Sentry Pylons with Focussed Death Ray

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**unfassbarnathan**

For a squad of 3 sentry pylons with FDR do they all target the same point on the battlefield and roll 3D6 once for all three and hit units under one line multiple times, or can they each target a different point on the battlefield and each individually roll 3D6 and hit units under three lines?

**col_impact**

unfassbarnathan wrote:
For a squad of 3 sentry pylons with FDR do they all target the same point on the battlefield and roll 3D6 once for all three and hit units under one line multiple times, or can they each target a different point on the battlefield and each individually roll 3D6 and hit units under three lines?

The only restriction is that you have to declare some legal target unit initially (so something has to be on the battlefield that you could target). However, after that it plays out without any connection to the unit you targeted. Each pylon will resolve separately with a different target point on the ground.

**Fragile**

col_impact wrote:
unfassbarnathan wrote:
For a squad of 3 sentry pylons with FDR do they all target the same point on the battlefield and roll 3D6 once for all three and hit units under one line multiple times, or can they each target a different point on the battlefield and each individually roll 3D6 and hit units under three lines?

The only restriction is that you have to declare some legal target unit initially (so something has to be on the battlefield that you could target). However, after that it plays out without any connection to the unit you targeted. Each pylon will resolve separately with a different target point on the ground.

There are no units that are targeted. Simply two points on the battlefield.

**col_impact**

Fragile wrote:
col_impact wrote:
unfassbarnathan wrote:
For a squad of 3 sentry pylons with FDR do they all target the same point on the battlefield and roll 3D6 once for all three and hit units under one line multiple times, or can they each target a different point on the battlefield and each individually roll 3D6 and hit units under three lines?

The only restriction is that you have to declare some legal target unit initially (so something has to be on the battlefield that you could target). However, after that it plays out without any connection to the unit you targeted. Each pylon will resolve separately with a different target point on the ground.

There are no units that are targeted. Simply two points on the battlefield.

The shooting rules require that some unit somewhere on the battlefield is a legal target.

Spoiler:

But once that condition is satisfied you are correct that its own funky rules take over and it proceeds as if the unit targeted is irrelevant and you are targeting points on the battlefield.

**Fragile**

You would be incorrect. BvA.

**col_impact**

Fragile wrote:
You would be incorrect. BvA.

Explain how you circumvent the shooting rules.

**Fragile**

col_impact wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You would be incorrect. BvA.

Explain how you circumvent the shooting rules.

Spoiler:

**col_impact**

Fragile wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You would be incorrect. BvA.

Explain how you circumvent the shooting rules.

Spoiler:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

Feel free to point out where you find any contradicting rules.

**Fragile**

col_impact wrote:
Fragile wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You would be incorrect. BvA.

Explain how you circumvent the shooting rules.

Spoiler:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

Feel free to point out where you find any contradicting rules.

Have you read the rule? Perhaps you should show where you need a target unit.

**col_impact**

Fragile wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Fragile wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You would be incorrect. BvA.

Explain how you circumvent the shooting rules.

Spoiler:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

Feel free to point out where you find any contradicting rules.

Have you read the rule? Perhaps you should show where you need a target unit.

You need to show where you have contradicting rules.

**Fragile**

col_impact wrote:
Fragile wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Fragile wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You would be incorrect. BvA.

Explain how you circumvent the shooting rules.

Spoiler:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

Feel free to point out where you find any contradicting rules.

Have you read the rule? Perhaps you should show where you need a target unit.

You need to show where you have contradicting rules.

The rule is self explanatory. It targets points, not units.

**col_impact**

Fragile wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Fragile wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Fragile wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You would be incorrect. BvA.

Explain how you circumvent the shooting rules.

Spoiler:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

Feel free to point out where you find any contradicting rules.

Have you read the rule? Perhaps you should show where you need a target unit.

You need to show where you have contradicting rules.

The rule is self explanatory. It targets points, not units.

Sentry Pylons still follow the shooting sequence. In order for you to use Basic Versus Advanced to hammer away Basic with Codex you need to show "any contradiction."

