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 Cheesecat wrote:

 Compel wrote:
If I remember right, his father was traditionally Scottish, while his mother was English.

England and Scotland have black citizens.

Scottish Father, Swiss Mother.

And old scottish, coat of arms and all that. Highly unlikely to be black.

But that really means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Hollywood will do what Hollywood wants.

I was more clarifying the Scottish part of Cheescat's reply.

As I said earlier, I'm still getting over the whole 'Bond is blonde' thing :p

 Deadshot wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
whereas here it is just up and out attempts to appease the Political Correctness crap.

Or maybe that he's just a great actor and people think he would possibly make a great Bond. Political correctness doesn't even have to enter into the thought.

I'm sorry, but that's exactly what it is. There are hundreds of great British actors, and there are plenty that would make a great Bond. They could keep Craig on for fan appeal. Craig's stint as Bond has been the most successful and popular to date. Of course there is debate as to whether he or Connery is better but financially it is superior and therefore successful. So why not keep him on? Why is this guy the best choice for Bond? It's not, its PC. They are trying to not be seen as racist by including a black actor. But as I said, the issue is that people won't see him as Bond because Bond has an established style, look and iconography, and part of that iconography is a white 40 year old Englishman from Eton with a London accent who looks like he could be your run of the mill civil servant or rich bloke who got invited to the party because he knows somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody.

This guy does not look like a Bond. He does not sound like a Bond. He does not act like a Bond. I cannot imagine him moving or being a Bond. His name is not a typical British name for a Bond. As opposed to previous actors.

There's also the fact that Craig doesn't want to do anymore, and apparently didn't want to do any after Casino Royale.

And this whole thing started from a single line in an email between Sony executives simply saying 'Idris should be the next Bond'.

These are both in the OP link. Reading it might be helpful.

It's impossible to read anything into it, whether political correctness, appreciation of his acting abilities, or just wanting to be different. I was just offering an alternate take on why they might have said it. Flat out stating others are wrong is arrogant and insulting when you have so little to go on, whether you've 'studied' the last film for 4 months or not.

edit - also, there's no reason they can't lose Craig and do a new movie with a different 00 agent. As said at the start of Casino Royale, 00 is the job description.

So presumably none of you have any problem with Moneypenny now being black?

 Albatross wrote:
So presumably none of you have any problem with Moneypenny now being black?

Why should anyone?

 djones520 wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
So presumably none of you have any problem with Moneypenny now being black?

Why should anyone?

Why should anyone care if Bond is? I am suspicious about anyone who would be opposed to James Bond being played by a black actor, frankly.

 Albatross wrote:

Why should anyone care if Bond is? I am suspicious about anyone who would be opposed to James Bond being played by a black actor, frankly.

As a character, she's not defined by her skin color. In fact, she didn't seem to be a character at all until Skyfall. If in Bond 24 they'd expand on her past and incorporate her ethnicity into it in some way, it would make it rather awkward to later on replace her with a white actress.

On the other hand, given where Bond came from and the big deal they made out if it in the last few movies, it would be hard to replace him with a black actor unless the intention was to subvert the genre in some way. Doing it for the sake of having Idris Elba in the movie does not further anything in the genre and smells of checking off a list. Do it with a purpose or don't do it at all.

Your not so subtle accusation was noted.

I kinda wonder why no one was outraged when the "traditionally Scottish" James Bond was played by an American, an Irishman, and an Australian.

Where were the screams of how "hollywood was bending to the PC lobby" when it to cast a Scottishman when the actors who "traditionally played James Bond" were Americans of Norwegian descent?

I mean, Jesus, just say you don't want to see a black Bond, don't feel like you need to rationalize that gak with the usual bs racism rationalization buzzwords.

It's racist!

And thus any form of civil discussion ends. Job well done.

Well, one of you could come up with a non-stupid reason why Idris Elba wouldn't be a good Bond. So far that hasn't really happened. I think the only real requirement is to look good in a suit and be a reasonably smooth dude, not too tough of a job.

