crazy fire power of a contemptor mortis would be a serious thorne in the opponents flank...

Poly Ranger wrote:
That's a pity. An av13 IWND venerable dread with a 3+ cover and the crazy fire power of a contemptor mortis would be a serious thorne in the opponents flank...

I like podding 3 twin-kheres dreads down turn one, preferably in ruins, and leaving them in the pods. They're stupidly survivable and can shoot at full effectiveness thanks to open-topped.

IT'S ARRIVED!!!!!

OK - here is a quick list:

Seige Vanguard Assault (Iron Hands):

HQ:
Seige master with power sword

Master of the Forge

Troops:
5 tactical marines
Flamer
Razorback with heavy bolter

5 tactical marines
Flamer
Razorback with heavy bolter

5 tactical marines
Flamer
Razorback with heavy bolter

Fast attack:
5 assault marines
2 flamers
Rhino

Javelin attack speeder
Cyclone, multimelta, 2 hunter killer missiles

Javelin attack speeder
Cyclone, multimelta, 2 hunter killer missiles

Heavy Support:
Sicaran battle tank (tank hunter from seige master)
Lascannons, ceremite

Sicaran battle tank
Lascannons, ceremite, schism of mars

Thunderfire cannon

Thunderfire cannon

LoW:
Typhon heavy seige tank
Lascannons, ceremite, multimelta

2000pts

Deepstriking javelins letting off 4 st8 shots and a multimelta shot against rear/side armour looks awesome!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - i didn't realise that any tank could take a legacy! A fast BA vindi with ignores cover... :-D

Are you sure you can take more than one of the same Relic of the Armoury even with a Master of Relics?