For example, a Deep Striking Flyrant that has a basic rule that instructed it to use Swooping Mode and a formation rule that instructed it to only use Gliding mode, those rules would count as in contradiction since they are each telling the player to do contradictory things. The Flyrant cannot both use Swooping mode and also only use Gliding mode.

Feel free to try to implement Basic Vs Advanced but you need to show "any contradiction" and I eagerly await your analysis.

**Fragile**

The Sentry Pylons instructions for how to fire are an Advanced rule and therefore overrides your BRB rule.

**col_impact**

Fragile wrote:
The Sentry Pylons instructions for how to fire are an Advanced rule and therefore overrides your BRB rule.

As said, feel free to point out clearly where you see the Sentry Pylon rule contradicting the Shooting Rules in question. Once you show a bona-fide contradiction you may then apply Basic Vs Advanced.

So far you have not shown anything, but I encourage you to scan through and find any. Maybe I missed some.

For example show me rules which contradict, like "use Swooping Flight Mode" and "can only use Gliding Flight Mode" where the player is given contradicting instructions that cannot both be satisfied.

**Kriswall**

The Sentry Pylons give you a very specific method for firing. This method does not involve selecting a target unit. If the BRB rules require selecting a target, there is a contradiction.

To fire the gun, you nominate a point, nominate a second point and draw a line in between.

**col_impact**

Kriswall wrote:
The Sentry Pylons give you a very specific method for firing. This method does not involve selecting a target unit. If the BRB rules require selecting a target, there is a contradiction.

To fire the gun, you nominate a point, nominate a second point and draw a line in between.

Kriswall,

Do they follow the Shooting Sequence?

Spoiler:

**Fragile**

col_impact wrote:
Kriswall wrote:
The Sentry Pylons give you a very specific method for firing. This method does not involve selecting a target unit. If the BRB rules require selecting a target, there is a contradiction.

To fire the gun, you nominate a point, nominate a second point and draw a line in between.

Kriswall,

Do they follow the Shooting Sequence?

Spoiler:

The Shooting Sequence

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.

2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.

3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.

4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.

5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.

6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to
allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.

7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.

Spoiler:

**col_impact**

Kriswall wrote:
The Sentry Pylons give you a very specific method for firing. This method does not involve selecting a target unit. If the BRB rules require selecting a target, there is a contradiction.

To fire the gun, you nominate a point, nominate a second point and draw a line in between.

A contradiction is when one instruction tells you to do something and another instruction tells you to do something and you can't do both (because one precludes the other). In which case BvA kicks in and says do the advanced one.

For example, if you had one rule which said "use Swooping Fllight Mode" and another rule that said "can only use Gliding Flight Mode"

**Fragile**

You mean like "select a target unit" vs "select a point on the ground". Yes.. BvA.

**col_impact**

Fragile wrote:
You mean like "select a target unit" vs "select a point on the ground". Yes.. BvA.

Those don't contradict. You can fulfill both. One doesn't preclude the other.

**Fragile**

You have failed to show a requirement for the Pylon to target a unit.

**col_impact**

Hang on. I investigated further and relooked at the rules for Beam. It's easy in the context of the description of Beam that Death Rays similarly don't follow the shooting sequence, so the normal shooting sequence simply does not apply in the same way it doesn't for Beams.

It's interesting if you look at previous threads on the topic. People have long been debating how to reconcile the Shooting Sequence with the Death Ray and there is a long history of different interpretations on it. However, I think with Beam you have something that functions almost identically to the Death Ray and so we can pretty straightforwardly look to Beam as the guide to follow. The availability of Beam as a guide means we don't have to hash out how to reconcile the Shooting Sequence with the Death Ray.

**grendel083**

Beam? As in the Psychic Witchfire beam? That's very different from what's being used.

Quick question, have you actually read the Sentry Pylon rules?

**col_impact**

grendel083 wrote:
Beam? As in the Psychic Witchfire beam? That's very different from what's being used.

Quick question, have you actually read the Sentry Pylon rules?