 Ouze wrote:
Well, one of you could come up with a non-stupid reason why Idris Elba wouldn't be a good Bond. So far that hasn't really happened. I think the only real requirement is to look good in a suit and be a reasonably smooth dude, not too tough of a job.

Has anyone actually said he wouldn't be a good Bond?

All I've seen is discussion about how the character has been pretty clearly established as a caucasion in his source material.

But yeah, saying a white man is white is clearly racist now. *rolls eyes*

 djones520 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Well, one of you could come up with a non-stupid reason why Idris Elba wouldn't be a good Bond. So far that hasn't really happened. I think the only real requirement is to look good in a suit and be a reasonably smooth dude, not too tough of a job.

Has anyone actually said he wouldn't be a good Bond?

 Deadshot wrote:
This guy does not look like a Bond. He does not sound like a Bond. He does not act like a Bond. I cannot imagine him moving or being a Bond. His name is not a typical British name for a Bond. As opposed to previous actors.

reading the thread

super simple stuff

Ahh, I'm sorry. I missed one post out of more then 60.

But it's good that one post was there to slam on everyone else's comments. Bravo Ouze.

Bond is a juxtaposition of a middle class English gentleman and a stone cold killer. Now maybe that's just me, but the former trope does evoke the image of a white male.

You can change that and cast a black actor as bond. But if the change is just "Idris Elba is cool" and not "we totally have a new take on the Bond archetype, check it out guys", I just don't see the point.

 djones520 wrote:
Ahh, I'm sorry. I missed one post out of more then 60.

But it's good that one post was there to slam on everyone else's comments. Bravo Ouze.

It's hard being right all the time, but... it's my burden to bear.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Bond is a juxtaposition of a middle class English gentleman and a stone cold killer. Now maybe that's just me, but the former trope does evoke the image of a white male.

See, my angle is that I've seen The Wire so I feel like he'd be pretty good at the latter, and I've seen Luther, so I think I'd be pretty good at the former, too.

To be fair, when they cast Daniel Craig I recall people complaining "but Bond isn't blonde".

 DarkLink wrote:
To be fair, when they cast Daniel Craig I recall people complaining "but Bond isn't blonde".

Oh my gawd. I had no idea. Seriously, check this out.

Maybe people just get butthurt when there's a new Bond regardless of who it is? I don't follow the franchise enough to know.

People complained loudly about Michael Keaton as Batman before he played the character. People complained loudly about Heath Ledger as Joker before he played the character. People complained loudly about Matt Smith as Doctor Who before he played the character. People complained loudly about Daniel Craig as James Bond before he played the character. No doubt people will complain about any choice of a new Bond until it they have seen it.

We should also remember that there won't be a new bond for at least several years either so this seems to be a bit premature.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Bond is a juxtaposition of a middle class English gentleman and a stone cold killer. Now maybe that's just me, but the former trope does evoke the image of a white male.

My missus is black, British and middle class. Should I go and tell her to stop trying to be British and middle class because some people think her face doesn't fit? Where are you from, incidentally? Are you from the uk?

You can change that and cast a black actor as bond. But if the change is just "Idris Elba is cool" and not "we totally have a new take on the Bond archetype, check it out guys", I just don't see the point.

You can not see the point, that's your prerogative. Elba is, however, a talented British actor with exactly the sort of style, physical presence and personality to carry off the role of Bond. Ruling him out due to his skin colour leaves me a little queasy and yes, I AM suspicious of those who are vehemently opposed to his appointment to the role on that basis.

It's a moot point like, as Idris himself has come out and said he has no interest in being the 'the Black Bond'. Personally, Tom Hardy is my first choice, though I doubt he'd want the job. Failing that, Elba is an excellent choice, as would be (as someone else pointed out) Chiwetel Ejiofor. Who else is there? Eddie Redmayne is too young and I don't buy him as a killer. Christian Bale has already done Batman and I doubt he would take on another big franchise. James McAvoy might be a good shout perhaps. I always thought Liam Neeson would have been a fantastic Bond, but he's too old now I reckon.

They can't have a black James Bond, simple reason is that the first American cop that crossed his path would shoot him dead.


