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If you play SM try to alpha strike the riptide (command squad with bikes and grav guns and khan for scout, Sternguard bomb, legion of the damned, or even grav cents in a drop pod). The damned things are allusive little gaks so you'll have to end it in one or at most two phases. If he has multiple ones work on each one at a time and work your way down. Make sure you guys play bound too to avoide a lot of cheese if you aren't. Other than that try different units and tactics. Or answer back with screamer star etc. By the way your Ork friend doesn't have an army that's competative :/ I played orks and anything not fluffy sucks. You could just be honest and tell him to stop or put a sanction on playing him until he stops or leaves. This is a game at the end of the day, so it's a source of entertainment and not a crazy power gaming situation that sounds like what you are in. Best of luck!

 kingbobbito wrote:
......, but his only response is that we don't like losing.?

Your missing the simple and obvious answer. Just dont play him. And if he asks why, tell him its because hes being a jackass. He will keep acting like that as long as anyone plays him. If no one plays him, then he will either have to change his attitude or go somewhere else.

Just to clarify, when you spoke to him, what did you ask in particular?

Not to include Riptides at all, or to limit them in some capacity?

If the former, he has every right to refuse, as asking someone not to use a model they like is fairly ridiculous. If the latter, then you three options. The first being to keep playing him and lose. The second is to up your own game and list and compete closer to what he seems to enjoy. The third is to not play him at all.

Its gakky, but I suppose these things are bound to happen in a game as well balanced as 40k.

Honestly trying to kill the Riptide is playing to its strengths. Take out markerlights, put something in melee with it, and/or grab objectives and stay out of LoS.

If he's hanging way back, put more terrain on the board that's big enough to hide smaller units. If you play with a pretty clear board the Riptide will seem a lot tougher. With terrain you can force him to come forward if he wants to get a better angle.

Tau are good at many things, but most of all they are good at melting point-concentrated units, like LR, MC, Kitted out squads.

When you play against Tau you need 2 of 3 things to succeed

1. Redundancy; never take one of something and have it be even remotely close to the backbone of your strategy or even as a finesse touch. Make sure that unit has a backup, Got a single bike squad? Get three more. Only one Dev. Squad? Get another and deploy it on the other side of the board. One Dreadknight? Take two, at least one will make it into combat with the Riptide.

2. Speed; Foot-slogging is a no-no, for obvious reasons, the superior range and extra shots it will get will wear you down as the walk backwards. If you have Rhinos, accept the fact they WILL get popped after their 18 inch move. Drop pods? Be prepared to lose some if Interceptor is a thing (Redundancy remember? Should have been three pod squads). Jump-N-Shoot can be annoying if he can always get out of LoS. Bikers are naturally fast, tough, and shooty; they are a great unit.

3. Power; whether it be Weight of fire or High STR low AP, you have to assign the right targets to the right units. Yea 10 bolter shots won't drop it, but 4-combi grav or melta? It is gonna be hurtin. Even two autocannons a turn will be taking a wound off a turn. Or hell if you got the speed, which if you are a biker you do, get into assault and rip him a new one with Smashfucker.

SM Bikes got everything they need to kick a riptide down. Just remember though, if you can't take it down in one turn, don't bother with it, because if the entire army shoots it and it still lives? You will not have reduced the enemy strength at all. GK vs Tau tends to go at a rather fast pace... turn 3 tends to spell out how the game will end barring lucky maelstrom cards. SM Bikes have the ability to choose how they engage, make sure you are playing on a field with LoS Blockers he can't shoot what he can't see.

We really do need it keep reiterating that playing the mission is the way to beat cheese tau.

AP2 only gets you so far if it doesn't ignore cover.

At best he will have the riptide, 2 troops, possibiily pathfinders or a markmander. of which he wont be able to attach to the riptide anymore.

a few decent shots with a TFC or Whirlwind will do the trick. OR drop pod an ironclad with double heavy flamers (if DA has that) will reduce his ability to ignore cover significantly.

That and if he is really tailoring try borrowing a friend army that is way different from DA then call him out when he taks nothing but plasmas

that kinda crap needs to be stiffiled ASAP.

