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I'll start by saying that our meta is extremely casual, none of us are particularly great, and I can honestly say there is no cheese. As a result none of us are really sure what to do now that someone is going all in to win. He currently has 7 Riptides (three standard, one for farsight, and three Forgeworld Y'varhas). We're considering banning the Y'varhas, because at the moment they are in the experimental stage, but even then he'd run as many of the standard as possible. 500 point game? 1 Riptide. 1000 points, three Riptides. Our main Ork player is getting absolutely wrecked and is considering leaving the game for a few months, I've got a really casual, fluffy dark angels list and keep getting absolutely rolled over.

What can I do to deal with a Riptide at 500 points? I have a chance with my librarian (psychic shriek), but he stands in the far back corners, and psychic shriek is far from reliable. Lascannon squads are dead by turn 2, and the jet movements make it easy for him to stay in cover.

Alternatively, what about at 1000? Terminators are too slow to get into melee, and he has interceptor on all of them. At this point my dev squads get absolutely obliterated, and a librarian is his first target.

Better question, is it worth even playing him? The few wins I had were due to him underestimating my librarian, and all he did was complain for the rest of the night about me being terrible at the game. For once I am legitimately pissed at someone.

Its probably easier to just refuse to play him until he stops spamming riptides

I'd say stop playing him and explain it's not fun for you.

You could try using more competitive lists yourselves but that doesn't do it for you just opt not to play against him. Especially if you have an established group that doesn't like playing that way.

Sorry I just had to respond after seeing the following two threads like this.

- What is the best way to equip triptides?
- Too Many Riptides....

Just made me laugh.

at 500 points he shouldn't have many troops.

Pop em and the markerlights asap then make love to the ground and take cover on an objective the rest of the game

Same with 1000 points.

Stop playing him. If he is the oddball playing this crap then ostracize him until he plays a normal list.

That and in 500 point games, why don't you guys have sensible limits? In my groups, at 500 points, nothing over 2 wounds(exceptions for nids), no 2+ or 2++ saves, no av better than 12 etc. Cuts down on cheese fests and makes sense in the combat patrol that 500 points represents.

As Desubot says.

They are a huge points investment and don't offer a lot of firepower for their points. You mainly pay for durability.

Play to the mission and objectives, take out the support and block line of sight.

I would reccommend just talking to the person and telling them how these max riptide lists are not fun for you to play against (the others should also do the same). If he doesn't do anything then just play with the others and exlude him. Whoever wants to play hi list and him can.

On an alternative note another answer to riptides for DA is melee with their TH/SS termis, plasma talons, melee deathwing knights, or ignore them and use 6 ten man TAC squads w/ rhinos to claim all the objectives. Other helpful options are a number of the forgeworld models can really help, but again this would be ramping up the power level of your group.

Alternatively you could introduce a comp system letting the casual players start with a few void shield generators.

Having him in your gaming group is a potential asset. If you care at all about playing at a competitive level then playing him is invaluable to your goal.

Potentially you could take up the challenge and play 40k the hard way instead of just splashing around in the kiddie pool.

Its very common for people to have a competitive list and a fluffy list and to simply agree upon one or the other before playing.

Maybe its time you prepared a competitive list?

But sure, if you are adamantly opposed to playing 40k competitively then there winds up being no point in playing this player. It's a missed opportunity though. I think you should take up the challenge. It is really only at the competitive level of play that you find out who the "better" player is ("better" being defined here from a game tactics perspective).

What would you say is a more competitive way of dealing with riptides at a 500 point level is then?

 kingbobbito wrote:
What would you say is a more competitive way of dealing with riptides at a 500 point level is then?

white scars bikes and grav guns

drop pod melta/grav gun also offer some avenues

those allow you to play to the mission and to put the Riptide in assault should you need to


Here is a video to check out

http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/space-marines-vs-tau-warhammer-40k-battle-report-banter-batrep-ep-62

1st suggestion, he has to have permission to use experimental rules. do not give permission. Often FW experimental rules are too good for cost then scaled back to "reasonable" but still better than codex choices.

at 500 pts you pretty much ignore the riptide, or bring something that can tarpit it, ID it, or sniper it off the table.

Kill marker lights first. They're not nearly as scary without ignores cover or boosted BS. Don't target them unless you're absolutely sure you have the means to kill them.

