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MarsNZ wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Space Wolves did not destroy the 2 missing legions. Well, there's nothing concrete to say they did. Tiny little hints that could mean anything.

Agreed, trouble is SW writers seem to be required to include something about the 'extra special' nature of them. They have better senses, more RAGE(TM), channel 'Fenris spirits' instead of the warp (or something...) so you can see why SW players often tow this line.

Realistically in the HH novels there's about as much evidence to suggest the lost legions were amalgamated into the Ultramarines as there is to suggest the Wolves destroyed them.

not really. there's been a few hints the wolves may have been involved. from numerous soruces which would have solid information on the matter. ALL we have for the ultramarine fold in is a snide comment from a word bearer.. that MAY be true, or MAY just be conspiracy theorying, and is worth noting it was worded in a way suggesting he certinly didn't know for sure

BrianDavion wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Space Wolves did not destroy the 2 missing legions. Well, there's nothing concrete to say they did. Tiny little hints that could mean anything.

Agreed, trouble is SW writers seem to be required to include something about the 'extra special' nature of them. They have better senses, more RAGE(TM), channel 'Fenris spirits' instead of the warp (or something...) so you can see why SW players often tow this line.

Realistically in the HH novels there's about as much evidence to suggest the lost legions were amalgamated into the Ultramarines as there is to suggest the Wolves destroyed them.

not really. there's been a few hints the wolves may have been involved. from numerous soruces which would have solid information on the matter. ALL we have for the ultramarine fold in is a snide comment from a word bearer.. that MAY be true, or MAY just be conspiracy theorying, and is worth noting it was worded in a way suggesting he certinly didn't know for sure

Seriously, list these sources. Because they're as reliable as the WB one.

The Space wolves are just an uninspired Legion of Viking World Eater wannabes and they needed a theme, So they had one cobbled up.
Literally the World Eaters do everything better, they Probably needed a toned down beer chugging "Bro culture" loyalist version and that's where the space furries come in.

 ImAGeek wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Space Wolves did not destroy the 2 missing legions. Well, there's nothing concrete to say they did. Tiny little hints that could mean anything.

Agreed, trouble is SW writers seem to be required to include something about the 'extra special' nature of them. They have better senses, more RAGE(TM), channel 'Fenris spirits' instead of the warp (or something...) so you can see why SW players often tow this line.

Realistically in the HH novels there's about as much evidence to suggest the lost legions were amalgamated into the Ultramarines as there is to suggest the Wolves destroyed them.

not really. there's been a few hints the wolves may have been involved. from numerous soruces which would have solid information on the matter. ALL we have for the ultramarine fold in is a snide comment from a word bearer.. that MAY be true, or MAY just be conspiracy theorying, and is worth noting it was worded in a way suggesting he certinly didn't know for sure

Seriously, list these sources. Because they're as reliable as the WB one.

A bunch of SW novels... Duh!

Okay, now, a few things:
1.) The Astartes were plan b, not plan a. They were the Emperor's contingency plan after the Primarchs got spirited away.
2.) The Emperor had as much security as he possibly could around the the Primarchs. He undoubtedly had Geller fields, Titaniusm lock-vaults, lasers, sentry guns, etc. etc. However, this is Chaos Undivided. Not even the C'tan would be able to defeat Chaos Undivided. This is the power of a Chaos God on steroids with some meth and cocaine on top and just a bit of adrenaline and Spice to top it all off. The Emperor undoubtedly knew that they would be able to penetrate almost anything that he erected, so he also made their incubation capsules as heavily armored as he possibly could. This is the most powerful and intelligent Psyker in all human history here.
3.) You can't program a personality through genes. Personality is a product of your upbringing, coupled with who you are in your SOUL. I highly doubt that the Emperor had enough power (at the time) to program the Primarchs at a metaphysical level before he had ascended to Godhood.
4.) The Space Marine Legions had no original purpose other than to conquer the galaxy. They were created using the genetic template of the Primarchs because that was the best genetic template that he could mass-produce (his own would be far more difficult to implant into the amounts of Astartes he would need). However, genes do not dictate style, personality, flavor, etc. of a person or a Legion. Those were created over time from the regions of Terra where their recruits came from, and from the combat zones they were fielded in, and later from the Primarchs themselves and their homeplanets.
5.) The Space Wolves DID assign themselves the roles of executioners. Or at least Russ did. To the best of my knowledge, Malcador the Sigillette knew this and accepted and that is why he ordered them to post Packs in all of the Legions; he knew they were warriors he could trust to immediately cut the heads off of any treacherous snakes that should arise. Also, there is enough hints and knowledge dropped that we can safely assume that the Space Wolves were assigned with the elimination of at least one of the missing Legions.

