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Totally went over my head. touché

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Why on earth would anyone want them to be daft enough to 'advance' the story rather than just tell a good story in one part of this galaxy, thus allowing the rest of us to keep telling our stories without having to feel like our stories don't match the big event anymore?

This.

Part of the reason the story has to advance in WHFB is that it primarily takes place on a single Europe size continent. The great thing about 40k is its a whole galaxy. There's a trillion interesting stories taking place every day in the Imperium. That's why I really liked the Armageddon campaign, it was important but localised enough that a result either way doesn't effect the overall canon (the Imperials were defeated? Ah well what's new, Decline and Fall and all that...) whereas the Eye of Terror campaign was ridiculously huge that the result could in a fluff context only disappoint.

That campaign also had other flaws namely the scoring system they used which totally buggered up the result. Also a sector wide campaign in what was only a few weeks meant there was little background detail beyond rehashing Abaddon who frankly I think they should just kill off, its not very Chaos-y to let that serial loser keep the top spot for 10,000 years. Hell that could be a campaign kicker in of itself, have a new young gun murder Abaddon and try a different strategy.

I think due to the Horus Heresy books the big players have become too humanised. 40k is meant to be a setting in which you create your own stories, in real terms the Emperor and the like are not important, they're background detail. I have no interest in seeing the Primarchs return, they serve a narrative purpose by being absent, the Imperium is in flames and humanity could really use some demigods to help them out but guess what they're haven't shown up - grim dark, holding out hope, impending doom - strong dramatic themes.

What happens if the Primarchs return? In a world of giant guns and giant heroes who would put Super Conan to shame, we have the norm turned up to 11 while also upsetting the established canon and themes. Its not worth it IMO. Same goes for the Emperor, his physical shell is dying and no one is really sure if he'll ascend afterwards to lead a new golden age or just die, putting humanity into darkness. Why answer that question? Its an excellent set-up and the answer will never live up to the hype.

I always thought the obvious way around the Eye of Terror thing while still having a large scale Chaos-focused campaign it to rehash the Battlefleet Gothic setting or frankly rip it off since BFG has been consigned to the dustbin. Have Chaos come through another wormhole and make a drive for Earth. Plenty at stake but even a crippling win for the Dark Gods just means Sector X has fallen, yet another wound in the Imperium's side. Hell you could keep it running yearly, every time its a new star system and a Chaos victory means they're getting closer to Terra.

Some would say that's boring that the stakes aren't high enough but they seem to be forgetting this is a serial setting, it cannot end. Chaos can no more reach Terra than Lex Luthor can murder Superman (and it stick I mean). Look back at Armageddon, they gave rich detail about that single planet and its importance to the Imperium that even though its loss would not kill humanity, you cared as a player. It wasn't about god-beings, it was about the Orks trying to seize the water refineries that if destroyed would doom billions of citizens, or Yarrick leading entire chapters of Space Marines in a charge on the Rok landing sites to cut off reinforcements. The Fluff, or rather the fluff certain people (both writers and readers) focus on is so epic in scale it seems to make them forget that the 'normal' stuff is already gargantuan. Ironically that stuff ends up becoming small again with only a select group of deities mattering to the story, while untold awesome events happening on countless worlds go ignored.

Like I said before, they already did end Times 40k, and as the above post pretty much stated it was a disappoinment, mainly as gw didn't have the balls to do what they said they'd do, I remember speaking to one of the design studio at the time of the 13th black crusade and he stated that should chaps win then fenris would be destroyed, ulthwe would be gone etc.

Clearly the studio didn't actually expect chaos to win, as they bailed on pretty much everything I was told.

Now if they go back to the 13th black crusade and expand upon it, flesh out the pretty poor fluff it had and introduce new models and characters, well, that would be cool.

And I wish people would stop saying abbadon is a failure, he isn't, he achieved every goal he set for himself in his black crusades, lack of a decent model I feel feeds the mockery

Perhaps if the Imperium wasn't limited to roughly 1,000 subjects for each Chapter(even those well represented), advancing the storyline in a singular area would be fine. As it stands, with the current 'ongoing, just wrapped up, or planned' conflicts in the storyline, most of the major Chapters wouldn't be represented. This would make the unimaginative Marine players very sad.