That being said, 3 riptides does not a casual 1000 point list make, so a mixture of talking to him about his lists and playing smart around the riptides is probably the best approach.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Kill marker lights first. They're not nearly as scary without ignores cover or boosted BS. Don't target them unless you're absolutely sure you have the means to kill them.

That being said, 3 riptides does not a casual 1000 point list make, so a mixture of talking to him about his lists and playing smart around the riptides is probably the best approach.

I prefer playing against 3 riptides in a 1000 point list. That many riptides makes the list weaker. 1 riptide + broadsides would be better for Tau.

Maybe, but I still wouldn't call it casual.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Maybe, but I still wouldn't call it casual.

Agreed. But my advice was to prepare a competitive list.

You could also go silly goose and Rad + enfeeble with a power fist

But really Torch out the pathfiders or whatever markerlights they are using, and probably go speedy with some bikes

Go jinking for 4+ saves in the open (possibly better IIRC with wargear or whatever the shroud thing is)

kingbobbito wrote:
Better question, is it worth even playing him? The few wins I had were due to him underestimating my librarian, and all he did was complain for the rest of the night about me being terrible at the game. For once I am legitimately pissed at someone.

Ugh, I missed this part of the OP, somehow. If he's calling you a bad player after you beat him with a casual list, then eesh I don't even see it being worth playing the guy. I know a lot places (my own area for instance) don't necessarily have a large pool of players to draw from, so losing a player (even a WAAC, sore loser) can suck. That being said, I'd have a come-to-jesus talk with the fellow and if that doesn't work forget him.

col_impact wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Maybe, but I still wouldn't call it casual.

Agreed. But my advice was to prepare a competitive list.

Point taken. OP said his group is very casual though. That being said, playing competitively can be just as fun as long as everyone's on the same page.

You basically have three options.

1. Don't play him.
You don't have to spend your hobby time doing things you don't enjoy.

2. Realize that losing games is, in fact, not the end of the world.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you refuse to run good lists and improve your tactics, you will lose games. Go with whatever you'd rather do.

3. Get better at 40k.
You don't need netlists or cheese or whatever term you use to describe things you don't like. You just need tactics and a realistic view on what Riptides can achieve and how they achieve it. Don't panic just because your opponent has more than one of something the internet tells you is totes OP. Unsupported they are pretty unimpressive. So, destroy the supporting units. And, having the tools in your list to deal with MCs does not make your list douchey. Y'vahras, by the way, are not OP. They have fewer wounds than regular Riptides and need to be in places Tau players don't really like being. And then you can kill them.

I might come across a bit biased in presenting the options, but for the record; all of these options are perfectly valid.

 kingbobbito wrote:
What would you say is a more competitive way of dealing with riptides at a 500 point level is then?

Honestly DA are pretty disadvantaged at 1000 pts and less anyways but the major trouble shooting units at low pts levels are;
1) Plasma or melta vets in a drop pod. Veterans are not great most of the time but they do well for a surgical removal of a hard target.
2) Plasma or melta on your ravenwing bikers. This is honestly better in higher point games as ravenwing troops plus sammy to unlock them is expensive.
3) Forgeworld plasma executioner

There are a number of other options but they require higher point games, ravenwing command squads are a good example. Also allies can help a lot.

Alternatively you can kill the rest of the army and ignore the riptide. Without the markerlights it will struggle to meaningfully contribute in an objectives game. That is unless you happen to bring deathwing which will get mulched...except deathwing at below 1000 pts is extremely unbalanced anyways.

BTW you may be tempted to say lascannons and plasma cannons are useful against riptides but unfortunately that is largely not true as you noted they get eliminated before contributing meaningfully and don't have the number of attacks to get through the invulnerable and cover saves the riptide has. Multiple Str 7+ AP2- is what you need to kill a riptide.

Have you tried speaking to him?

 kingbobbito wrote:
I'll start by saying that our meta is extremely casual, none of us are particularly great, and I can honestly say there is no cheese. As a result none of us are really sure what to do now that someone is going all in to win. He currently has 7 Riptides (three standard, one for farsight, and three Forgeworld Y'varhas). We're considering banning the Y'varhas, because at the moment they are in the experimental stage, but even then he'd run as many of the standard as possible. 500 point game? 1 Riptide. 1000 points, three Riptides. Our main Ork player is getting absolutely wrecked and is considering leaving the game for a few months, I've got a really casual, fluffy dark angels list and keep getting absolutely rolled over.