Yes I have and I read it again today in fact. And I can't say how you see it's very different. The Beam rules are almost identical to the Death Ray rules which themselves are similar to the Focused Death Ray.

Of course its open to interpretation how to reconcile the Shooting Sequence with Focused Death Ray. So feel free to share your interpretation. There is a long history of debate on Death Rays and the Shooting Sequence and I am sure players have habitually grown accustomed to certain solutions.

However, if you do look at Beam, it effectively doesn't follow the normal shooting sequence at all. That presents itself as one possible solution. Again, feel free to share your take.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beam

Spoiler:

Death Ray

Spoiler:

Focused Death Ray

Spoiler:

The similarities are pretty astounding. Each case involves a 1mm line drawn between two points and generating hits to the number of models under the line. Are death rays indeed the beam subtype? It would seem that we have normal shooting attacks, blasts, template attacks, and beams, and the death rays fall into the category of the latter. and we can follow how the BRB reconciles beams with the shooting sequence (by basically not following it altogether). I am not solid on my opinion yet. Feel free to chime in.

**grendel083**

If a weapon description starts "To fire the.." or "In order to fire the..." you know it's not going to follow standard rules.

It's not a beam sub-type, as beams exist purely as a witchfire sub-type, although there are similarities.
There are enough beam weapons about that really they should have made a beam weapon type by now (like heavy, assault etc).

**Fragile**

grendel083 wrote:
If a weapon description starts "To fire the.." or "In order to fire the..." you know it's not going to follow standard rules.

It's not a beam sub-type, as beams exist purely as a witchfire sub-type, although there are similarities.
There are enough beam weapons about that really they should have made a beam weapon type by now (like heavy, assault etc).

Beams are pretty powerful in what they do in the current rules though. They bypass things like Invis and Jink. Most of the beam types are high str and have a decent AP. Fortunately most of them are psychic powers which gives you the ability to DTW.

Making more weapons with a beam type would be a bad arms race.

**grendel083**

Fragile wrote:
Making more weapons with a beam type would be a bad arms race.

Truth.
But it would be nice if they had a standard set of rules that actually covered the various situations that pop up.

**col_impact**

grendel083 wrote:
If a weapon description starts "To fire the.." or "In order to fire the..." you know it's not going to follow standard rules.

It's not a beam sub-type, as beams exist purely as a witchfire sub-type, although there are similarities.
There are enough beam weapons about that really they should have made a beam weapon type by now (like heavy, assault etc).

If we don't follow the beam subtype as a guide then how exactly do you insert the Death Ray into the shooting sequence? There is quite a bit of debate on that and it seems pretty wide open to interpretation.

It seems that you offer up a common sense rule or house rule that "in order to fire the" is giving permission to not follow the shooting sequence. That permission isn't expressly given by the BRB but we are in house rule land anyway. It's just someone could contest that point.

I offer up the notion that we look for the closest thing in the BRB to go on and take that as a guide (to constrain what would otherwise be a fairly unconstrained process of hashing out how to fit the Death Ray into the BRB). Again, my "follow Beam as a guide" is effectively a house rule.

Both of those house rules effectively come to the same way of integrating the Death Ray into the BRB, and my "look at Beam and how that's done" argument supports your "'in order to fire the' giving permission to not follow the shooting sequence" argument.

**grendel083**

I suppose it's a good a presedence as any.
Just wish the thing was better written.

**Fragile**

col_impact wrote:

If we don't follow the beam subtype as a guide then how exactly do you insert the Death Ray into the shooting sequence?

Following the shooting sequence with the Focused Death Ray.

1. Nominate unit to shoot. - Pylon
2. Choose a target. - Here is where BvA kicks in and you target a set of points rather than a unit. "To Fire the FDR....." in the rule.
3. Select weapon- This is also covered in the "To fire the FDR.."
4. Roll to Hit - Skipped due to the rule stating units under the line are hit.
5. Roll to Wound - From here down the shooting process takes back over.

The FDR rule overrides 2, 3, 4. The Beam subtype weapons are pretty much the same other than choosing just a single point and a few restrictions.