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Jathom wrote:
I'm getting the feeling that Fireraven isn't very familiar with the rules for allies as pertains to transports.

Dedicated Transport - The unit that purchased the transport is the only unit that can START the game embarked in it. After that, it's fair game to any unit from the army or Battle Brother unit who can embark barring exceptions (eg Termies in Rhino chassis).

Transport - Any unit from the army, or Battle Brothers ally, may begin the game embarked in the transport barring any rules specifically forbidding that unit from being in that transport (eg Termies in Rhino chassis).

That's how it works now. It's all in black and white in the 7th Ed rule book. So with the dedicated transports being listed as FA options (and potentially HS options in the future) that means that ANY UNIT that fits the above requirements can begin the game embarked in one that wasn't purchased a dedicated transport. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Also, with the situation Fireraven described, NO ONE AND NOTHING would be allowed to ride in a Morka/Gorkanaut. It has transport capacity but no unit lists it as a transport.

Mines a grey edge rule book white with an alien on the cover.
page 82 under dedicated transports,and its the last paragraph:
Only limitation when it is deployed when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it is selected with !!! After the game begins , It can transport any friendly infantry unit, subject to transport capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicles entry.

Page: 80 Transports:
2nd at the end of the paragraph:
Sometimes there will be constraints on which types of models can embark upon a particular vehicle and this will be specified in the units entry.

Note the after the game begins IE: Turn start of turn 1.
Everything deployment, picking mission, deploying terrain, and everything else is preparing for the start not the start.

There for can you select Land raider and drop pods alone yes.
Can they be deployed before turn one with a unit that has not selected it as a dedicated transport.
NO.

Example: Space marine centurions in a space wolf drop pod. Please do this when playing against me pretty please. At the start of turn one. After 1 action is taken, I'll ask what is in the pod you go these cents. I will then go can i see your army list. U will show me they are separate entries not together I will then call the TO over they will look at the rules and your cents will die because you failed to deploy them ( also they can not deep strike on there own) and the drop pod may enter empty. I will go thanks for the free 190+ Point Advantage.

I under stand page 127 but that does not include before/During deployment that is after the start of Turn 1 and it says Embarking not Deploying big difference.
One being game breaking and the other one being well that's pretty good.

To add to that:
Embarking: Also page 180
Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark during the movement phase. Movement phase being the key point there.

Fireraven wrote:

Jathom wrote:
I'm getting the feeling that Fireraven isn't very familiar with the rules for allies as pertains to transports.

Dedicated Transport - The unit that purchased the transport is the only unit that can START the game embarked in it. After that, it's fair game to any unit from the army or Battle Brother unit who can embark barring exceptions (eg Termies in Rhino chassis).

Transport - Any unit from the army, or Battle Brothers ally, may begin the game embarked in the transport barring any rules specifically forbidding that unit from being in that transport (eg Termies in Rhino chassis).

That's how it works now. It's all in black and white in the 7th Ed rule book. So with the dedicated transports being listed as FA options (and potentially HS options in the future) that means that ANY UNIT that fits the above requirements can begin the game embarked in one that wasn't purchased a dedicated transport. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Also, with the situation Fireraven described, NO ONE AND NOTHING would be allowed to ride in a Morka/Gorkanaut. It has transport capacity but no unit lists it as a transport.

Mines a grey edge rule book white with an alien on the cover.
page 82 under dedicated transports,and its the last paragraph:
Only limitation when it is deployed when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it is selected with !!! After the game begins , It can transport any friendly infantry unit, subject to transport capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicles entry.

Page: 80 Transports:
2nd at the end of the paragraph:
Sometimes there will be constraints on which types of models can embark upon a particular vehicle and this will be specified in the units entry.

Note the after the game begins IE: Turn start of turn 1.
Everything deployment, picking mission, deploying terrain, and everything else is preparing for the start not the start.

