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This isnt that obnoxiously loud guy at Gamesworkshop: Bowie who plays Tau and is the definition of a douchenozzle is it?

He seems to change it around every couple games. He's played them with nothing, but he ran interceptor (without informing me) when I tried to counter it with deathwing. I know he's also given them feel no pain before, or whatever lets him reroll his nova charge. Sorry, I'm not too familiar with Tau to begin with, so not sure what all else.

Edit: Is it fire-caste pilot or something like that?

OP, you can't ask him to take a sub-optimal list, the riptide is the Tau's best unit so you can't expect them not to use it.

This is the argument put forward by every GK player when you try to get them to not spam dreadknights, so why aren't Tau allowed to do the same?

If my math serves me, you'll need 7 Black knights rapid firing to reliably take down a single riptide (without an over charged shield) in the shooting phase. I'm not fond of assaulting a riptide with units that don't have an invuln save.

The thing is, our grey knight player says he'll never run more than one in a small game, and never in a 500 point. It's the same way I won't run deathwing knights in a 500 point, which are arguably one of my best units. Especially since some of our players don't have a lot of money and can't afford the big models, they only play with the cheapest stuff or what they can get cheap from friends, we never run anything crazy against them. Our ork player has nothing but boys, grots, and some koptas, so I'm not going to run something like a land raider or a ton of terminators.

Riptide -180
+ Interceptor-5
+ FNP-35

= 220 pts


SM Bike squad-63
+2 Gravguns-30
+1 Combi Grav -10

103

So for 206 points you can take 2 base units of Bikes and get 9 shots that wound on 2+ that are AP2 per unit. So in 1 round you have 18 shots, 12 will hit, 10 will wound and he will save about 3-4. Thats a dead Riptide on Turn 1.

Go have some fun with Rad Grenades and a Orbital Bombardment for more fun at higher points too.

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, I suppose a compromise is in order.

If you ask him to keep his lists somewhat reasonable, but still including riptides, then you can up the power level of your lists if you still wish to play him, assuming he's a decent guy otherwise.

He doesn't sound like a "decent guy otherwise." We had this problem with a local Necron player. He insisted on bringing a Trancendent C'tan with the D-Flamer and the 40-milliond6 shot powers and two Night Scythes at 1500 points. And he was a jerk. We played with him a couple of times until the above observations became well known in our group and then we...just stopped playing with him.

Tell the ork player at 1000 points to bring a green tide. 100 orks , the riptides will not have enough shooting.

 kingbobbito wrote:
Sorry, I'm not too familiar with Tau to begin with, so not sure what all else.

Oh boy

I would highly suggest you ask to borrow his books and read through em both (90% sure he is using far sight enclave.)

Better to be on the safe side and not get taken advantage of. as well i would high suggest you guys use written lists for no fudgecicles.

He runs mass broadside against the ork player, instead of being decent and using the same list against everyone (like the rest of us do). We are considering starting a "tournament"-ish thing so that for the next month or two you'll have to use the same list against everyone. That should sort some stuff out. And if it is just 500 points we'll definitely put in rules about max wounds and max AV.

I'll definitely borrow the store copy for Tau now that you mention it, he does have written lists made up most of the time but I've never actually read if everything is accurate and what gives what rules. I'm a nice person sadly, and wouldn't consider that someone would cheat me like that. I always start by explaining what equipment everyone has and what it does if they've never played against Dark Angels.

So he list taylors aswell..

Looking through the codex is eye-opening. I couldn't believe it when I first did.

"Oh, so ignore cover, tank hunter, skyfire, interceptor cost you how much?"

"Sixty points to put all those buffs on whatever you want? How nice for you..."

Belac Ynnead wrote:
Looking through the codex is eye-opening. I couldn't believe it when I first did.

"Oh, so ignore cover, tank hunter, skyfire, interceptor cost you how much?"

"Sixty points to put all those buffs on whatever you want? How nice for you..."

Not quite, if you were putting all that on the buffmander, the VT and EWO don't apply to other models, so that is 25 for each model who wants to use both.
PENchip is limited to one per detachment (and debated on if it works on Deep Strike).

Not saying it isn't good, but the cost does go up quickly.

For your "That Guy", definitely stop him from using the experimental rules for the R'varna and Y'vahra, those are only meant to be used in good faith.