Additionally no self respecting black man would use a tiny gun like the walther ppk, black Bond would of course have a huge gun.

 Albatross wrote:

My missus is black, British and middle class. Should I go and tell her to stop trying to be British and middle class because some people think her face doesn't fit? Where are you from, incidentally? Are you from the uk?

Well, she certainly does not fit the trope. I have no idea whether she should find that a problem, it's up to her. I'm from Poland and have no idea why that matters here.

 Albatross wrote:
You can not see the point, that's your prerogative. Elba is, however, a talented British actor with exactly the sort of style, physical presence and personality to carry off the role of Bond. Ruling him out due to his skin colour leaves me a little queasy and yes, I AM suspicious of those who are vehemently opposed to his appointment to the role on that basis.

Okay, I'm pretty sure I never said Elba can't be Bond. But now that Bond is finally a little more than a suit with a gun, it would require some tinkering with the background material to accommodate a non white actor in the role. Strangely, it would have been much easier to get a non white bond in the role before Skyfall happened.

I'm sure the next time Bond will get a refresh someone in the studio will bring that idea up. If they come up with something more than putting a black dude in a kilt for the sake of it, go for it I say.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Albatross wrote:

My missus is black, British and middle class. Should I go and tell her to stop trying to be British and middle class because some people think her face doesn't fit? Where are you from, incidentally? Are you from the uk?

Well, she certainly does not fit the trope. I have no idea whether she should find that a problem, it's up to her. I'm from Poland and have no idea why that matters here.

I was curious as to your level of interaction and familiarity with British society and, in turn, what qualifies you to venture an opinion on it. *EDITED FOR UNFAIRNESS*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 stanman wrote:
They can't have a black James Bond, simple reason is that the first American cop that crossed his path would shoot him dead.


Additionally no self respecting black man would use a tiny gun like the walther ppk, black Bond would of course have a huge gun.

Stay classy, stanman.

 Albatross wrote:
I was curious as to your level of interaction and familiarity with British society and, in turn, what qualifies you to venture an opinion on it. In truth, I also asked because there is a significant white supremacist presence in Poland, reportedly.

Well, I did say it was a trope. A cultural construct by definition reliant on broad generalisations. Bond is an international brand after all.

I have no idea where the "significant" white supremacist presence in Poland would come from, given that we're almost entirely homogeneous in terms of population and have next to no non white immigration. We have trace amounts of Africans, mostly from the Communist era of altruistic help for our sub-Saharan brother states. Generally well educated and middle class. A small number of Vietnamese, decently integrated. Some Caucasus refugees, mostly Chechen. A small number of Roma of different denominations. Rest of the non native Poles are generally Germans, Russians, Ukrainians and Czech.

Do I occasionally see a swastika sprayed on the wall? Sure. Do we burn down immigration centres or chase black kids through the park with pitchforks? Not really.

 Ouze wrote:
I kinda wonder why no one was outraged when the "traditionally Scottish" James Bond was played by an American, an Irishman, and an Australian.

Where were the screams of how "hollywood was bending to the PC lobby" when it to cast a Scottishman when the actors who "traditionally played James Bond" were Americans of Norwegian descent?

I mean, Jesus, just say you don't want to see a black Bond, don't feel like you need to rationalize that gak with the usual bs racism rationalization buzzwords.

Look, the previous actors' nationalities don't come into it. All of them, with the exception of Craig fit Ian Fleming's description of Bond. Idris Elba is a polar opposite. Fleming described Bond as looking like Hoagy Carmichael. If you can tell me how making Elba bond will conform to that, I'd accept it hands down.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
I was curious as to your level of interaction and familiarity with British society and, in turn, what qualifies you to venture an opinion on it. In truth, I also asked because there is a significant white supremacist presence in Poland, reportedly.

Well, I did say it was a trope. A cultural construct by definition reliant on broad generalisations. Bond is an international brand after all.