The last point is the misconception I think, the Wolves/Russ assigned THEMSELVES as the executioners. It wasn't the Emperors purpose for them.

And there still isn't anything concrete about them destroying either of the missing legions. There just isn't. There's a lot of heresay about it, but no actual evidence. So there's as much evidence that the UM absorbed the missing legions as there is the SW wiped them out.

One of the bits of 'evidence' was in a ADB book which I can't remember which one, where it references the SW 'have done this before'. ADB himself clarified that it was nothing to do with the missing legions, but was a reference to the Night of the Wolf in Betrayer, where the SW went to chastise the World Eaters, and it turns out Russ went of his own accord, and wasn't sent by the Emperor, which could be more evidence that he self appointed himself as the 'Executioner'.

 ImAGeek wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Space Wolves did not destroy the 2 missing legions. Well, there's nothing concrete to say they did. Tiny little hints that could mean anything.

Agreed, trouble is SW writers seem to be required to include something about the 'extra special' nature of them. They have better senses, more RAGE(TM), channel 'Fenris spirits' instead of the warp (or something...) so you can see why SW players often tow this line.

Realistically in the HH novels there's about as much evidence to suggest the lost legions were amalgamated into the Ultramarines as there is to suggest the Wolves destroyed them.

not really. there's been a few hints the wolves may have been involved. from numerous soruces which would have solid information on the matter. ALL we have for the ultramarine fold in is a snide comment from a word bearer.. that MAY be true, or MAY just be conspiracy theorying, and is worth noting it was worded in a way suggesting he certinly didn't know for sure

Seriously, list these sources. Because they're as reliable as the WB one.

they are as relible, but there are just a few more times it's said. referances to the wolves being the emperor's executioners etc (they had to get that idea somehow) and IIRC in burning of prosperio someone commented to Russ that the wolves being tasked to destroy another legion was unprecidented, which got a "ohh really?" laugh from him, but there's not sufficant proof for it. and there's some counter proof as well, such as the idea that marines fighting marines was, considered unthinkable eneugh that a ultramarines sergent was censored just for theoreticly musing on how it'd be done. really there's very little direct evidance.. and honestly myself, I tend to be of the opinion that the wovles likely wheren't the ones who would have been tasked with it. for a varity of reasons I have a hunch the emperor wouldn't take 1 legion with destroying another unless he had no real other choice

Well, then why didn't the Wolves have any problem with wiping out the Thousand Sons? Their rivalry wasn't so great that they wanted to KILL each other (yet), it was just at the point of enjoying their humiloations. It seems more likely that the Wolves have had experience with similar matters before and are not opposed to killing their Brother Legions.

 dusara217 wrote:
Well, then why didn't the Wolves have any problem with wiping out the Thousand Sons? Their rivalry wasn't so great that they wanted to KILL each other (yet), it was just at the point of enjoying their humiloations. It seems more likely that the Wolves have had experience with similar matters before and are not opposed to killing their Brother Legions.

Because the Wolves blindly follow commands from the Emperor and they thought that he wanted them destroyed. That's all. They're unflinchinly loyal and will follow any command. Nothing to do with them having experience doing it before, because they weren't happy about doing it either, he didn't want to do it, but he did because it was his orders.

Most legions had their original purpose changed by their nutty primarchs. The best example would probably be World Eaters, who became mad blood warriors, but from the HH books it seems the War Hounds were like Space Wolves and an Ultramarine style of brotherhood. Most other legions saw a similar change when they were reunited with their primarch, like the Death Guard and the Alpha legion. In the end the legions were tools for the conquest of the galaxy, and how they did it was up to their leaders eventually.

The Space Wolfs are the ruthless killers who will obey any order, no matter how horrible.

The Word Bearers are the pitious..

The Iron warriors and the Imperial Fists are builders and masters of siegecraft.

The Thousand Sons are the sages.

The Raven Guard and the Night Lords are the masters of stealth.

The Alpha Legion are the masters of deception.

The Emperors Children seek perfection above all else.

The Ultramarines are the leaders of worlds.

The World Eaters are like the Space Wolfs, a crude weapon unleashed on doomed worlds.

The Iron Hands are the engineers.

Not sure about the Death Guard and the Blood Angels, nor the Salamanders or Dark Angels..

 Reality-Torrent wrote:
The Space Wolfs are the ruthless killers who will obey any order, no matter how horrible.

The Word Bearers are the pitious..

The Iron warriors and the Imperial Fists are builders and masters of siegecraft.

The Thousand Sons are the sages.

The Raven Guard and the Night Lords are the masters of stealth.

The Alpha Legion are the masters of deception.

The Emperors Children seek perfection above all else.

The Ultramarines are the leaders of worlds.