From my experience as footslogging ork player - ignore riptides, use blos as much as possible to hide from broadsides. And spread out. They're not unbeatable. But some decent ammount of los blocking terrain in the middle of the board always make games more interesting and in this case, fair.

 doktor_g wrote:
Anything causing a leadership test.
Play to the mission. (Consider all Maelstrom)
Tau are weak vs Psychers
Daemon spawn.
Kill markerlithgts.
Kill troops.


Have your ork player start playing mega cheeze at 1000 pts
Mek
2xGrots
Stompa

Have your eldar player spam wraithknights. bring a revnant titan. Run a seer council.

Use invisibility.

Centurion star with grav guns

Grey knights with force

Dark Eldar w Eldar allies deep strike wraith guard without scatter.

This sounds like one of those "fighting fire with fire just ends up with the house burnt down" things. If his group is a bunch of have-fun casual players, they should stick to what they enjoy. Just tell Riptides'r'us guy that he's not what any of you are looking for in a game, and he should look for a more competitive-minded group.

You could alter their stats too. Not to make the guy's money and effort lost completely. Make it more reasonable. Say, upthe cost or something. If you absolutely can't figure a way to deal with it. But mind you, they're not an auto-win thing. Riptides rely on markers to do some real damage. Otherwise, they're plain avoidable. Especially with orks. They just can't kill enough of the green guyz. What? 4-5 dead orks per turn from a riptide? Yep, kill 30-points worth per turn with your 200 pts monster.

Interceptor is useful, but it doesnt benefit from Markerlights and it can be overloaded.

Just limit him to 1MC per 500 points. I think thats a reasonable request if that's the kinda meta you have.

BTW, Rad Grenades are also pretty cool against Riptides. They can be gotten through Codex: Inquisition allies. They lower toughness for a round which makes instant killing them with SATR 10 more possible. Just a thought also.

 Jancoran wrote:
Interceptor is useful, but it doesnt benefit from Markerlights and it can be overloaded.

Just limit him to 1MC per 500 points. I think thats a reasonable request if that's the kinda meta you have.

BTW, Rad Grenades are also pretty cool against Riptides. They can be gotten through Codex: Inquisition allies. They lower toughness for a round which makes instant killing them with SATR 10 more possible. Just a thought also.

Running as many Riptides as possible is a blunder. Let him make that mistake and then learn how to exploit that blunder.

I dunno...

If you're playing casually, what about a handicap?
Lets say Orks +20% points. CSM +15%. Eldar +0%.

Or just have WAAC days and casual days.

I've also found public ridicule works....

What missions are you playing ? If not playing Maelstrom, play these and play the mission rather than the Riptides.

kingbobbito wrote:The few wins I had were due to him underestimating my librarian, and all he did was complain for the rest of the night about me being terrible at the game.

kingbobbito wrote:I already tried talking to him about it, ... but his only response is that we don't like losing.

It takes a real asshat to call someone terrible at a game after losing to them.
He clearly isn't playing the same game you and your group are playing. You were having fun before him, have fun without him.
Otherwise, introduce him to a new game. It involves socks, soap, and a dark night in the parking lot. I'm sure you can guess the rules.

There are many counters to riptides, with some armies possessing more than others.

However this is not the issue here.

3 riptides at 1000 points is a little excessive, but not unbeatable. Fielding 7 though will ruin the game for some people.

If spamming is becoming an issue , then introducing some houserules like highlander might help.

Riptides are that bad, just spam plasma. I don't see how its any different to spam dreadknights as how often do you see only one? Not very often, they're always taken in pairs or triples so why can't riptides betaken that way too?

 kingbobbito wrote:
I already tried talking to him about it, saying that no one is really building a tournament list, that some of our guys only run models that they can afford, etc etc, that don't you think it's a bit much in a 500 point, but his only response is that we don't like losing.

Really, the issue isn't losing, it's more of a sportsmanship thing. With the rest of us it's a "May the best man win" scenario, we never build armies that are designed to take on one specific race (against the ork player he runs max broadsides), and throw in the fact that he trash talks. Losing is one thing, but he's just trying to piss us off now.