There for can you select Land raider and drop pods alone yes.
Can they be deployed before turn one with a unit that has not selected it as a dedicated transport.
NO.

Example: Space marine centurions in a space wolf drop pod. Please do this when playing against me pretty please. At the start of turn one. After 1 action is taken, I'll ask what is in the pod you go these cents. I will then go can i see your army list. U will show me they are separate entries not together I will then call the TO over they will look at the rules and your cents will die because you failed to deploy them ( also they can not deep strike on there own) and the drop pod may enter empty. I will go thanks for the free 190+ Point Advantage.

I under stand page 127 but that does not include before/During deployment that is after the start of Turn 1 and it says Embarking not Deploying big difference.
One being game breaking and the other one being well that's pretty good.

EXACTLY! You actually just stated the rules contradicting your point.
The first point you bought up about DEDICATED TRANSPORTS, doesn't apply to drop pods bought as FA or Landraiders bought as heavy since they are not bought as DEDICATED TRANSPORTS. They are just tansports since they do not come from the DEDICATED TRANSPORTS section, thus anyone can embark upon them since they have not been bought for anyone as DEDICATED TRANSPORTS. Sorry - just trying really really hard to highlight the point that has been made repeatedly but you seem to be missing.

So are you saying tactical marines cannot deploy in a Land Raider that is not bought as a DEDICATED TRANSPORT for them? Can Ork lootas not deploy in a battlewagon since it is not listed as a DEDICATED TRANSPORT for them? If the the tacticals and lootas can deploy in these then why cannot grav cents deploy in a drop pod which hasn't been bought as a DEDICATED TRANSPORT but rather as a fast attack option (citation needed)?

Please ask a TO. You will be surprised despite after disbelieving all the people who have tried to tell you otherwise. This is not a YMDC type of thread with different interpretations - it is very clear black and white.

I actually just talked to 3 today. And they looked it over and went Ok when are they embarking onto the transport you bought. I said well during my deployment phase. they then replied well the only time you can do that is during your movement phase its right here. Unless its a dedicated transport selected with a unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
U missed the add I did at the end again thanks for reading.


Please show me the rule you can embark on a non dedicated transport in deployment.

Whilst I'm not calling you a liar - if TO's did such a thing they do not have a firm grasp on 7th edition rules and can't be running a very recognised tournament. They are also basically using house rules if they say that.

Also - if you did take units in a transport that wasn't a dedicated, yet wasn't bought for them and deployed your units inside it at the start of the game, then you must have read the rules and realised for yourself that you can do this. So I just have to ask; 1. Why are you arguing so strongly against it, 2. Why didn't you say earlier on 'that's what I thought but these TO's said this'. And 3. If you've been at a tournament all day, how have you had time over the course of the day to have this debate on dakka?

Also 3 TO's coming over for a rules dispute is pretty excessive.

i went to a shop they was all there showing new people how to play 40k and fantasy. It's an every Sunday deal. i got a smart phone been looking at the forum while i was there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
one of the new people is starting a Tau army did not have enough money for the codex I took mine up there. For him to take home and borrow till he can buy one.

P132. Small rulebook:
'Models can be deployed inside buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone.'

There is the rule allowing it. You must now provide a rule that makes any exception to this (not including vehicles unable to take units where they specify exactly which units in their wording) without using the dedicated transports rules, since it has nothing to do with dedicated transports.

It is actually poorly worded. As I see it, there are 3 relevant sections.

1. Dedicated transports:
"The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle’s entry."

However that very specifically refers only to dedicated transports, NOT to all transports.

2. Deployment
Models can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity.

This now lets you deploy units inside transport vehicles that aren't dedicated transports bought for another unit (as that is precluded by the "dedicated transports" rules. However it does NOT apply to Drop Pods as they aren't deployed in the deployment zone.