 Formosa wrote:


And I wish people would stop saying abbadon is a failure, he isn't, he achieved every goal he set for himself in his black crusades, lack of a decent model I feel feeds the mockery

Well....after a bit of helpful retconning anyway.

"All those Black Crusades that got stopped? Yeah, I meant to do that! I didn't lose, I was just practicing!!!!"

I would look forward to just an advancement of the timeline to wrap up character stories and introduce new ones. (I have the same feelings towards comics.)

Alright, a vision of 40K end times.

Ghazkull Un Thraka forms the largest Waaaggh in history, his rivals are beaten into submission or rally to his banner.

Ahriman finally finds the Black Library and absorbs it's knowledge, leaving a burning shell in his wake.

Abbadon see's the Un Thraka's Waaaggh is heading to Terra. Reports of a Tyranid fleet approaching Terra reach him as well. The Emperor is his to kill and his alone. Bargaining with the newly empowered Ahriman and the Chaos Gods Abbadon launches one last Black Crusade.

The Chaos fleet comes out of the warp in Ghazkulls path. The two fleet's battle while Abbadon leads a boarding action on Ghazkulls rok, hoping to decapitate the Waaagh. He reaches the throne room of the mighty Ork Warlord. Terminators clash with Nobs, the sounds of power claws and bolters are but a din to Abbadon and Ghazkull as the two clash in personal combat. Finally though, Abbadon over powers the Ork and cleaves him in two. A hasty retreat is called as the Orks fall upon each other to lead the Waaagh!

The Imperium had been hastily assembling warships and forces to Terra in preparation. Even with more ships arriving strategists worry that it won't be enough. Suddenly Eldar fleets arrive offering aid. Can Holy Terra be defiled by the presence of aliens? Desperate times force the Imperium to allow the Eldar to assist.

Abbadon and his fleet emerge from the Warp above Terra. As ships move to engage, Ahriman uses his new magics to create a warp storm, isolating the planet.

(2nd Siege of Terra)

Abbadon manages to get to the steps of the Golden Throne. Dante blocks his path. The two duel but finally Abbadon stabs Dante through the breast plate, killing him. Abbadon smiles as victory is finally his but he hears multiple footsteps on the stairs. He looks up and screams in horror for standing there is the Emperor whole, with Horus at his side. Abbadon snaps and attacks. Horus deflects Abbadon's wild swings, making it obvious to all in attendance that Abbadon is out matched. Finally, Horus snaps Abbadon's neck and watches the life flow out of him.

Ahriman becomes a gibbering wreck from having all that power in him. The Warp Storms subside and the Chaos forces are forced to retreat for a second time from Terra. So the Imperium began, so the Imperium ended.

I thought about that in class and on the way home. Just a thought on how an End Times 40K would work.

But doing the small campaigns work too. Either way.

 Coldstream wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


And I wish people would stop saying abbadon is a failure, he isn't, he achieved every goal he set for himself in his black crusades, lack of a decent model I feel feeds the mockery

Well....after a bit of helpful retconning anyway.

"All those Black Crusades that got stopped? Yeah, I meant to do that! I didn't lose, I was just practicing!!!!"

None of them got stopped, he mainly had an objective, went for it, accomplished it and left.

I think it would be cool. Primarchs not only come back from the warp but some changes sides, Magnus the red takes his fathers place at the throne so that the EM can start his physical healing process, sssshh its a secreat. Russ becomes a Daemon from being in the warp for too long and his legion has to deal with the betrayl, same as the thousand sons. This attracks a huge tyranid force invasion, as the EM and Magnus are in one spot, A new Mega-Ork Warboss, replaceses Ghazkull after his death. The tau gain necron slip stream travel, but still have to deal with the skisim from Commander Farsight. The Eldar lear how to replicate at the cost of increasing the power of Slanesssh.

I some of these ideas may be impossible but there are sooo many possibilitys I would hate for them to no explore them.