I will look at buying some drop pods I guess. I've currently got around 1500, soon to be 2000 (once I paint a nephilim and black knights from the new expansion GW released), so I figure they'd be a good addition soon anyways. I do wonder, if he takes interceptor on it will the pods still be effective?

Welcome to your first TFG experience. The best part about them, though, is you can just not play against them. If he asks you for a game, very politely refuse a game. If he calls you names for refusing a game, just politely let him know that he is looking for a different game experience than you are and walk away.

He's got a winner complex. He doesn't want a challenge, all he wants is another victory tally. Some people are into that, but that doesn't mean you have to be.

If you must insist on playing with him for some masochistic reason, get your pals together and offer a 2v2 game. Maybe working with a partner will open his mind a bit. Most likely he'll just berate his teammate for poor play and piss them off though.

You have a few options -

1. Refuse to play him and get everyone else to refuse to play him. He'll either change or leave.

2. Go WAAC to defeat him and get everyone else to do the same. Might be harder to implement, but if you guys start stomping him all the time he might get the message.

3. Troll tactic. Get everyone to worship him. Fawn over his every move, "What a masterful strategy!" etc. Drip everything with sarcasm. When he wins simply say stuff like, "Who could stand in the way of a God like you?".
After a few days like that, he's going to annoyed as hell.

 Otto Weston wrote:
You have a few options -

1. Refuse to play him and get everyone else to refuse to play him. He'll either change or leave.

2. Go WAAC to defeat him and get everyone else to do the same. Might be harder to implement, but if you guys start stomping him all the time he might get the message.

3. Troll tactic. Get everyone to worship him. Fawn over his every move, "What a masterful strategy!" etc. Drip everything with sarcasm. When he wins simply say stuff like, "Who could stand in the way of a God like you?".
After a few days like that, he's going to annoyed as hell.

LOL number 3 is so good.

 Farseer Pef wrote:

Otherwise, introduce him to a new game. It involves socks, soap, and a dark night in the parking lot. I'm sure you can guess the rules.

Go unbound.

 Otto Weston wrote:
You have a few options -

1. Refuse to play him and get everyone else to refuse to play him. He'll either change or leave.

2. Go WAAC to defeat him and get everyone else to do the same. Might be harder to implement, but if you guys start stomping him all the time he might get the message.

3. Troll tactic. Get everyone to worship him. Fawn over his every move, "What a masterful strategy!" etc. Drip everything with sarcasm. When he wins simply say stuff like, "Who could stand in the way of a God like you?".
After a few days like that, he's going to annoyed as hell.

I like number three. I will be using that against TFG at my gaming club

You can also swap armies once in a while.

 kingbobbito wrote:
I already tried talking to him about it, saying that no one is really building a tournament list, that some of our guys only run models that they can afford, etc etc, that don't you think it's a bit much in a 500 point, but his only response is that we don't like losing.

Really, the issue isn't losing, it's more of a sportsmanship thing. With the rest of us it's a "May the best man win" scenario, we never build armies that are designed to take on one specific race (against the ork player he runs max broadsides), and throw in the fact that he trash talks. Losing is one thing, but he's just trying to piss us off now.

I will look at buying some drop pods I guess. I've currently got around 1500, soon to be 2000 (once I paint a nephilim and black knights from the new expansion GW released), so I figure they'd be a good addition soon anyways. I do wonder, if he takes interceptor on it will the pods still be effective?

Then your group should either ignore his attempts to play with it or go to his level (in list building, not behavior). As pointed out by others, he got a winner complex.

Use nothing but troops inside AV14. Wait until the final round and take the objectives. Anything not in AV14 put in drop pods with plasma or grav weapons.

My current Legion list would have a ball with this. Enough terminators and assault vehicles to brighten his day and enough long range support in improved cover to really make him question his list design. Then there is the superheavy. I think my wraith heavy elder would have a good time too, mass D and Distort weapons for the win.

Due to what you said about casual group with one a-hole that wants to cheese out, the best advice is to ignore the guy and just not play him. Is he 12?

 Thud wrote:
You basically have three options.

1. Don't play him.
You don't have to spend your hobby time doing things you don't enjoy.

2. Realize that losing games is, in fact, not the end of the world.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you refuse to run good lists and improve your tactics, you will lose games. Go with whatever you'd rather do.