3. Combining Reserve Units.
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together

This implies you can embark any models in a Drop Pod in reserves bought from the FA section instead of as a Dedicated Transport. However it's never actually explicitly stated. It's also never explicitly stated that models who have bought a Drop Pod as a Dedicated Transport can embark upon that Drop Pod held in reserve. However it is implied that they can.

Poly Ranger wrote:
P132. Small rulebook:
'Models can be deployed inside buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone.'

There is the rule allowing it. You must now provide a rule that makes any exception to this (not including vehicles unable to take units where they specify exactly which units in their wording) without using the dedicated transports rules, since it has nothing to do with dedicated transports.

Small rule book? 6th Edition? was not aware there was a small one for 7th yet.

Regardless. I understand you can do this int he deployment zone but not in a drop pod outside of the zone.

Under this interpretation of the rules (I'm saying interpretation because there's no way this is RAI or even RAW) Morka/Gorkanauts, Battlewagons, Land Raiders, Falcons, Spartans (which are NOT Land Raiders), Caestus Assault Rams, Thunderhawks, Stompas, and a million other non dedicated transports with transport capacity are 99.9% useless as transports. Especially the flying ones.

If that were the case, GW would be shooting themselves in the foot because they WANT people to buy those big, expensive models. If I can't load up a Storm Eagle with guys before deployment then what good is it? It IS NOT a dedicated transport, nor is it listed as such in it's rules. It's a heavy or FA option, as most fliers are. Care to explain how that works? Sure my Spartan has quad lasers on it, but what am I gonna do with the 16+ (can't remember the exact capacity at the moment) transport capacity on an ASSAULT VEHICLE? Seems like it loses so much functionality it's no longer worth even looking at. The way Fireraven is saying this works removes the basic functions of so many vehicles that it would break the game in whole new ways that GW has never even dreamed of.

Jathon forgeworld stuff is not included in the codexes or the BRB they are outside and have there own rules.

As a recent example, somebody said '... my gaming buddy and I's..." That is not English.

Jathom wrote:
Under this interpretation of the rules (I'm saying interpretation because there's no way this is RAI or even RAW) Morka/Gorkanauts, Battlewagons, Land Raiders, Falcons, Spartans (which are NOT Land Raiders), Caestus Assault Rams, Thunderhawks, Stompas, and a million other non dedicated transports with transport capacity are 99.9% useless as transports. Especially the flying ones.

At most you could argue that RAW you can most definitely ride in transports dedicated or not that are deployed in your deployment zone.

You could, if you were insane, argue that it's never explicitly stated what models can embark on a transport that is held in reserve. However this would apply to ALL transports, both dedicated and not dedicated. The reason you could argue this is the rules never state "models can embark in transports held in reserve", it says "IF any units in Reserves are embarked...". It's poorly worded, it doesn't specifically state you can, but it implies you can because the "if" tells you there are circumstances where it can happen.

EDIT: Looking at the actual drop pod rules it is again implied that models can be held in reserve embarked upon them, but again it's implied instead of explicitly stated. From the SW codex: "Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves."

I wish GW would clean up their rule writing. Obviously it's intended that models can deploy in transports held in reserve, but it is only ever implied (strongly enough that you'd be crazy to argue they can't) rather than explicitly stated and the rules are spread all over the friggin place.

No, it doesn't say that (see HERE forwhat it does say).

Fireraven wrote:
Jathon forgeworld stuff is not included in the codexes or the BRB they are outside and have there own rules.

It does, but Forge World stuff designed for 40k still follows the basic rules for 40k.

What about the Space Wolves flying transport? It's not a dedicated transport. It starts in reserves. It doesn't deploy on the table turn 1. How do you get your Space Wolves into it then? Are you telling me that GW created a flying assault vehicle that you have bring on, at earliest, turn 2, switch flight modes, load up, and THEN be able to use as intended? Because that would be the dumbest thing they've ever done to sell a new model.

No because there are models and have that unit as a you may select it as a dedicated transport.

 Ghaz wrote:
No, it doesn't say that (see HERE forwhat it does say).

