Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Somebody has to be the best.

Why does everyone get a bug up their butts that Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson (you know, the guys who invented the game) decided it was the Ultramarines?

I just dislike the idea that anybody has to be the best, which is why I find the Grey Knights to be so boring. The Ultramarines aren't as good as the Imperial Fists at siege warfare, or the Raven Guard at stealth, or the Blood Angels at assault. I prefer the idea that each of the first founding chapters has their niche that they do better than anybody else, and not the idea that one of them is just flat out the best.

The whole idea of the Codex Astartes was creating chapters that are really good at everything. Specialization for Space Marines is not only silly, but impractical. The ability to fight in any way on any planet in any conditions is what would make a Space Marine chapter really good.

Specializing in one kind of warfare is a bad thing for Space Marines. It suggests a dogmatic, inflexible approach and a limited range of thinking. Especially sieges or defensive warfare like the Fists since that kind of fighting is actually anathema to the Space Marines' typical mission. And well, stealth fighting when you're giant armored shock troops is also kinda silly. At least the Blood Angels have the excuse that their Marines lose their minds after a while and can't really be controlled. The reason why the Ultramarines are the best is probably because all of the Space Marine chapters should be imitating their style of warfare, and practical approach to all different kinds of fighting.

And being jack of all trades can also be a hindrance in certain situations, but that's not my problem with your post. This idea of things being impractical or unrealistic has crept into the forums especially bad in the last month or so for some reason. The entire setting is ridiculous, so where does this all come from? One of the greatest threats to mankind is space fungus that rides asteroids down to the planet and attacks with blunt axes and guns that shouldn't work. Space Marines themselves use chainsaw swords, and can gain an alien's memory by eating their brains. Having chapters that specialize in one form of combat over another is hardly the most impractical thing in the setting.

ever since the first color image came out in the Rogue Trader days, when it was just grey armor and a red wolf head, Space Wolves have always been my favorite Chapter...
as their character was developed in their first Codex, with incredible art by Mark Gibbons, i was hooked for life...
to me, they are the coolest, as the Nordic themes resonate strongly with me...
no other Chapter has the same appeal for me...

Blood Angels are a close second, followed by the Salamanders, and the Iron Hands...
i love the bling of the Blood Angels, the fire of the Salamanders, and the bionics of the Iron Hands, but none of these Chapters have a backstory that speaks to me like the Space Wolves do...

cheers
jah

 Wyzilla wrote:
This is also part of the reason why I like the Dark Angels. They're really, really low on bling, with their Veterans just being normal dudes in Aquila armor with robes. Hell they're more modest then the Ultramarines even, whose First Company veterans look like walking golden art galleries.

Plus they have the coolest looking Chaplains.

I would say that if Space Marines lacked one ability it would be the ability to be modest. Honestly only one chapter can be called modest (the Imperial Fists) and even that is a stretch.

 Wyzilla wrote:
This is also part of the reason why I like the Dark Angels. They're really, really low on bling, with their Veterans just being normal dudes in Aquila armor with robes. Hell they're more modest then the Ultramarines even, whose First Company veterans look like walking golden art galleries.

Plus they have the coolest looking Chaplains.

I'm sure if they made a DA specific tactical squad now it would be just as blinged out as the BA one is.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
This is also part of the reason why I like the Dark Angels. They're really, really low on bling, with their Veterans just being normal dudes in Aquila armor with robes. Hell they're more modest then the Ultramarines even, whose First Company veterans look like walking golden art galleries.

Plus they have the coolest looking Chaplains.

I'm sure if they made a DA specific tactical squad now it would be just as blinged out as the BA one is.

They did, and it wasn't.

No they didn't, that was like...6/7 years ago? Notice I said 'if they made one NOW...'

 ImAGeek wrote:
No they didn't, that was like...6/7 years ago? Notice I said 'if they made one NOW...'

Oh what yeah the monopose plastics from DV? That's the same. Also still getting on 3 years ago.

I reckon they'd overbling them if they did a proper Tac squad like the BA one. If they did one like the DV ones but posable and with all the options that would be pretty cool. Although I do quite like the BA one, and it kindof fits them maybe I guess? But they do seem to just add things wherever there's space lately, hence why everything has skulls all over the place.

Gotta go raven guard because, well shrike.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No they didn't, that was like...6/7 years ago? Notice I said 'if they made one NOW...'

Where are the robes? I thought the Dark Angels jogged around looking like the Cowled Wizards just in powered armour.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No they didn't, that was like...6/7 years ago? Notice I said 'if they made one NOW...'

Where are the robes? I thought the Dark Angels jogged around looking like the Cowled Wizards just in powered armour.

You only get to wear robes on your armor if you're a veteran/member of the inner circle.