3. Get better at 40k.
You don't need netlists or cheese or whatever term you use to describe things you don't like. You just need tactics and a realistic view on what Riptides can achieve and how they achieve it. Don't panic just because your opponent has more than one of something the internet tells you is totes OP. Unsupported they are pretty unimpressive. So, destroy the supporting units. And, having the tools in your list to deal with MCs does not make your list douchey. Y'vahras, by the way, are not OP. They have fewer wounds than regular Riptides and need to be in places Tau players don't really like being. And then you can kill them.

I might come across a bit biased in presenting the options, but for the record; all of these options are perfectly valid.

I'll just reply to this post in particular because almost every other post can basically be summarised as 1)

If you refuse to run good lists and improve your tactics, you will lose games. Go with whatever you'd rather do.

Your core point here to run harder lists if willing is fine and I agree, but for perspective:

Reducing your army list's variation by tailoring it to Riptide counters is the dumbest, most fun destroying thing I've ever had to do in 40k. Being forced to field 2-3 Dev Squads with Lascannons, or spam flyers, or take far less of what I want to bring with me sucks. Even when I'm playing competitively, I always vary my lists so each game I play is different, but with Riptides in consideration every single list I make for my IG and SM has the same starting format.

Suggesting the idea that this guy just can't take losing is poor and I feel bile rise in my throat every time I see someone aligned to competitive play stereotype a struggling friendly player that way; if you play Riptides with a list that isn't heavily tailored to them, your chances of winning drop through the floor, and sometimes they become practically non-existent if your opponent's luck isn't terrible. Playing a game you know you've lost before you've begun, or into the first turn, sucks, isn't fun, and is frankly depressing. Watching your lines of Marines fight across the board with Orks is always great fun, but being obliterated by overpowered models on the other side of the board you have no hope in hell of killing isn't.

Get better at 40k.

No. No, no, no, no. Putting it simply ; "L2P" is never an acceptable response to a tactics thread.

And yes, there's the usual chorus of bs about targeting everything else or not dying to multiple turns of basically infinite range, near infinite LOS S8 AP2 large blasts. Yeah, sure, Sun Tzu.

If I had to give you two options, they'd be these:

1) If you're willing to play competitively and drop pretense of fluff and theme to beat this guy, do it. You'll want Sternguard/Command Squads/Bikers/Flyers (Storm Raven in particular) and Lascannon Devastators. They're your best shot.

2) If you don't want to expand your army to do 1), or or don't want to play competitively etc etc, don't challenge him to a game and tell him you'd prefer a more toned down game, and tell him your conditions for playing politely.

Outside of 40k he is a decent guy, and I'll always feel bad for pushing away someone that like 40k. Maybe over the next months I'll add some more competitive aspects to my list, but for the time being I think I'll try to talk him into playing something other than riptide spam.

I'll try again to talk him into just running one riptide at 1000 points (which I'm fine with, one is quite easy to ignore / deal with). 500 I'll definitely ask no riptide. In the meantime, if he does refuse those ideas, I think I'll ask him for a nice friendly game of kill team (200 points, each model is a unit for those that haven't played it).

 kingbobbito wrote:
...and all he did was complain for the rest of the night about me being terrible at the game. For once I am legitimately pissed at someone.

I wouldn't play him anymore, not because of his lists, but because of what I quoted from the OP. I'm not going to stand across the table from someone for any length of time after they prove to me that they have horrible social skills. It's just not worth it...

Honestly, you can just try and play objectives, but that definitely puts you on your back heels if he has any markerlight support.

Assuming he has no markerlight support, playing objectives becomes vastly easier, and it is quite difficult to fit that and a riptide in 500 points. My suggestion would possibly be a squad of grav gun bikers. At 1000 points add in a shield eternal guy, and you can rock a riptide easily.

As an Eldar player, I would simply just counter with a wraithknight :p.

I'm assembling a squad of black knights at the moment, so I figure 3 twin-linked plasma should do a good bit of damage. If not, we have hammers with rending.

Bobbito, what does he use on his Riptides at 500 points ? Are they base Riptides or do they have upgrades?