What can I do to deal with a Riptide at 500 points? I have a chance with my librarian (psychic shriek), but he stands in the far back corners, and psychic shriek is far from reliable. Lascannon squads are dead by turn 2, and the jet movements make it easy for him to stay in cover.

Alternatively, what about at 1000? Terminators are too slow to get into melee, and he has interceptor on all of them. At this point my dev squads get absolutely obliterated, and a librarian is his first target.

Better question, is it worth even playing him? The few wins I had were due to him underestimating my librarian, and all he did was complain for the rest of the night about me being terrible at the game. For once I am legitimately pissed at someone.

Well it sounds like your meta is facing an evolution. I don't think not playing him is entirely the right answer because if its a casual environment, then losing should be no big deal (but we all know it is no fun to lose 100% of your games).

At 500 points, instant Death weapons are your best bet against them. In addition, any power that reduces or attacks leadership is worth looking at. 2 5 man squads and all Psykers to battle him with. a Drop pod might help ensure you're in range for it. But at 500 points, a limit of one MC of any kind and no Unbound armies is probably wise.

At 1000 points the options open up. Against this fellow who loves his Riptides, you really need to drop pod. Right on top of him. Gives him EXACTLY one round to do anything about ti and then you wreck him in melee. Riptides cant handle melee. StormShield and Thunderhammers seem to do the trick. A pair of those units and a drop pod for two Psykers, Psychic Shriek one to death, brace for impact and then charge.

Also a 2 MC limit seems advisable at this points value.

None of this guarantees a win nor a loss. But it does guarantee a reasonable game.

Kingbobbito what armies do you have access to ?

Yeah if he asks for a game I'd be like "0-1 riptides."
Those things are so atrociously undercosted, that it's like playing against an army a couple hundred points above yours when 3 of them are taken.

Riptides lost a lot of thear power in 7th. They have no way to get twin linked and ignore cover is difficult.
They become OK when you kill their support.

Anything causing a leadership test.
Play to the mission. (Consider all Maelstrom)
Tau are weak vs Psychers
Daemon spawn.
Kill markerlithgts.
Kill troops.


Have your ork player start playing mega cheeze at 1000 pts
Mek
2xGrots
Stompa

Have your eldar player spam wraithknights. bring a revnant titan. Run a seer council.

Use invisibility.

Centurion star with grav guns

Grey knights with force

Dark Eldar w Eldar allies deep strike wraith guard without scatter.

Talk to the guy. 7 riptides is like bringing 7 of the same best thing in each codex. No casual likes to fight against 7 wave serpents (plus its carriage), 7 screamer stars, 7 full-grav bike command squads, 7 grav-centurion units, 7 Annihilation Barges, etc.

If you guys are interested in amping up your play level, the guy can indirectly hep you (as explained by col_impact and others). If you guys rather a casual atmosphere and just playing for the fun, then the new dude is not a good influence - talk to him (as a group, but not as a threat) that your club rather fun games than all-win ones (not that you can have both in one match, but it'll require both players to be satisfied by this kind of game, which clearly it isn't your case).

I already tried talking to him about it, saying that no one is really building a tournament list, that some of our guys only run models that they can afford, etc etc, that don't you think it's a bit much in a 500 point, but his only response is that we don't like losing.

Really, the issue isn't losing, it's more of a sportsmanship thing. With the rest of us it's a "May the best man win" scenario, we never build armies that are designed to take on one specific race (against the ork player he runs max broadsides), and throw in the fact that he trash talks. Losing is one thing, but he's just trying to piss us off now.

I will look at buying some drop pods I guess. I've currently got around 1500, soon to be 2000 (once I paint a nephilim and black knights from the new expansion GW released), so I figure they'd be a good addition soon anyways. I do wonder, if he takes interceptor on it will the pods still be effective?

Well, I suppose a compromise is in order.

If you ask him to keep his lists somewhat reasonable, but still including riptides, then you can up the power level of your lists if you still wish to play him, assuming he's a decent guy otherwise.