I stated exactly what it says

"IF any units in Reserves are embarked..."

That is implying that any model can embark on a transport held in reserve... it doesn't explicitly say any unit in reserves can embark on a transport. The "if" and "are" in that sentence mean that it's implying models can under some circumstance embark on a transport held in reserve, it doesn't actually state the circumstances where they can. Compare that to the wording in the "deployment" section which DOES explicitly state models can be deployed in transports, but only ones that are in their deployment zone:

"Models can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone"

I'm not saying you can't embark units on transports in reserves, I'm just pointing out that the 40k rules are rather poorly written in that they imply something instead of explicitly stating it

Well, I can tell you this much: you try enforce your view of the transport rules on any player I've ever met and you'd quickly run out of people to play with.

I think the forums have done a good job of pointing out where you're mistaken. Your TO's are wrong. It happens. It would happen a lot less if GW would take ownership of its rules and issue FAQ's and errata more often, but it happens none the less.

The general consensus and reading of the rules gives you a leg to stand on (even though it also disagrees with your interpretation of them), but it's a wooden leg made of a piece of 1/4 inch balsa; not a sturdy or secure position.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
No, it doesn't say that (see HERE forwhat it does say).

I stated exactly what it says

"IF any units in Reserves are embarked..."

First of all, you edited your post, which did NOT say what the rulebook says. Doing so does not validate your position.

With the change you could now take a 10 GKPA Squad it's Dedicated Razorback and then Combat Squad putting 5 in it and put the second 5 in the FA Razorback.

 Ghaz wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
No, it doesn't say that (see HERE forwhat it does say).

I stated exactly what it says

"IF any units in Reserves are embarked..."

First of all, you edited your post, which did NOT say what the rulebook says. Doing so does not validate your position.

I did edit my post, however I did NOT edit that part of the text. That was always written in it. You just missed it.

And that is exactly what's written in the rulebook, I just emphasised the "If" part to show that it is implying rather than explicitly stating the circumstances under which something can occur.

well the rules say a unit can not be partially embarked or spread apart multiple transports but hay why lets do that. i mean we can throw what ever in what ever now basically from different codexs. I'm going to start deep striking my cents in my blood angel land raider for more lols.

I'm wanting to try out ogryn in land raiders with primaris psychers supported by pod units. Hmmmmm....

Seriously though, many of the transports are worth their points (I believe) in their own right as firepower in thier own right and if I remember right, not all units really have options for dedicated transport.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
It is actually poorly worded. As I see it, there are 3 relevant sections.

1. Dedicated transports:
"The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle’s entry."

However that very specifically refers only to dedicated transports, NOT to all transports.

2. Deployment
Models can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity.

This now lets you deploy units inside transport vehicles that aren't dedicated transports bought for another unit (as that is precluded by the "dedicated transports" rules. However it does NOT apply to Drop Pods as they aren't deployed in the deployment zone.

3. Combining Reserve Units.
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together

This implies you can embark any models in a Drop Pod in reserves bought from the FA section instead of as a Dedicated Transport. However it's never actually explicitly stated. It's also never explicitly stated that models who have bought a Drop Pod as a Dedicated Transport can embark upon that Drop Pod held in reserve. However it is implied that they can.

It is explicitly stated. Right there in your third quote. 'You must specify if any units in reserve are embarked upon ANY Transport vehicles in reserve'. Plain and simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fireraven wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
P132. Small rulebook:
'Models can be deployed inside buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone.'

There is the rule allowing it. You must now provide a rule that makes any exception to this (not including vehicles unable to take units where they specify exactly which units in their wording) without using the dedicated transports rules, since it has nothing to do with dedicated transports.

Small rule book? 6th Edition? was not aware there was a small one for 7th yet.

Regardless. I understand you can do this int he deployment zone but not in a drop pod outside of the zone.

Drop pods deploy from reserve thus have different rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fireraven wrote:
No because there are models and have that unit as a you may select it as a dedicated transport.