I think the word you are looking for is 'stereotype', i.e the stereotype that a middle class privately educated Briton is automatically white. I'm not in favour of letting that stereotype dictate who should play James Bond, neither am I in favour of that stereotype meaning that an inferior white actor gets the job over Elba, simply by virtue of being the 'right' colour. That's not the country I want to live in. Bond's colour is immaterial. It would be ridiculously easy to make Bond a black man.

I have no idea where the "significant" white supremacist presence in Poland would come from, given that we're almost entirely homogeneous in terms of population and have next to no non white immigration. We have trace amounts of Africans, mostly from the Communist era of altruistic help for our sub-Saharan brother states. Generally well educated and middle class. A small number of Vietnamese, decently integrated. Some Caucasus refugees, mostly Chechen. A small number of Roma of different denominations. Rest of the non native Poles are generally Germans, Russians, Ukrainians and Czech.

Do I occasionally see a swastika sprayed on the wall? Sure. Do we burn down immigration centres or chase black kids through the park with pitchforks? Not really.

To be honest mate, I'd gone back and edited that out as it was pretty unfair. Apologies. 'Peace and goodwill' etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Look, the previous actors' nationalities don't come into it. All of them, with the exception of Craig fit Ian Fleming's description of Bond. Idris Elba is a polar opposite. Fleming described Bond as looking like Hoagy Carmichael. If you can tell me how making Elba bond will conform to that, I'd accept it hands down.

Presumably you didn't watch Skyfall then? I don't know if you've noticed, but we've pretty much jettisoned Fleming's source material of late. What would be the problem with the 'original' James Bond retiring and a new officer adopting the identity?

 Albatross wrote:
I think the word you are looking for is 'stereotype', i.e the stereotype that a middle class privately educated Briton is automatically white. I'm not in favour of letting that stereotype dictate who should play James Bond, neither am I in favour of that stereotype meaning that an inferior white actor gets the job over Elba, simply by virtue of being the 'right' colour. That's not the country I want to live in. Bond's colour is immaterial. It would be ridiculously easy to make Bond a black man.

Does a trope use stereotyping? Yes. Can it be harmful? Yes. I'm not in position to tell anyone to like that sort of stuff, given the amount of Polish jokes I've heard

And no worries about the other thing.

 Albatross wrote:
It's a moot point like, as Idris himself has come out and said he has no interest in being the 'the Black Bond'.

You're right and wrong. He did say that, but the takeaway from the interview wasn't that he wouldn't take the role, he was just bemoaning that he didn't want to be thought of that way.

Also, isn't Tom Hardy too young to be James Bond?

 Albatross wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Look, the previous actors' nationalities don't come into it. All of them, with the exception of Craig fit Ian Fleming's description of Bond. Idris Elba is a polar opposite. Fleming described Bond as looking like Hoagy Carmichael. If you can tell me how making Elba bond will conform to that, I'd accept it hands down.

Presumably you didn't watch Skyfall then? I don't know if you've noticed, but we've pretty much jettisoned Fleming's source material of late. What would be the problem with the 'original' James Bond retiring and a new officer adopting the identity?

James Bond is his birth name.

His father in the books was called Andrew Bond. As for Skyfall, any film post Casino Royale was not based on the books as Casino Royale was the last book that hadn't been made into a film.

Ouze wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
To be fair, when they cast Daniel Craig I recall people complaining "but Bond isn't blonde".

Oh my gawd. I had no idea. Seriously, check this out.

Maybe people just get butthurt when there's a new Bond regardless of who it is? I don't follow the franchise enough to know.

Yeah, I'd say a fair amount of the complaints only sound racist, for what it's worth.

stanman wrote:They can't have a black James Bond, simple reason is that the first American cop that crossed his path would shoot him dead.


Additionally no self respecting black man would use a tiny gun like the walther ppk, black Bond would of course have a huge gun.

...wtf? Why would you think either of these jokes are funny?

 Ouze wrote:
Also, isn't Tom Hardy too young to be James Bond?

He is 37 and hasn't got the role yet, so not really. Ages of the actor when they started:

Connery: 31
Lazenby: 29
Moore: 44
Dalton: 40
Brosnan: 41
Craig: 37