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Except that the BRB constantly refers to the shooting sequence as "firing" So a wording of "to fire the FDR" is obviously in conflict with that sequence. Regardless of this pedantic exercise, RAW is clear that a target is not required.

Fragile wrote:
Except that the BRB constantly refers to the shooting sequence as "firing" So a wording of "to fire the FDR" is obviously in conflict with that sequence. Regardless of this pedantic exercise, RAW is clear that a target is not required.

Again, your assertion that "to fire the FDR" means "instead of the shooting sequence" is nothing more than your house rule. Death Ray itself does not explicitly tell us how to integrate it with the BRB.

If the Death Ray doesn't occur within the Shooting Sequence and isn't selected in the Select a Weapon step, at what point in the game do you have permission to select the Death Ray and fire the weapon?

You seem to be picking and choosing what you want out of the Shooting Sequence while maintaining that Death Ray bails you out of the Shooting Sequence. You contradict your own logic.

Per the rules, Death Ray has to participate in the Shooting Sequence in at least a minimal sense or else it doesn't ever get a chance to fire at all.


It's all fine and dandy for you to pretend that you have RAW support and call this a pedantic exercise that is casually dismissed by you, but that fantasy of yours comes to a crashing halt when you wind up against an Invisi-star player and you can't justify with RAW that you can skip the Choose A Target step. Death Ray rules simply don't give that permission. What permission you think you have is merely a house rule that you bestowed upon yourself and that you have deluded yourself into thinking is RAW. BvA won't work since it requires something in the Death Ray rules that precludes targeting. The only thing you can definitively point to is that Beam is the closest thing in the BRB to the Death Ray and Beam gives explicit permission to follow its own targeting restrictions.

Fragile I think you hit it right on the nose. I run 3 sentry pylons in my necrons sometimes(when forgeworld is allowed) and this is the way we have always played it. You pick your first point then roll 3d6 then choose your second point. You never choose a unit to "target." Then as stated you roll to wound and resolve the wounds. One thing I often run into is people trying to take cover saves based on line of site from the pylon, I feel this is incorrect as sentry pylons ignore steps 2-4 of the standard shooting sequence, but this is another subject and one that is open for debate. The way jink now works is also interesting, you may be able to bypass it entirely which would make these pefect tau or eldar that rely on jink.

Epartalis wrote:
Fragile I think you hit it right on the nose. I run 3 sentry pylons in my necrons sometimes(when forgeworld is allowed) and this is the way we have always played it. You pick your first point then roll 3d6 then choose your second point. You never choose a unit to "target." Then as stated you roll to wound and resolve the wounds. One thing I often run into is people trying to take cover saves based on line of site from the pylon, I feel this is incorrect as sentry pylons ignore steps 2-4 of the standard shooting sequence, but this is another subject and one that is open for debate. The way jink now works is also interesting, you may be able to bypass it entirely which would make these pefect tau or eldar that rely on jink.

Nothing would stop someone from taking a cover save from the Pylon. (Nothing in steps 2-4 address that). Cover saves are taken in step 6 and as nothing states the FDR ignores cover, then you can take a save from it. Jink also requires you to be declared as a target and cannot be used against beams. Which is probably why we see so few of these type of weapons. They are mostly in the Psychic powers which can be DTW.

Without the rule "ignores cover" they would still get their cover saves.

Fragile wrote:

Epartalis wrote:
Fragile I think you hit it right on the nose. I run 3 sentry pylons in my necrons sometimes(when forgeworld is allowed) and this is the way we have always played it. You pick your first point then roll 3d6 then choose your second point. You never choose a unit to "target." Then as stated you roll to wound and resolve the wounds. One thing I often run into is people trying to take cover saves based on line of site from the pylon, I feel this is incorrect as sentry pylons ignore steps 2-4 of the standard shooting sequence, but this is another subject and one that is open for debate. The way jink now works is also interesting, you may be able to bypass it entirely which would make these pefect tau or eldar that rely on jink.