What about a raven? So you must do what Jathom suggested you would have to do using your logic with a raven? That is not a DT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fireraven wrote:
well the rules say a unit can not be partially embarked or spread apart multiple transports but hay why lets do that. i mean we can throw what ever in what ever now basically from different codexs. I'm going to start deep striking my cents in my blood angel land raider for more lols.

You cannot do th e former as it is explicitly stated in the rules you may not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - following your logic would mean any drop pod unit could only deploy in their deployment zone.

Poly Ranger wrote:
It is explicitly stated. Right there in your third quote. 'You must specify if any units in reserve are embarked upon ANY Transport vehicles in reserve'. Plain and simple.

Actually no it doesn't. It says you must specify if any units blah blah. It doesn't explain the circumstances under which those units are embarked upon the transport.

I agree that it's strongly implied... but this is why so many people dislike 40k rules, it's not well written. The rules for transports outline how you embark and disembark vehicles during a game, the rules for deployment describe how you can embark on a vehicle in your deployment, however the rules for combined reserves simply state if a unit is embarked on a transport in reserve blah blah blah. They don't actually tell you that any model in reserve can embark on any transport, they state if models are embarked in transports in reserves blah happens.

You have to make the logical assumption that any unit that is normally allowed to embark on a transport can do so.

It's the difference between writing:

"Any unit in reserve can embark on a transport in reserve as long as it fulfils the criteria for being able to embark under normal circumstances. You must specify if any unit is embarked on a transport in reserve, in which case they will arrive together."

That would actually be clear. I know I'm being pedantic and I do obviously think that units can embark on a transport in reserve... I'm just pointing out the rules are poorly written.

Doesn't seem poorly written to me. Just seems to have some respect for the reader, rather than spelling everything out for them like they're a five year old.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Doesn't seem poorly written to me. Just seems to have some respect for the reader, rather than spelling everything out for them like they're a five year old.

To someone who has already played a lot of 40k that may be the case. But to someone reading the rules for the first time, the way it is worded would imply that it's written somewhere else what units can and can't be deployed in transports in reserve, especially since GW love spreading rules out across multiple sections of books and even across different books.

They're not having respect for the reader, quite the opposite, they lack respect for the reader thus they don't put the effort in to writing rules properly. It's a rulebook for feths sake, they should be spelling things out... age has nothing to do with it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Doesn't seem poorly written to me. Just seems to have some respect for the reader, rather than spelling everything out for them like they're a five year old.

That is one of the dumbest thing I ever heard about rules in my life. Why even have them if they don't say what the writer wants them to say.

But it does say what the writer wants it to say. It states explicitly that units can be deployed in a transport in reserve, because it states that there are restrictions upon doing so. If you couldn't deploy on transports in reserve, it would say "You can't deploy on transports in reserve."

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It states explicitly that units can be deployed in a transport in reserve.

Maybe we have different definitions of "explicitly" Because the wording only indicates "if" and not "how", the "how" is implied, not explicit. Because there are no other rules defining how a unit embarks on a transport in reserve, you're left to assume that any unit can embark on a transport in reserve.

Fireraven wrote:
well the rules say a unit can not be partially embarked or spread apart multiple transports but hay why lets do that. i mean we can throw what ever in what ever now basically from different codexs. I'm going to start deep striking my cents in my blood angel land raider for more lols.

You do not have a good grasp of the 7th edition rules*, and from your description the "TOs" are shop staff, who generally have poor knowledge of the games rules (sadly)

The rules for preparing reserves allows you to embark upon ANY transport. ANY TRANSPORT. Your opinion ios noted, and rules have been provided refuting it. I suggest you raise this as a YMDC question if you wish to expound further on it.

Oh, and 7th does have a small rulebook - dark vengeance and the collectors sets both

*actually 4th edition, for those missions whcih had the Reserves special rule, also allowed you to do this