Since those kekkers are scrubs, they only get to wear robes out of armor.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No they didn't, that was like...6/7 years ago? Notice I said 'if they made one NOW...'

Where are the robes? I thought the Dark Angels jogged around looking like the Cowled Wizards just in powered armour.

You only get to wear robes on your armor if you're a veteran/member of the inner circle.

Since those kekkers are scrubs, they only get to wear robes out of armor.

Okay, seems to make sense.

BrianDavion wrote:

Sabor wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:


Have you ever read a SW novel? Any SW novel refutes point 1

And the Lion knocked Russ out with one hit.

They have lost multiple engagements, including one that was started with the imperium of man itself...thus point 1 is still valid and strong. The space wolves will lose on occasions, where as ultramarines, they have only ever lost a handful of engagements ever and even when they lose those small engagements they are retconned or made seem small for the much larger war which they crush the enemy. (I.e. hive fleet behemoth, Damnos, the ironblood campaign etc...)

I'd argue that surviving a fight with the entire IoM puts them as firmly in the Mary sue camp as any other SM chapter

Are you talking about the time the Ecclesiarchy besieged Fenris? Because, if so, that was only a single Fleet with some SoB, not "the entire IoM". The SW have never directly fought the IoM, though they have come close on multiple occasions (Armageddon comes to mind)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Take a look at the Blood Angel tactical squad box. Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick is it overloaded with blood drops, vials, chalices, wings and all manner of details. Then the Sergeant has abs and molded nipples. It's just an excess of details for the sake of details. It's the Square Enix school of design.

That's even touched on like twenty times in the Omnibus, a few of the BA Successors look down on the BA for being so fancy and wearing overly ornate armour. That's actually part of the reason that I went BA Successor, because BA are too damn pompous for my tastes. Sanguinius and BA Legion were amazing, though, and I can't let go of Space Jesus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To the Smurf fanboys:
Ultramarines are most certainly not the best, nor do all Chapters look up to Calgar and wish they were Smurfs (maybe, like, 1% do). Chapters of Astartes highly prize their indivuality and Chapter heritage/pride/honor, and would never see another Chapter as better than there own, though there are always exceptions.

It's probably more than 1% look up to the Ultramarines, seeing as there's a hell of a lot of UM successors. I don't think anyone was actually suggesting that the UM are the best, just pointed out that's what it says in the fluff, and the UM are a very well rounded competent fighting force, very disciplined, and excellent track record even from before the Heresy, and yeah, I would say they're one of the best chapters.

really I'd say what Ultramarines have the best of is PR.

BrianDavion wrote:
really I'd say what Ultramarines have the best of is PR.

I doubt that considering even before the Heresy they are stated to have the second highest number of compliances after Horus and his Wolves.

Then you should open the Codex Space Marines, or you have a truly warped sense of reading.

And don't they have certain Gauntlets? How about the standard bolter being the Ultima bolter? And how about the Land Raider Terminus Ultra? Thats a pretty big tank, and just three seconds of browsing. I wonder what else lie beneath the surface.

Corrections:
The Gauntlets of Ultramar are an Ultramarines relic, the only known one in the galaxy. I'm fairly sure every chapter has a relic weapon named after them/ their realm.

The Godwyn pattern bolter is actually the standard. Never heard of the Ultima pattern at all.

The Terminus Ultra is no bigger than a standard Land Raider. And is extensively used by the Ultramarines. Also, see the Land Raider Crusader, named after the Black Templars.

Yep. They really aren't as bad as the Space Wolves on the naming regard.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I don't think anyone was actually suggesting that the UM are the best, just pointed out that's what it says in the fluff, and the UM are a very well rounded competent fighting force, very disciplined, and excellent track record even from before the Heresy, and yeah, I would say they're one of the best chapters.

You just described over 90% of space Marine Chapters


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Then you should open the Codex Space Marines, or you have a truly warped sense of reading.

And don't they have certain Gauntlets? How about the standard bolter being the Ultima bolter? And how about the Land Raider Terminus Ultra? Thats a pretty big tank, and just three seconds of browsing. I wonder what else lie beneath the surface.

Corrections:
The Gauntlets of Ultramar are an Ultramarines relic, the only known one in the galaxy. I'm fairly sure every chapter has a relic weapon named after them/ their realm.

The Godwyn pattern bolter is actually the standard. Never heard of the Ultima pattern at all.

I'm fairly certain that the Ultima pattern fell out of use in favor of the Godwyn, but was, at one point, the standard.

Yeah 90% of the chapters have an excellent track record from before the Heresy...