Try and force him to play objectives and get a lot of LoS blocking terrain so he can't gun down your armies from range. The Riptides can only move 6" to setup their shots so their mobility isn't nearly as good as the Y'Vahra, they will still use the 2d6 JSJ to setup for next turn, but you will still have time to move to more cover before the shot comes in. Again, play to objectives so he may win the battle, but lose the war since Riptide's can't secure objectives and at best tar pit themselves to keep you from controlling it. You will need to watch out if he uses the Riptide's 4d6 Nova JSJ move to get in position in the assault phase, but that also means his guns or shield wont be Nova Charged.

For killing the Riptide, my signature says it all, it is not simple. Many times I kill my own Riptides with failed Nova rolls. The thing that normally stops my Riptides 'dead' is an assault unit or a tar pit unit who just holds it there for the rest of the game. Even with the high Strength and AP 2 it just can't get enough hits to kill them all and Tau doesn't like to go into CC to help. If he does get ballsy and send in another Riptide to help, that just means you get to tie up another Riptide with a single unit.

I was exaggerating a little bit. But not that much, and that's kind of the point. Tau rock.

 Nilok wrote:

Try and force him to play objectives and get a lot of LoS blocking terrain so he can't gun down your armies from range. The Riptides can only move 6" to setup their shots so their mobility isn't nearly as good as the Y'Vahra and also play to objectives so he may win the battle, but lose the war.

You will need to watch out if he uses the Riptide's 4d6 Nova JSJ move to get in position in the assault phase, but that also means his guns or shield wont be Nova Charged.

I think this is good advice. I play a foot-dar list with 7 bright lances in it, and even I think that warhammer just gets better with each piece of LoS blocking terrain that gets put on the table. It makes the game more tactical. There's nothing more boring than planet q-ball.

Belac Ynnead wrote:
I was exaggerating a little bit. But not that much, and that's kind of the point. Tau rock.

 Nilok wrote:

Try and force him to play objectives and get a lot of LoS blocking terrain so he can't gun down your armies from range. The Riptides can only move 6" to setup their shots so their mobility isn't nearly as good as the Y'Vahra and also play to objectives so he may win the battle, but lose the war.

You will need to watch out if he uses the Riptide's 4d6 Nova JSJ move to get in position in the assault phase, but that also means his guns or shield wont be Nova Charged.

I think this is good advice. I play a foot-dar list with 7 bright lances in it, and even I think that warhammer just gets better with each piece of LoS blocking terrain that gets put on the table. It makes the game more tactical. There's nothing more boring than planet q-ball.

Indeed, an awesome table is as important as the armies and the game. If it looks awesome, even losing isn't as bad.

Also, if he tries to go for a lower terrain density (somehow) or complains about it, try and have the tables setup before people arrive so it looks cool, but also has a lot of blocking and tell everyone that you are not doing random terrain allocation and instead you just roll for table deployment/edge.

Don't play with this kid.

whining aside, the issue is that the meta just doesn't want this level of... well lets call it what it is: a total lack of imagination on this dudes part.

So you gotta' ALL have a little meeting and say look: goal of this intervention is to keep playing with you. That outcome cant happen if we dont have a gentlemans agreement that we limit the MC's.

The laternative is you allow us to play your army against you and then we flip flop armies. That way we ALL get a turn with them.

Dude won't abide? Don't play him.

You want to play a certain way and he doesn't/ won't? Don't play him.

You've already spoken to him and he's not listening or doesn't care? Don't play him.

Dude's generally a jerk? Don't play him.

But always be polite about it.

wh40k is rock-paper-scissors and he keeps bringing all rock.
You have the right to not play with him. You're playing for fun and he isn't fun to play with.

Alternatively, bring all paper (which requires money), and expect to get whined hypocritically for tailoring your list. Riptides are an anti-elite, non-invul save unit...

Guard: Spam sniper rifles on Guardsman command squads and special weapons squads. Drown him in a blob of spread out conscripts.

Marines: drop podding large tactical squad with grav, combi-grav, and librarian. Or this grav star people are talking about but which I haven't seen. I don't favor that one because centurions rely on 2+ saves and Riptides are geared to handle that.

Orcs: 6 gretchin squads cost about 240, right? Add big gunz? Ork players, give me a hand.

Just want to point this out the new Riptide the Y'Vahra is not as strong as the regular one due to its such short range and to be honest if anyone told me I couldn't use it then I would not play them. I play in a pretty competitive environment and the usual thing I've noticed with it is that I usually get one or two shooting turns with it before it is killed, its not OP in the slightest and neither is the regular Riptide. if he is fielding one of them at 500 points that is almost 50% of his army in one model, focus on the rest of his army and chances are you will win most of the time.