Do you want the story to advance the way you don't want it to advance?
There'd be even more whining and rage-quitting cause the story can't satisfy everyone.
Personally, i don't mind storry advancement. But i think that GW won't do it just yet. They're getting really heavy on the "It's coming, it's coming!" part with every new dex and rulebook. They might advance the story when all the dexes are updated to the new format.

...and what do you think they reserve LoW slots for?

 koooaei wrote:
Do you want the story to advance the way you don't want it to advance?
There'd be even more whining and rage-quitting cause the story can't satisfy everyone.
Personally, i don't mind storry advancement. But i think that GW won't do it just yet. They're getting really heavy on the "It's coming, it's coming!" part with every new dex and rulebook. They might advance the story when all the dexes are updated to the new format.

...and what do you think they reserve LoW slots for?

Or they get desperate.

They got desperate with fantasy, the line was failing, in terminal decline in several markets. In one of their moments of actual intelligence, they realized that one of the main draws to their games are the settings, so shaking things up thematically while providing only minor to moderate overarching rules changes, without having to deal with that big pink elephant in the corner of pricing, they've driven up attention, and at least anecdotally, that has driven up the game's performance. I've seen regular fantasy games for the first time in years, consistently, at multiple stores, and product is actually moving again. I can't fathom the full scale, or how long it'll last, but they certainly seem to have found something which works. (Though I suspect its compounded by how bad 40k has become, rather than the End Times alone) If their flagship of 40k starts to struggle (and by all accounts, GW is seeing declining product movements, from the anecdotal stories to the financial reports), I suspect they'll try the same approach if they see returns they like with Fantasy.

Truly, I suspect it's more a matter of when, not if there is a 40k End Times.

Gapow wrote:
Well the Eldar would probably be wiped out, so everyone could stop whinging about Wave Serpents for 5 minutes

Sold.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Gapow wrote:
Well the Eldar would probably be wiped out, so everyone could stop whinging about Wave Serpents for 5 minutes

Sold.

Tau will also get wiped out so that everyone could stop whining about riptides and markers.

Dark Eldar win.

mrgarm13 wrote:
I would look forward to just an advancement of the timeline to wrap up character stories and introduce new ones. (I have the same feelings towards comics.)

Alright, a vision of 40K end times.

Ghazkull Un Thraka forms the largest Waaaggh in history, his rivals are beaten into submission or rally to his banner.

Ahriman finally finds the Black Library and absorbs it's knowledge, leaving a burning shell in his wake.

Abbadon see's the Un Thraka's Waaaggh is heading to Terra. Reports of a Tyranid fleet approaching Terra reach him as well. The Emperor is his to kill and his alone. Bargaining with the newly empowered Ahriman and the Chaos Gods Abbadon launches one last Black Crusade.

The Chaos fleet comes out of the warp in Ghazkulls path. The two fleet's battle while Abbadon leads a boarding action on Ghazkulls rok, hoping to decapitate the Waaagh. He reaches the throne room of the mighty Ork Warlord. Terminators clash with Nobs, the sounds of power claws and bolters are but a din to Abbadon and Ghazkull as the two clash in personal combat. Finally though, Abbadon over powers the Ork and cleaves him in two. A hasty retreat is called as the Orks fall upon each other to lead the Waaagh!

The Imperium had been hastily assembling warships and forces to Terra in preparation. Even with more ships arriving strategists worry that it won't be enough. Suddenly Eldar fleets arrive offering aid. Can Holy Terra be defiled by the presence of aliens? Desperate times force the Imperium to allow the Eldar to assist.

Abbadon and his fleet emerge from the Warp above Terra. As ships move to engage, Ahriman uses his new magics to create a warp storm, isolating the planet.

(2nd Siege of Terra)

Abbadon manages to get to the steps of the Golden Throne. Dante blocks his path. The two duel but finally Abbadon stabs Dante through the breast plate, killing him. Abbadon smiles as victory is finally his but he hears multiple footsteps on the stairs. He looks up and screams in horror for standing there is the Emperor whole, with Horus at his side. Abbadon snaps and attacks. Horus deflects Abbadon's wild swings, making it obvious to all in attendance that Abbadon is out matched. Finally, Horus snaps Abbadon's neck and watches the life flow out of him.