Nothing would stop someone from taking a cover save from the Pylon. (Nothing in steps 2-4 address that). Cover saves are taken in step 6 and as nothing states the FDR ignores cover, then you can take a save from it. Jink also requires you to be declared as a target and cannot be used against beams. Which is probably why we see so few of these type of weapons. They are mostly in the Psychic powers which can be DTW.

If you skip step 3, Select a Weapon, how are you indeed getting a chance to fire the Focused Death Ray?

Assuming you do have to select a target, what would you use as the range of the weapon given that the range is variable? Would you use maximum range assuming an 18 on 3D6?

Is that a rhetorical question, Col?

Kriswall,
I am not going to throw my hat into this one, but I do want to point out that one can technically pick a Target which is out of Range.
It is likely an oversight in the Out of Range Rule though, compare the wording within to Out of Sight for the obvious problem.

Fragile wrote:
Is that a rhetorical question, Col?

Nope, you seem to be freely choosing which steps of the Shooting Sequence to skip or follow without any reference to any rules. In the absence of any actual rules allowing you to skip steps, you seem to be entirely acting on a house rule, is this correct?

I follow the specific instructions in the rule. To fire a FDR you do X. Anything other than that specific set of instructions is a house rule. No where in there is a declaration of a target.

Or in your definition of RAW, I can declare Unit B that is 72" away in LOS to be my target and then draw points 1 and 2 across your Invis Deathstar and kill them.

Fragile wrote:


Or in your definition of RAW, I can declare Unit B that is 72" away in LOS to be my target and then draw points 1 and 2 across your Invis Deathstar and kill them.

Yup, this is correct. All that is required is that there is some legal target somewhere for you to be able to fire the weapon in the first place and from then the Death Ray goes about doing its stuff irrespective of a Target. See my first post in this thread.

Which means targeting is not required.

Fragile wrote:
Which means targeting is not required.

It means you won't be able to fire it if all enemy units are out of LOS, invisible, or locked in CC.

Edit: Actually scratch invisibility off the list. Invisibility does not interact with targeting.

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Epartalis wrote:
Fragile I think you hit it right on the nose. I run 3 sentry pylons in my necrons sometimes(when forgeworld is allowed) and this is the way we have always played it. You pick your first point then roll 3d6 then choose your second point. You never choose a unit to "target." Then as stated you roll to wound and resolve the wounds. One thing I often run into is people trying to take cover saves based on line of site from the pylon, I feel this is incorrect as sentry pylons ignore steps 2-4 of the standard shooting sequence, but this is another subject and one that is open for debate. The way jink now works is also interesting, you may be able to bypass it entirely which would make these pefect tau or eldar that rely on jink.

Nothing would stop someone from taking a cover save from the Pylon. (Nothing in steps 2-4 address that). Cover saves are taken in step 6 and as nothing states the FDR ignores cover, then you can take a save from it. Jink also requires you to be declared as a target and cannot be used against beams. Which is probably why we see so few of these type of weapons. They are mostly in the Psychic powers which can be DTW.

If you skip step 3, Select a Weapon, how are you indeed getting a chance to fire the Focused Death Ray?

Actually I'm skipping all the steps. Firing means to make a shooting attack with. The FDR rules explain how to make a shooting attack with them. Referencing the normal shooting rules without being told to is incorrect.

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Epartalis wrote:
Fragile I think you hit it right on the nose. I run 3 sentry pylons in my necrons sometimes(when forgeworld is allowed) and this is the way we have always played it. You pick your first point then roll 3d6 then choose your second point. You never choose a unit to "target." Then as stated you roll to wound and resolve the wounds. One thing I often run into is people trying to take cover saves based on line of site from the pylon, I feel this is incorrect as sentry pylons ignore steps 2-4 of the standard shooting sequence, but this is another subject and one that is open for debate. The way jink now works is also interesting, you may be able to bypass it entirely which would make these pefect tau or eldar that rely on jink.