The World Eaters are like the Space Wolfs, a crude weapon unleashed on doomed worlds.

The Iron Hands are the engineers.

Not sure about the Death Guard and the Blood Angels, nor the Salamanders or Dark Angels..

All of the Legions that you mentioned, their pruposes were based off of what their Primarchs morphed them into, not from what the Emperor intended. If you actually want to figure out what their original purposes were, then you have to look at the Legions BEFORE the Primarchs started fething them up and changing them and turning them into something completely different.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Reality-Torrent wrote:
The Space Wolfs are the ruthless killers who will obey any order, no matter how horrible.

The Word Bearers are the pitious..

The Iron warriors and the Imperial Fists are builders and masters of siegecraft.

The Thousand Sons are the sages.

The Raven Guard and the Night Lords are the masters of stealth.

The Alpha Legion are the masters of deception.

The Emperors Children seek perfection above all else.

The Ultramarines are the leaders of worlds.

The World Eaters are like the Space Wolfs, a crude weapon unleashed on doomed worlds.

The Iron Hands are the engineers.

Not sure about the Death Guard and the Blood Angels, nor the Salamanders or Dark Angels..

All of the Legions that you mentioned, their pruposes were based off of what their Primarchs morphed them into, not from what the Emperor intended. If you actually want to figure out what their original purposes were, then you have to look at the Legions BEFORE the Primarchs started fething them up and changing them and turning them into something completely different.

Agreed. Although some did have similar purposes, iirc the Night Lords for example were used as a terror weapon even during the Unification Wars, but the Primarchs did have a big effect on the way their legions operated.

Bad writing, bad design. 25+ years of it will get you marines riding wolves and terminator flying around in sleighs. The black library publications are mostly heresy. Entertaining and fun, but still heresy.

Also, there is so little writing and the writers are sort of autonomous that cannon will always be conflicting. Their original purpose was to fight the emperor's war, and whatever they specialized in after that was outside of their original parameters, which was to be a competent fighting force.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

doc21 wrote:

If their only role was to be as a simple 'tool of war' every Primarch would have been a copy of Angron instead of having their own diverse characteristics.

Absolutely not.

Angron was terrible at warfare, lol.

They should have all been clones of Guilliman. Martial prowess, courage, duty, restraint, foresight.

The last thing you want is an army of mindless, irrational butchers that die in droves and have to be constantly replaced with more substandard troops of the same low caliber. Because that's what the World Eaters were.

I'd disagree - Angron was mainly mental because of having nails for brains. You never know what could have happened if you hadn't lobotomised him.

Yeah but the fact is that he was lobotomised, and as such was pretty terrible. Whereas Guillaman had a pretty solid track record. If you had to pick one as a general, which would you pick?

Neither. Angron might have been bad at forward thinking, but Guilliman would have been just as terrible in charge. His disdain for any tactics other than those he endorsed and willingness to humiliate his brothers alienated three legions before the Heresy and would have done the same to a lot more if the Heresy hadn't intervened. He had no respect for stealth or misdirection until the Alpha Legion showed him up, and even then he claimed his own tactics were better. So, that's a general with no concept of defending against spies who makes enemies of anyone who disagrees with him.

 changerofways wrote:
As I see it:

Thousand Sons- To research and perfect the use of sorcery

You are suggesting that the Emperor wills sorcery? Heresy! *BLAM*!

 Durza wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

doc21 wrote:

If their only role was to be as a simple 'tool of war' every Primarch would have been a copy of Angron instead of having their own diverse characteristics.

Absolutely not.

Angron was terrible at warfare, lol.

They should have all been clones of Guilliman. Martial prowess, courage, duty, restraint, foresight.

The last thing you want is an army of mindless, irrational butchers that die in droves and have to be constantly replaced with more substandard troops of the same low caliber. Because that's what the World Eaters were.

I'd disagree - Angron was mainly mental because of having nails for brains. You never know what could have happened if you hadn't lobotomised him.

Yeah but the fact is that he was lobotomised, and as such was pretty terrible. Whereas Guillaman had a pretty solid track record. If you had to pick one as a general, which would you pick?

Neither. Angron might have been bad at forward thinking, but Guilliman would have been just as terrible in charge. His disdain for any tactics other than those he endorsed and willingness to humiliate his brothers alienated three legions before the Heresy and would have done the same to a lot more if the Heresy hadn't intervened. He had no respect for stealth or misdirection until the Alpha Legion showed him up, and even then he claimed his own tactics were better. So, that's a general with no concept of defending against spies who makes enemies of anyone who disagrees with him.

This. feth guilliman, he was a close-minded donkey-cave.

I'm not saying Guilliman is the absolute best pick, but I'd pick him over Angron any day.