Ahriman becomes a gibbering wreck from having all that power in him. The Warp Storms subside and the Chaos forces are forced to retreat for a second time from Terra. So the Imperium began, so the Imperium ended.

I thought about that in class and on the way home. Just a thought on how an End Times 40K would work.

But doing the small campaigns work too. Either way.

Was with you all they until The Big E was stood up all of a sudden, and he had Horus beside him, who isn't just dead, dude is like DEAD dead...

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Was with you all they until The Big E was stood up all of a sudden, and he had Horus beside him, who isn't just dead, dude is like DEAD dead...

Well, he got better.

Horus got cloned perfectly.... So he could conceivably come back again, it wouldn't ve the horus but a horus prior to his fall (I.e a fresh horus)

White Wolf finally, after several incarnations of their 'near apocalyptic' World of Darkness themed games, staged a full and total End Times.

Shortly thereafter the company ceased to exist.

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Gapow wrote:
Well the Eldar would probably be wiped out, so everyone could stop whinging about Wave Serpents for 5 minutes

Sold.

Tau will also get wiped out so that everyone could stop whining about riptides and markers.

Not likely, since they're on the opposite end of the galaxy from everything that's going on.

Not likely, since they're on the opposite end of the galaxy from everything that's going on.

And directly in the path of like 4 Tyranid Hive Fleets, and with the Space Marines on the opposite side of the galaxy fighting Abaddon, there's noone to stop them.

 Formosa wrote:
Horus got cloned perfectly.... So he could conceivably come back again, it wouldn't ve the horus but a horus prior to his fall (I.e a fresh horus)

You mean the one's that got completely destroyed by Abbadon, as well as all the material that could be used to make more Horus CLones?

While cloning his body might (theoretically) be possible, his soul was destroyed utterly. Wiped completely out of existence. So you don't get a New Horus, you get Some Guy That Looks Like Horus.

Question is where does the game go once you've done the End Times?

If it mirrors WHFB's current high-jinks and people's wish the Emperor comes back all fresh faced where does that leave the product? I think you can do plenty of important events without something so extreme, and yes the Emperor coming back up-ends the entire product. Even ignoring niggling issues it would mean the Imperium gets fresh wind and logical, awesome leadership which is destined for the land of Mary Sue.

Some suggestions, none of which are totally new but beyond vague references have never been expanded on by the official canon. All play to the Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire theme without chucking the baby out with the bath water.

The Segmentum Pacificus is currently in flames due to rebellion. Why not have the Imperium lose that region completely due to her overstretched resources, leading to a rival human empire or religious schism? Interestingly this is normal citizens albeit encouraged by CSM, presumably the Alpha Legion which opens up a lot of possibilities.

Its been mentioned that Ultramar is not a totally unique case and that Space Marine chapters are increasingly being asked to directly rule regions of the Imperium. This is a clear sign of Imperial decline from the centre. Mirroring the real world Western Roman Empire have outlying governors be 'allowed' to established petty kingdoms, praising the Emperor but looking completely to their own defense, which in turns weakens Terra further, leads to more inter-human wars, factionalism etc. Indeed why not a Huron-esque chapter master do the same, only this time the Imperium is unable or unwilling to launch something as huge as the Badab War and to muddy the waters he is totally loyal to the Emperor as an idea but thinks the High Lords are morons. Basically the Imperium begins to devolve into something truly feudal, with Terra defended for religious reasons and the Astronomicon but beyond that its all about your own chapter, world, family, clan, corporation etc.

Have Chaos use its evil magic to burst open a new 'Little Eye of Terror' deep in Imperial space from which Abaddon launches a do or die Crusade against Terra. Cadia still needs defending but now the Imperium has been caught in the flank and huge resources are pulled back, with entire sectors being thrown to the dogs so Earth is safe. Abaddon is beaten back but the Imperium has been brutally wounded, lost not only countless soldiers in the fight but countless worlds stripped of defenders. There is now a second major point of entry for Chaos, Imperial power has been shaken like never before, other enemies have made vast inroads into human space and certain Imperial governors are mortified by the example, worried that maybe next time it will be there sector stripped of able bodied men and left defenceless.