Nothing would stop someone from taking a cover save from the Pylon. (Nothing in steps 2-4 address that). Cover saves are taken in step 6 and as nothing states the FDR ignores cover, then you can take a save from it. Jink also requires you to be declared as a target and cannot be used against beams. Which is probably why we see so few of these type of weapons. They are mostly in the Psychic powers which can be DTW.

If you skip step 3, Select a Weapon, how are you indeed getting a chance to fire the Focused Death Ray?

Actually I'm skipping all the steps. Firing means to make a shooting attack with. The FDR rules explain how to make a shooting attack with them. Referencing the normal shooting rules without being told to is incorrect.

Explain at what point in time in the game are you allowed to Select the Weapon and explain how you allocate Wounds. Going entirely rogue and bailing on the Shooting Sequence entirely cause lots of complications.

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Epartalis wrote:
Fragile I think you hit it right on the nose. I run 3 sentry pylons in my necrons sometimes(when forgeworld is allowed) and this is the way we have always played it. You pick your first point then roll 3d6 then choose your second point. You never choose a unit to "target." Then as stated you roll to wound and resolve the wounds. One thing I often run into is people trying to take cover saves based on line of site from the pylon, I feel this is incorrect as sentry pylons ignore steps 2-4 of the standard shooting sequence, but this is another subject and one that is open for debate. The way jink now works is also interesting, you may be able to bypass it entirely which would make these pefect tau or eldar that rely on jink.

Nothing would stop someone from taking a cover save from the Pylon. (Nothing in steps 2-4 address that). Cover saves are taken in step 6 and as nothing states the FDR ignores cover, then you can take a save from it. Jink also requires you to be declared as a target and cannot be used against beams. Which is probably why we see so few of these type of weapons. They are mostly in the Psychic powers which can be DTW.

If you skip step 3, Select a Weapon, how are you indeed getting a chance to fire the Focused Death Ray?

Actually I'm skipping all the steps. Firing means to make a shooting attack with. The FDR rules explain how to make a shooting attack with them. Referencing the normal shooting rules without being told to is incorrect.

Explain at what point in time in the game are you allowed to Select the Weapon and explain how you allocate Wounds. Going entirely rogue and bailing on the Shooting Sequence entirely cause lots of complications.

Selecting a weapon is step 3 in a process I'm not using.
Since I'm making a shooting attack (firing...) I use the rules for allocating wounds as a shooting attack does.

Please, since you asserted there'd be "lots of complications", list them.

If you are not using the Shooting Sequence, point to where in the rules you are otherwise allowed to select and fire the Death Ray.

Also, what rules are you suggesting are then followed for allocating wounds? Where are they in the rule book?

col_impact wrote:
If you are not using the Shooting Sequence, point to where in the rules you are otherwise allowed to select and fire the Death Ray.

The FDR rules - because the rule you're pointing to (step 3) is part of a normal shooting attack, which the FDR isn't. It has it's own rules on how to resolve the attack.

Also, what rules are you suggesting are then followed for allocating wounds? Where are they in the rule book?

Since the FDR rules don't conflict with the wound allocation steps for a normal shooting attack, they'd still apply.

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If you are not using the Shooting Sequence, point to where in the rules you are otherwise allowed to select and fire the Death Ray.

The FDR rules - because the rule you're pointing to (step 3) is part of a normal shooting attack, which the FDR isn't. It has it's own rules on how to resolve the attack.

Also, what rules are you suggesting are then followed for allocating wounds? Where are they in the rule book?

Since the FDR rules don't conflict with the wound allocation steps for a normal shooting attack, they'd still apply.

You seem to be playing your own game. Read the Shooting Phase and note that it is comprised entirely of the Shooting Sequence and you get specific permission therein to Select a Weapon. Are you using the Death Ray in some other phase besides the Shooting Phase? Because,going by what you are trying to do, you simply have no place in the Shooting Phase for your own custom deal unless you are house ruling to do so.