The Ultramarines are one of the most efficient, effective, disciplined fighting forces ever. Even before the heresy they had one of the best records, I think the Luna Wolves were the only legion with more compliances, and considering Horus was the first Primarch found, you'd expect them to have a good record. The Ultramarines had their own empire of sorts, 500 worlds. The Codex Astartes is a very good guide on warfare, and was never meant to be taken as literally as some do, but even then, using the Codex is not a bad thing. Being an Ultramarine is not a bad thing. I'm sure lots of other chapters look up to them, they're prolific, theyre well known and surely that speaks for itself, they wouldn't be without having earned it. Whether or not you like them, they're damn good.

And Ultima isn't necessarily from Ultramarine is it. If it was the standard that's probably just what the Mechanicum called it. So no, they don't have a ridiculous trend as the SW or BA.

Greeeaaat, another fanboy. I'll just exit the room right after I finish this thought: the Ultramarines are the most vanilla Chapter ever. At least 50% of Chapters are modeled after them, and the rest just use the common sense of a supersoldier and USE THE CODEX ASTARTES AS A TACTICS BIBLE LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. 90% of Chapters are an effective, well-rounded fighting force, due to the Codex Astartes being forced upon them; the outliers being those who specialize. Hell, even the Blood Angels are a well-rounded, effective fighting force; they're almost entirely codex compliant.

Right, so because I quite like the Ultramarines I'm immediately dismissed as a 'fanboy'? Awesome. There's no point even trying then.

No one has the codex forced upon them. They don't have to follow it, or follow all of it. Look at the SW. Look at the various other chapters that don't follow it to the letter. My point is, following the codex isn't inherantly a bad thing.

And if 90% of chapters are also effective well rounded forces why is it the Ultramarines that are constantly dismissed?

And what's wrong with being vanilla and well rounded anyway?

 ImAGeek wrote:
Right, so because I quite like the Ultramarines I'm immediately dismissed as a 'fanboy'? Awesome. There's no point even trying then.

No one has the codex forced upon them. They don't have to follow it, or follow all of it. Look at the SW. Look at the various other chapters that don't follow it to the letter. My point is, following the codex isn't inherantly a bad thing.

And if 90% of chapters are also effective well rounded forces why is it the Ultramarines that are constantly dismissed?

And what's wrong with being vanilla and well rounded anyway?

I don't think you understood what I wrote, but I'll give you a hint. The argument was about a boatload of other Chapters looking up to the Ultramarines as the best of the best of the best, and you said it was due to them being a well-rounded, highly effective fighting force. I refuted this statement, as that describes just about every Chapter. I apologize if I come off as condescending.

As far as Ultramarines being dismissed, it's mainly because they're a.) Mary Sues b.) Have a gak-ton of plot armour c.) Just like over 50% of other Marines; too bland, no unique flavor.

They do have unique flavour though. I'm guessing you haven't read their Heresy stuff, because I didn't like them before I did, but at the end of the day, they're all Space Marines, they either are quite similar, or you get a ridiculous parody like the Space Wolves are. Or at least with GW writers you do. Every Space Marine has plot armour. SW are just as Mary Sue as the UM. The UM have a 10,000 year history of generally getting the job done, that's why other chapters would look up to them. And other chapters are as well rounded and efficient as them because of the Codex, which was written by Guilliman. So yeah, other chapters are as efficient, but the UM did it first.

But seeing as I'm just a fanboy, im sure none of this is going to be taken into consideration.

Also, it's okay not to like something, but dismissing everyone who does as a fanboy is not necesary.

For me, it's a tie between Blood Angels, Ultras and Space Wolves, each from a different PoV.

Blood Angels I love as their history and nature are a brilliant example of tragic heroism, from each Brother fighting the Thirst to Sanguinis's sacrifice and the stain it has left on the Chapter. The idea of them knowing they are ultimately doomed, but not once being tempted to turn from their duty, is just awesomely inspiring.

Ultras I like from an out-of-universe perspective, due to the irony of what they have become. Considering how their Primarch hailed flexibility and adaptation, and how now they are among the more contrained Chapters in terms of Doctrine (to the point where anyone innovative is actively shunned, see Ventris, Titus from the game and Sicarius to some extent), it's a representation of the IoM as a whole, so far fallen to a twisted ideal of its golden age.

And Space Wolves are just 40k personified. The over-the-topness, the legends and even their inconsistencies perfectly sum up the 'turn it to 11' nature of the setting.

 ImAGeek wrote:
They do have unique flavour though. I'm guessing you haven't read their Heresy stuff, because I didn't like them before I did, but at the end of the day, they're all Space Marines, they either are quite similar, or you get a ridiculous parody like the Space Wolves are. Or at least with GW writers you do. Every Space Marine has plot armour. SW are just as Mary Sue as the UM. The UM have a 10,000 year history of generally getting the job done, that's why other chapters would look up to them. And other chapters are as well rounded and efficient as them because of the Codex, which was written by Guilliman. So yeah, other chapters are as efficient, but the UM did it first.