The latter in particular could lead to plenty of concrete events (just spit balling 'cool' ideas).

1) The new Eye is birthed from the bloodshed around Angron's monolith on Armageddon, consuming that crucial hive world, dozens more and untold Imperial soldiers in the process, plus giving Chaos a foothold in the Solar Segmentum.
2) Abaddon makes it to Sol. Titan is overrun by daemons, forcing Exterminatus and leaving the Grey Knights all but destroyed.
3) In order to hold off the invasion big name Chapter Masters and others die. Hell maybe one of the primarchs actually returns, only to die in some huge heroic act like taking out the Planet Killer on course to nuke Terra.
4) Abaddon lands on Terra and is determined to destroy the Golden Throne only for huge Imperial reinforcements to enter the system. A cunning lieutenant (established as a major character) of his realises they are doomed if they stay and kills Abaddon himself (completely backed up by the cackling Chaos Gods) so he can take command. He orders one final destructive act before departing, the reactors on Mars are sent into overload, returning the planet to a barren wasteland and destroying weapons, knowledge and manpower that can never be replaced. He makes it clear, next time will be the last time.

All of this would be big changes but the Emperor remains seated and the Imperium remains doomed. The grim dark get grimmer but ultimately the universe we all (well some) know and love remains standing.

 Jape wrote:
4) Abaddon lands on Terra and is determined to destroy the Golden Throne only for huge Imperial reinforcements to enter the system. A cunning lieutenant (established as a major character) of his realises they are doomed if they stay and kills Abaddon himself (completely backed up by the cackling Chaos Gods) so he can take command. He orders one final destructive act before departing, the reactors on Mars are sent into overload, returning the planet to a barren wasteland and destroying weapons, knowledge and manpower that can never be replaced. He makes it clear, next time will be the last time.

All of this would be big changes but the Emperor remains seated and the Imperium remains doomed. The grim dark get grimmer but ultimately the universe we all (well some) know and love remains standing.

I'd think the Void Dragon might have something to say about Chaos nuking Mars...

Anyway, I think you raise the proper point at the beginning of your reply "Where do you go once you've done the End Times?"

Typical for most settings is: nowhere.

What that usually means is one of two things,

Choice 1: like MeanGreenStompa said with White Wolf, the company (and setting) ceases to exist. Maybe it wouldn't be that extreme to shutter GW, but might result in what happens with the various D&D version changes that leads to further splintering of the community...something the hobby probably can't really afford.

Or Option B: You see what happens in the Battletech and/or Star Wars Universe...the "narrative" has been advanced, we've sold lots of new books/models, but invariably find ourselves forced back to where we were before. The Battletech Universe broke itself after the Clan invasion/rediscovery of Lostech and reformation of the Star League...they eventually had to shatter everything back again and move the setting into a "New" Dark age...which is pretty where we were before. How many times is the Star War universe going to go back to the well of "Oh no...an evil individual (who may or may not be a clone of Palpatine) is here with a new Death Star/Sun Crusher/SuperDuperStar Destroyers, etc...if only we had some sort of Force sensitive twins able to stop them!" I'd guess the same thing would happen to the 40K Universe. "We're at the End Times!!!! The Imperium is tottering! Chaos is crazy! The Eldar are snobby! The Tyranid are eating stuff! Such a fun new storyline! Wait...."

The 40K universe was never really meant to "advance" per se when it was created. We've seen the trouble the BL has making past settings and characters make cohesive sense in the HH...and failing in many cases.

Trying to force a setting in a direction it was never really intended to go usually only leads to heartbreak.

But then GW has also written themselves into a position where they can't really do *anything* with the setting. Settings need to grow and develop, that doesn't mean a linear progression per se, but you need to do something.