And jumping back into the Shooting Sequence for the Wound allocation is again just picking and choosing what steps you like on a whim and per house rule. The BvA rules only allow you to skip steps that you are precluded from doing.

col_impact wrote:
You seem to be playing your own game. Read the Shooting Phase and note that it is comprised entirely of the Shooting Sequence and you get specific permission therein to Select a Weapon. Are you using the Death Ray in some other phase besides the Shooting Phase? Because,going by what you are trying to do, you simply have no place in the Shooting Phase for your own custom deal unless you are house ruling to do so.

Incredibly weak counter. Firing is done in the shooting phase. Try again.

And jumping back into the Shooting Sequence for the Wound allocation is again just picking and choosing what steps you like on a whim and per house rule. The BvA rules only allow you to skip steps that you are precluded from doing.

This is consistent with all the other examples I showed you. Nothing outside of the BRB here.

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You seem to be playing your own game. Read the Shooting Phase and note that it is comprised entirely of the Shooting Sequence and you get specific permission therein to Select a Weapon. Are you using the Death Ray in some other phase besides the Shooting Phase? Because,going by what you are trying to do, you simply have no place in the Shooting Phase for your own custom deal unless you are house ruling to do so.

Incredibly weak counter. Firing is done in the shooting phase. Try again.

And jumping back into the Shooting Sequence for the Wound allocation is again just picking and choosing what steps you like on a whim and per house rule. The BvA rules only allow you to skip steps that you are precluded from doing.

This is consistent with all the other examples I showed you. Nothing outside of the BRB here.

Rigeld said that he doesn't follow the Shooting Sequence. That's his argument. The problem is that Shooting Phase is comprised solely of the Shooting Sequence. Pick up the rule book and show me where you are going to be shooting your Death Ray if it's not under the umbrella of the Shooting Sequence.

Please indicate clearly how you satisfy the rule below for the unit firing the Death Ray.

You doing the same thing you did in the last thread. Your just copy pasting a reply and not addressing the argument. You have failed to address.

Fragile wrote:
You doing the same thing you did in the last thread. Your just copy pasting a reply and not addressing the argument. You have failed to address.

Spoiler:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

And you are doing the same thing you always do. Ignore the actual rules and make up house rules and pretend that those house rules are in the BRB.

You need to deal with the "contradicting" requirement of the BvA rule.

What about Death Ray rules contradict step 1 (Nominate Unit to Shoot) of the shooting sequence? Nothing
What about Death Ray rules contradict step 2 (Choose a Target) of the shooting sequence? Nothing
What about Death Ray rules contradict step 3 (Select a Weapon)of the shooting sequence? Nothing
What about Death Ray rules contradict step 4 (Roll To Hit) of the shooting sequence? Alternate resolution of hits starting with "To fire the FDR . . ."
What about Death Ray rules contradict step 5 (Roll To Wound) of the shooting sequence? Nothing
What about Death Ray rules contradict step 6 (Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties)of the shooting sequence? Nothing
What about Death Ray rules contradict step 7 (Select Another Weapon) of the shooting sequence? Nothing

BvA only overrides step 4 because the BvA rule requires contradicting instructions in order to override the basic with the more advanced one. Contradicting instructions are instructions that preclude each other.

Your argument -- that interprets "To Fire the FDR" as "Instead of the Shooting Sequence" -- is nothing more than a house rule and you have deluded yourself into thinking that that is not a house rule but rather RAW. Nice fantasy there. But that's not RAW. You just have a house rule.

Your claim that it only overrides step 4 has no rules support. Must be your house rule. Ill stick with the BvA, thanks.

Fragile wrote:
Your claim that it only overrides step 4 has no rules support. Must be your house rule. Ill stick with the BvA, thanks.

Lol. Now you are just being obtuse.

I follow all the steps of the shooting sequence since I have no permission to skip any. BvA allows me to override steps with contradicting instructions. That applies only to step 4. I literally have no choice but to apply BvA in the case of step 4. The BRB makes that choice for me with the BvA rule. My argument is all done per strict RAW.