That being said I definitely don't agree with him changing his list to tailor it to his opponents that should be called out on and corrected. However in regards to him wanted to field riptides guess what people have a right to play with the models they want to. Personally I love the Riptide model and variance because I grew up watching Gundam Anime and mech suits have always fascinated me. as mentioned your best bet would be to talk to him, everyone else in your group step their game up and take stronger lists or let him know that if he doesn't change it up then you may want to inform him that he may have trouble getting games in the future.

In a group where people want to play the models they want to play and don't own models that are an answer to every optimized force, you can't have one person who will pick lists just to win.

Either they have to adjust their list to the group dynamic, or find a better match for their play priorities.

Also, in response to a couple of the posts, someone who just plays max Riptides every game is neither a good 40k player or a good wargamer. Against someone who IS a good 40k player who has a full and varied set of tools at their disposal, anyone who doesn't know how to do anything other than spam superheavies will pretty much lose every game.

One must be willing to give a little in list design for the goodwill factor. There si a social contract. At tournaments, bets are off. But even there, some unscupulous sorts will tank sportsmanship if you bring something they didnt like. Sad but true.

Watching Tau players say Riptides aren't overpowered because they lose them in 1-2 turns is like watching grandma declare global warming is a hoax because there was more rain than usual this month

Oddly enough in both cases its always both exaggerated and in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary as well, which is why they don't give well founded or in detail reasoning to their claims

Playing a boring cheesy list is the lesser problem... but it seems he is an ashole... just stop playing him. Never indulge people with bad sportsmanship.

Just either:
A. Stop playing with him
B. Ask him to stop spamming Riptides
C. Play Tau and spam Riptides

Seriously, I'm surprised anyone actually plays with him. He sounds like a try hard. If you want to try to beat him, try using Lascannon devastators or Grav Cannon Centurion Devastators.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Watching Tau players say Riptides aren't overpowered because they lose them in 1-2 turns is like watching grandma declare global warming is a hoax because there was more rain than usual this month

Oddly enough in both cases its always both exaggerated and in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary as well, which is why they don't give well founded or in detail reasoning to their claims

The same can be said for people who complain they are completely overpowered, especially when there are plenty weapons, units and abilities that counter them very well. If you don't prepare for them properly then its your fault, not the tau player.

So there is a lot of drifting off tactics in this thread, but since you posted it in the tactics forum, I'm going to give you my take on all of this.

I play all Xenos. I've played Tau and Necrons in tournaments and leagues.

Firstly, the advice that I think you have been given which is very bad:

Take AV13/14 ad wait it out. Landraiders are overcosted. His Y'Vahra will eat them for breakfast.

Just play for tactical objectives and ignore the riptides. Riptides are super mobile monstrous creatures. They will come to the objectives and kill units that are ill equipped to deal with them and SCORE because this is 7th edition 40k.

Spam lascannons. Lascannons in bulk enough to kill a riptide becomes expensive and usually sits on a platform that a riptide can kill with ease. They are useful as a support in dealing with Riptides, but their main job is anti tank. By the way, someone said that riptides don't have invulnerable saves. They have a 5++ which can be boosted to 3++ with Nova Charge.

Take fliers. He is runnning a Farsight enclave list probably with Firebase Support Cadre Broadsides too. So he has Earthcaste Pilot Array Riptide with Heavy Burst Cannon. Quite possibly Velocity Tracker and Interceptor (Early Warning Override). He will kill any flier before it shoots. Especially if he is list tailoring and you are bringing a flier.

Good advice you have been given:

GRAVITRON WEAPONARY! Grav guns are amazing against Riptides (and Broadsides for that matter). They rip through them like butter. If you want to buy your way to victory, buy two grav sqauads of bikers and ally them in. Kill a riptide a turn with each.

Leadership based psychic powers, especially stacked up. Terrify, then psychic shriek, for instance. Nasty.

Any initiative based attack. Back in the days of Jaws of The World Wolf Riptides fell en masse.

Combat units with rending or ap1/2 weaponary. Riptides are TERRIBLE at fighting compared to most optimised combat units. Yes, they have AP2 close combat attacks, but they have terrible initiative and bad WS. And that low initiative makes them very easy to SWEEP. Things that will chew through riptides in combat: Canoptek Wraiths, bikey guys with hammers and shields, Thunderwolf Cavalry (these guys with the correct HQ in the unit will eat all the riptides shooting and then munch the entire army one by one, they also have a relic that causes fear in monstrous creatures for added LOLs), Dreadknights, Wriathknights, Imperial Knights (of any variety), Daemon Princes, Screamers, Beastpacks, Death Company, Seercouncil, Mind Shackle Scarabs on either a Destroyer Lord or a CCB Overlord.