In terms of game product, they can't go back very far into 40k's history without effectively axing all the Xeno factions save Eldar/Orks without telling people to play "counts as," and thus being stuck to about a century in late m41, and more often than not, 999M41 specifically, they keep trying to sell us new products which don't hold any real fluff grab. New generic Guard character who dies in the same book they're introduced? Meh, random Chaos warband no one's ever heard of before, because the Traitor Legions are all spoken for? Meh.

Insofar as the vibrancy of the setting is concerned, what exists now isn't much worse than doing going through a cycle of change and ending up, more or less, back where they started. At least we'd see some new characters, stories and developments to occupy our time and imagination, and allow some secondary plots to actually resolve. To go back to the Starwars analogy, sure, the EU basically went in a big circle, but that trip gave us Grand Admiral Thrawn and Gilad Pellaeon, the Yuuzhang Vong (Ahoy, Starwars Tyranids) amongst others. Sure, not everyone liked the direction the setting went, but at least it gave people something to talk about, and could be ignored freely (lord knows I try to ignore several of the films), and individual story arcs were completed.

Simply put, I can't be excited about the 3rd War for Armaggeddon and the defense of Cadia in the 13th Black Crusade anymore. The universe would no doubt end up going to something resembling the status quo, but at least along the way we could have Yarrick and Ghazzie have their final showdown, have the Tau lose some of their innocence caught betwixt Tyranid, Ork and Ultramarine, and either escalate to a galactic power or crumple into something altogether darker, maybe have Farsight bring a reckoning, have Huron carve out his own piratical empire before, perhaps, finally realizing how far he's fallen and perhaps act as the trump card which finally kills Abbaddon before the 2nd Siege of Terra can conclude, thus bringing things back to status quo, etc, etc.

I just want something to talk about again or be excited about.

 Coldstream wrote:
I'd think the Void Dragon might have something to say about Chaos nuking Mars...

Well the Blackstone Fortresses were built to defeat the Void Dragon and Abaddon has two of them kicking around. The C'tan are basically non-entities in 40k lore now, perfect for a 'big event' with little day-to-day impact. Judging by the End Times in WHFB the company is big on clusterfeth finales so chucking in the Necrons... why not?

As you say 40k is meant to be a timeless Ragnarok however narratives must be spun and I think something can be gotten out of a middle ground between current 40k events where nothing changes at all and the wet dreams of HH fanboys who want the Emperor to return and 'finish' the story. This is the basis for my suggestions, using established but inactive fluff elements (Angron's Monolith, Void Dragon, Thousand Rebellions) and killing off big name characters to provide narrative drive without totally destroying the setting. Abaddon for instance, though cool is basically a Dr. Evil, he is not necessary to the CSM narrative, killing him would be shocking and if done as I suggested or vaguely similar it would remind the fans that the Chaos Gods are not supervillains but fickle gods who do not trifle with mere millennia and certainly do not put all their eggs in one basket. Similarly Dante could die stopping Abaddon from reaching the Emperor, it mirrors his primarch and also feeds into this tidbit from the 5th edition BA Codex:

Recorded in the Scrolls of Sanguinius are the Primarchs visions of a great battle to overshadow all others, where one golden warrior will stand between his Emperor and the darkness. For many generations of the Blood Angels, these prophecies have been read as Sanguinius's foreknowledge of his own fate, yet through some instinct, perhaps a lingering trace of his Primarch's fabled far-seeing eye, Dante believes otherwise. One day, perhaps one day soon, the defence of the Emperor will rest in Dante's hands, and he aims to fulfill this final duty.

All of this is not to say I'm particularly to keen for this stuff, I'd rather have fluff and summer campaigns focusing on single planets and systems like Armageddon and the Badab War that actually make the 40k universe seem bigger by their detail and narrow-focus. However if you would do it my suggestions are designed to show "big" events can happen without burning the entire product to the ground in the process.

The Void Dragon did get shot up by the weapons made to destroy the C'tan and it made him... perhaps just a shard of him, sleepy and quite a bit weakened. Though still strong enough to give a "young" emperor a hell of a fight.