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You doing the same thing you did in the last thread. Your just copy pasting a reply and not addressing the argument. You have failed to address.

Spoiler:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

And you are doing the same thing you always do. Ignore the actual rules and make up house rules and pretend that those house rules are in the BRB.

You need to deal with the "contradicting" requirement of the BvA rule.

What about Death Ray rules contradict step 1 (Nominate Unit to Shoot) of the shooting sequence? Nothing
What about Death Ray rules contradict step 2 (Choose a Target) of the shooting sequence? Nothing
What about Death Ray rules contradict step 3 (Select a Weapon)of the shooting sequence? Nothing
What about Death Ray rules contradict step 4 (Roll To Hit) of the shooting sequence? Alternate resolution of hits starting with "To fire the FDR . . ."
What about Death Ray rules contradict step 5 (Roll To Wound) of the shooting sequence? Nothing
What about Death Ray rules contradict step 6 (Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties)of the shooting sequence? Nothing
What about Death Ray rules contradict step 7 (Select Another Weapon) of the shooting sequence? Nothing

BvA only overrides step 4 because the BvA rule requires contradicting instructions in order to override the basic with the more advanced one. Contradicting instructions are instructions that preclude each other.

Your argument -- that interprets "To Fire the FDR" as "Instead of the Shooting Sequence" -- is nothing more than a house rule and you have deluded yourself into thinking that that is not a house rule but rather RAW. Nice fantasy there. But that's not RAW. You just have a house rule.

I'm actually going to agree with you. I believe the only step that needs to be BvA'd is #4.

This makes sense from a fluff point.

#1 Zombie Robo-Croissant's turn to shoot
#2 Zombie Robo-Croissant fires Roosevelt Beam (FDR!)
#3 Zombie Robo-Croissant decides to fire Roosevelt Beam at Spesh Mehrine Squad
#4 Zombie Robo-Croissant follows Roosevelt Beam rules to sweep the ray back and forth over the unit by nominate a point close to the squad and swiveling the weapon mount (BvA in effect!)
#5 Zombie Robo-Croissant revels at the number of wounds it caused
#6 Zombie Robo-Croissant revels as the Mehrines fall to pieces
#7 Zombie Robo-Skellingtons' turn to shoot

Having said that, I still think you can just declare any legal target and then just shoot whoever you feel like!

 Kriswall wrote:

I'm actually going to agree with you. I believe the only step that needs to be BvA'd is #4.

This makes sense from a fluff point.

#1 Zombie Robo-Croissant's turn to shoot
#2 Zombie Robo-Croissant fires Roosevelt Beam (FDR!)
#3 Zombie Robo-Croissant decides to fire Roosevelt Beam at Spesh Mehrine Squad
#4 Zombie Robo-Croissant follows Roosevelt Beam rules to sweep the ray back and forth over the unit by nominate a point close to the squad and swiveling the weapon mount (BvA in effect!)
#5 Zombie Robo-Croissant revels at the number of wounds it caused
#6 Zombie Robo-Croissant revels as the Mehrines fall to pieces
#7 Zombie Robo-Skellingtons' turn to shoot

Having said that, I still think you can just declare any legal target and then just shoot whoever you feel like!

My argument all along has been that there just has to be a legal target on the battlefield and once that requirement is settled then you can just shoot whoever you like.

This is the first post I made in this thread.

col_impact wrote:

 unfassbarnathan wrote:
For a squad of 3 sentry pylons with FDR do they all target the same point on the battlefield and roll 3D6 once for all three and hit units under one line multiple times, or can they each target a different point on the battlefield and each individually roll 3D6 and hit units under three lines?

The only restriction is that you have to declare some legal target unit initially (so something has to be on the battlefield that you could target). However, after that it plays out without any connection to the unit you targeted. Each pylon will resolve separately with a different target point on the ground.