But seeing as I'm just a fanboy, im sure none of this is going to be taken into consideration.

1.)Space Wolves have many examples of being duped, falling to Chaos, etc. Whereas the Ultramarines have an endless string of victories without a SINGLE major defeat or conspiracy in TEN THOUSAND GEARS
2.) Most Chapters have a 10k year history of getting the job done, otherwise the Space Marine Chapters would have been disbanded, or they wouldn't have created any new Chapters after the Second Founding.

It's interesting that if you like the Ultramarines as much as anyone likes other Chapters, you get labeled a fanboy.

Is there such a thing as an Ultramarines hateboy?

Every single one of the major Chapters has had some part of their character blown out of proportion by bad writing. For Ultramarines it's being the golden boys, for Blood Angels it's bloody, blood, blood blood. For Space Wolves it's having Santa Claus as their Chapter master and everything wolfy, etc.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Every single one of the major Chapters has had some part of their character blown out of proportion by bad writing. For Ultramarines it's being the golden boys, for Blood Angels it's bloody, blood, blood blood. For Space Wolves it's having Santa Claus as their Chapter master and everything wolfy, etc.

I love the raven guard, but instead of being marines that like to use careful planning, concealment and sudden strikes to disrupt and outmaneuver the enemy they're all invisible ninjas with double lightning claws and jump packs

 AegisGrimm wrote:
It's interesting that if you like the Ultramarines as much as anyone likes other Chapters, you get labeled a fanboy.

Is there such a thing as an Ultramarines hateboy?

Every single one of the major Chapters has had some part of their character blown out of proportion by bad writing. For Ultramarines it's being the golden boys, for Blood Angels it's bloody, blood, blood blood. For Space Wolves it's having Santa Claus as their Chapter master and everything wolfy, etc.

Tell me about it. I can see why people wouldn't like them (mainly due to bad writing) but it's almost at meme level now, the dislike for the Ultramarines.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
It's interesting that if you like the Ultramarines as much as anyone likes other Chapters, you get labeled a fanboy.

Is there such a thing as an Ultramarines hateboy?

Every single one of the major Chapters has had some part of their character blown out of proportion by bad writing. For Ultramarines it's being the golden boys, for Blood Angels it's bloody, blood, blood blood. For Space Wolves it's having Santa Claus as their Chapter master and everything wolfy, etc.

Tell me about it. I can see why people wouldn't like them (mainly due to bad writing) but it's almost at meme level now, the dislike for the Ultramarines.

I think many of the fans paint everything as hatred. I mean just not thinking of the Ultramarines as awesome means you get painted as a hater. The truth in general is more complex.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
It's interesting that if you like the Ultramarines as much as anyone likes other Chapters, you get labeled a fanboy.

Is there such a thing as an Ultramarines hateboy?

Every single one of the major Chapters has had some part of their character blown out of proportion by bad writing. For Ultramarines it's being the golden boys, for Blood Angels it's bloody, blood, blood blood. For Space Wolves it's having Santa Claus as their Chapter master and everything wolfy, etc.

Tell me about it. I can see why people wouldn't like them (mainly due to bad writing) but it's almost at meme level now, the dislike for the Ultramarines.

I think many of the fans paint everything as hatred. I mean just not thinking of the Ultramarines as awesome means you get painted as a hater. The truth in general is more complex.

I've never seen anyone ridiculed or called a hater for not liking the Ultramarines, and I've often seen people who like them be called fanboys and such. Even in this thread, I put forward a statement about them and immediately all I got was 'oh great, another fanboy...'

I wouldn't mind, but it's perfectly okay to be a fan of the space wolves, or the blood Angels, or any other chapter but if you like the Ultramarines 'oh no another smurf fanboi'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Every single one of the major Chapters has had some part of their character blown out of proportion by bad writing. For Ultramarines it's being the golden boys, for Blood Angels it's bloody, blood, blood blood. For Space Wolves it's having Santa Claus as their Chapter master and everything wolfy, etc.

I love the raven guard, but instead of being marines that like to use careful planning, concealment and sudden strikes to disrupt and outmaneuver the enemy they're all invisible ninjas with double lightning claws and jump packs

Yeah. I mean that's okay in one off cases (I adore Sharrowkyn from the HH novels and you pretty much described him except he uses two power swords not LCs) but in general they're more sensible. I don't suppose you've read their fluff from the Extermination book? It's pretty excellent, as is most of that book, and the other 2.