 Jape wrote:
Abaddon for instance, though cool is basically a Dr. Evil, he is not necessary to the CSM narrative, killing him would be shocking and if done as I suggested or vaguely similar it would remind the fans that the Chaos Gods are not supervillains but fickle gods who do not trifle with mere millennia and certainly do not put all their eggs in one basket. Similarly Dante could die stopping Abaddon from reaching the Emperor, it mirrors his primarch...

This could be a direction they could take but who or what would they replace Abaddon with? My big concern is they'd give into the temptation to go for some uber-Abaddon who's even more juiced up on Chaosy-powers and the like ("featuring 25% more Topknot!!!").

Once the floodgates for "story advancement!" opens, it's harder to resist doing it again every time sales lag or people start complaining etc....and what do we do? Well, let's axe this last batch of SM Chapter Masters for new ones and knock off uber-Abaddon and replace him with Mecha-Abaddon!!!! (Especially since GW would helpfully have models to sell to Chaos fanboys)

I guess another comparison to this tendency would be what happened in the world of Professional Wrestling [Pro-wrestling mention on a 40K thread....Nerd achievement: Unlocked!]

When original ECW and the rest of the "hardcore" wrestling type stuff came around and we saw heavy uses of chairs, tables and the like in assorted matches. It works for a while but sooner or later people get numbed to it and they had to go further....well, lets introduce flaming furniture, staplers, light tubes, etc...which again works for a bit, but eventually becomes stale. Rather than relying on good storytelling and quality characters, wrestling went for the easy shock value to create storylines, and, as Jim Cornette will tell you, has really hurt the business.

That's what I would fear would happen with the 40K universe if they attempted to advance the story and make it "MOAR GRIMDARK!!!!"

That will only last for a little while, we'd become accustomed to it and demand more change, so GW kills a bunch more names, steps up the dark...and repeat until eventually GW's only solution is trying to kick the Grimdark up to 11....eventually you'd reach the point where you'd have to ask "How much more Grimdark can this setting be?" And the answer will be "None....none more Grimdark..."


Anyway, I'd have to say since we've got a whole galaxy to play with, the idea of smaller, more focused stories that can bring individual planets or settings along would be a fine thing. Plenty of room for narratives to be created and finished. Heck, if you're bored with what's currently going on, create your own stories and characters! Definitely something that's missing from today's games: making things your own.

I like the ambiguous ending that GW leave, allows all sort of fan-fiction and fluff to flourish.

You can bring the emperor back without it ending everything.

He comes back and ascends to god hood as we all suspect, but he is also in the warp now completely, he is effectively a chaos god, which expands the EoT till it is 5 times the size it is now. The religious nutters of the imperium continue to support him, even through various mutations that befell them (this includes the sisters of battle) including some marine chapters and lots go guard regiments, whilst the other half including the inquisition are against them. So, mass civil war. The chaos gods still fight the emp, including the marines, but they also fight the imperium, and a load of the primarch's come back, bad and good, and all the elder gods of legend, and they all are either out to destroy or support the emp.

An example of this could be Magnus now supporting the Big E, whilst Angron still wanting him dead or Russ supporting the new chaos god as he's an idiot (and a deamon prince of the big E) and the lion opposing him as he isn't an idiot.

They could just go mental with it basically.

 Coldstream wrote:
Once the floodgates for "story advancement!" opens, it's harder to resist doing it again every time sales lag or people start complaining etc....and what do we do? Well, let's axe this last batch of SM Chapter Masters for new ones and knock off uber-Abaddon and replace him with Mecha-Abaddon!!!! (Especially since GW would helpfully have models to sell to Chaos fanboys)

Totally true of course.

Anyway, I'd have to say since we've got a whole galaxy to play with, the idea of smaller, more focused stories that can bring individual planets or settings along would be a fine thing. Plenty of room for narratives to be created and finished. Heck, if you're bored with what's currently going on, create your own stories and characters! Definitely something that's missing from today's games: making things your own.

Amen.

I guess another comparison to this tendency would be what happened in the world of Professional Wrestling [Pro-wrestling mention on a 40K thread....Nerd achievement: Unlocked!

You can bring the emperor back without it ending everything...

Excluding (most of) the material universe, everything you just said puts big massive shivs into 40k