Rending weapons. Especially high strength (Sicaran for instance). Poison/Sniper Weaponry when taken in enough bulk to force saves through weight of fire.

The most important weapon that you can bring to any game though is knowledge of your opponent. It sounds like you have played him quite a lot without being clear about what is in his list or what the units in his army do. Don't play ANYONE without knowing at least what the units in the army are and do and what upgrades everything has taken and what special rules those upgrades grant, but the BEST thing you can possibly do is read the codex and understand everything.

Running three riptides and three Y'Vharas costs a minimum of 1,245pts without any HQ or Troop choices. Y'Vharas are 230 points each. I love my Tau army and Jump Shoot Jump games are fun. But that thing is overcosted and relies on being very close to your enemy. The rules are on forgeworld. Go and have a look. Make sure he is playing by them. The Feel No Pain upgrade (Stim Injector) costs 35 points. Putting it on 3 riptides costs over a hundred points.

Make sure you see his list. Understand his list.

Novareactors in a 6 riptide army should be causing two unsaveable wounds every turn. Is he remembering to apply these wounds? He can reroll on the one with the Earthcaste Pilot Array (as long as he has paid the 30pts for the upgrade and the 3 crisis suit tax for the Farsight Enclave army) but the others don't get any save at all.

40k is, despite what some people say, a very complicated ruleset. Not least of all because it is constantly evolving. Like EVERY WEEK at the moment. You have to play with people that you trust to be straight about there own rules. But you also need to give yourself the best chance by reading as many of the rules as possible and seeing ways to counter other armies.

Good luck and happy hunting.

In my opinion, in a good casual and friendly game, it is the opponents job to inform about his army. Discuss tactics openly and give each other hints. If not before the action, after. "You could have done this" and by iterations you improve. This is a better way to develop skills and it makes for a much nicer friendly gaming environment. I know a lot of people will think this is dumb, but since I don't play ANY game to win, only for good company and a few laughs this is the only way to go for me. We have a few cheesers at our club but no one plays them, thus they got tired of 40k. Problem solved.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Watching Tau players say Riptides aren't overpowered because they lose them in 1-2 turns is like watching grandma declare global warming is a hoax because there was more rain than usual this month

Oddly enough in both cases its always both exaggerated and in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary as well, which is why they don't give well founded or in detail reasoning to their claims

The same can be said for people who complain they are completely overpowered, especially when there are plenty weapons, units and abilities that counter them very well. If you don't prepare for them properly then its your fault[, not the tau player.

Another vague handwave dismissal response unsubstantiated by evidence or analysis, oh boy

-I'm not claiming they're "completely" overpowered. They're just that much overpowered that it is an issue.

-"Plenty of weapons bla bla bla" is the biggest load of toot I've read all day. Weapons that can effectively and realistically kill Riptides, that are actually worth taking anyway or otherwise, are mindnumbingly limited. "Plenty" would be the word to use for weapons that deal with vehicles. I'm not saying Riptide spam is unbeatable, but when your list has to be ridiculously constrained to the same format or two every single time to stand a chance against a Riptide spam list, and when the actual points value of the model is ridiculously undercosted, the Riptide is overpowered.

-"Prepare properly" is a terrible "L2P" spitball retort , and for the love of christ people should stop using without clear and direct evidence (like a list) warranting it.

I'll sit and wait for your evidence to support your claims.

There is a list of stuff above, Mr Omega. Its tricky because the assumption is that a take all comers list will have things that can deal with Monstrous Creatures the same as fliers, hordes, high AV and all of the other scissors, paper, stone options. One way of being hard to beat at 40k is to take a list that contains so many of these one elements that it becomes overwhelming for a TAC list to deal with.

Riptide spam
Wave Serpent spam
Flier Spam
Flying monstrous creature spam

Yet none of these are tournament winning lists at the moment. A good Imperial Army utilising the allies table effectively will be able to deal with any of these options. A straightforward, no-combo HQ, 3 troops, 2 heavy support dull list will not.

The reason that Tau players are saying that Riptides aren't overpowered is because no one has been winning at tournaments with Riptide spam for the last year. Certainly not in seventh.

Grav centurions, grav bikers and melta drop pod lists are very, very powerful against this army (even with all the EWO) and Imperial Psychers can wreck it too.

And imperial psychers are EVEN MORE POWERFUL away from tournaments. Because they have great access to Invisibility, which negates almost all of the worrying aspects of any Tau army, as well as psychic shriek, which will deplete Riptides all day long.

There are now plenty of specific ways offered up in this thread for dealing with Riptides.