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 Desubot wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
What if they were Vampire Zombies?

In Some countries that's what vampires are.

OT: Seems insane that 5 police man cant take down 1 homeless dude after a tazor. ether they are fresh desk jockeys out for a field run or the homeless guy is on some crazy stuff.

Bath Salts

 Desubot wrote:
or the homeless guy is on some crazy stuff.

Which isn't exactly uncommon. Adrenaline also can let you do something you shouldn't normally be able to do.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
or the homeless guy is on some crazy stuff.

Which isn't exactly uncommon. Adrenaline also can let you do something you shouldn't normally be able to do.

Adrenaline doesn't help against a taser attack if you're untrained. Adrenaline can help if you are trained and your muscle memory takes over. Realistically, the only chance to counter a taser (gun) attack is to remove one of the probes. If this is possible, depends on where you have been hit, then you can attempt to take it down / off or break the cables...if you can still move your hands. But in the end, most of the time, you're out of luck.

Maybe Taser may not have penetrated sufficiently because of clothing etc?

 KiloFiX wrote:
Maybe Taser may not have penetrated sufficiently because of clothing etc?

Ultimately we know jack gak

Its possible and has happens when loose clothing gets in the way.

We have also seen a few instances where the taser doesn't effect the guy at all even with direct contact.

Though my favorite taser video is of that one very buff officer that gets tazed yells like a choir boy

Screw it, forget the monthly executions. Let's show everyone why America is the best: heads on stakes!

Hmmmm... What about heads on steaks?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Hmmmm... What about heads on steaks?

Count me out if it is anything like head cheese!

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 von Hohenstein wrote:
IF someone points a gun a a policeman and doesn't drop it after being told to do so - well ....

IF a old, underfed homeless guy is able to get a gun while being arrested be FIVE policemen, well .... maybe your policemen need more/better training?

Or the perp is on drugs.

I have been part of an 8 person dogpile of a guy on PCP who was able to come of the ground with all of us on top of him. That was after he ripped the padded wall from the cell that was secured with giant anchors into the concrete. During that fight he was able to grab the baton of one of the officers from his belt.

Reminds me of a story my Pop likes to tell about a man running down a hallway at Charity while pulling two EMTs and gurney, which he happened to be strapped to, at the time. Makes me glad I'm aiming for Peds.

Anyway, to the OT, it's always horribly sad to hear about someone being shot, especially when it involves an officer. That being said, it seems, based on what had been mentioned, that the shooting was likely justified (horrible word to use, but it works). I'll wait to see how the story unfolds before I really formalize an opinion on this, though.

 Smacks wrote:
I would like to point out the impossibility of grabbing a police officers gun, if he isn't carrying one. The presence of the guns in this case is what caused the situation to escalate to where someone died.

Irrelevant, as unless the political landscape of the US changes drastically, a weapon will always be there. Worry about the things we can change first before the things we will likely never be able to, at least not within the foreseeable future.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
But isn't that what batons are for, was a gun necessary?

I can't remember the last time I've seen a cop carry a night stick. Nowadays (around here at least) they carry a collapsible steel baton, which can kill and maim fairly easily. Would have been a bad decision to use that in a 5 on 1 pileup. Cop swings with one of those, hobo dips out the way, and he winds up cracking open another officers skull.

 djones520 wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Smacks wrote:
I would like to point out the impossibility of grabbing a police officers gun, if he isn't carrying one. The presence of the guns in this case is what caused the situation to escalate to where someone died.

If a person grabs or tries to grab a police officer's gun, and that person is subsequently shot as a direct consequence of that action, it is that person's own fault. "Don't grab a police officer's weapon" is not a high bar to overcome.

Neither is subduing a man in a 1v5 fight. But, here we are.....

So tell me about your experience of subduing a man who had just shrugged a taser off. You're speaking with such absolute certainty, you obviously have personal knowledge of this.

I have never had to subdue a homeless man before who has been hit by a taser. I have however had to subdue patients with mental illnesses who have shrugged off drugs meant to keep them calm and are actively throwing punches and flailing at me. It took me (I am not a big guy) and three tiny nurses.

Does this work?

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Smacks wrote:
I would like to point out the impossibility of grabbing a police officers gun, if he isn't carrying one. The presence of the guns in this case is what caused the situation to escalate to where someone died.

If a person grabs or tries to grab a police officer's gun, and that person is subsequently shot as a direct consequence of that action, it is that person's own fault. "Don't grab a police officer's weapon" is not a high bar to overcome.

Neither is subduing a man in a 1v5 fight. But, here we are.....

So tell me about your experience of subduing a man who had just shrugged a taser off. You're speaking with such absolute certainty, you obviously have personal knowledge of this.

I have never had to subdue a homeless man before who has been hit by a taser. I have however had to subdue patients with mental illnesses who have shrugged off drugs meant to keep them calm and are actively throwing punches and flailing at me. It took me (I am not a big guy) and three tiny nurses.

Does this work?

Nope, they weren't going for your gun.

1 homeless crackhead vs 5 cops isn't that impressive, this meth head managed beat on 15 cops in a bathroom while pleasuring himself. Evidently he was hard and dangerous.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=28f_1388852964

When somebody is on drugs they don't register pain like normal and certainly aren't in their right mind which lets them do stuff and endure things that'd stop a normal person many time over. I've seen somebody on meth run an entire city block after breaking free of 8 cops all the while he had a shattered leg with the bone sticking clear out of his calf. It's not uncommon for them to drop dead from their injuries once they come down off their high, but while high they don't feel a thing.


This one is just nuts, can't even tell how many cops are there and the guy even manages not to die.

Yeah, you think all those stories of Viking Berserkers are exaggeration? Nope, drugs man! All the drugs!

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, you think all those stories of Viking Berserkers are exaggeration? Nope, drugs man! All the drugs!

I thought it was a staff.

 stanman wrote:
1 homeless crackhead vs 5 cops isn't that impressive, this meth head managed beat on 15 cops in a bathroom while pleasuring himself. Evidently he was hard and dangerous.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=28f_1388852964

When somebody is on drugs they don't register pain like normal and certainly aren't in their right mind which lets them do stuff and endure things that'd stop a normal person many time over. I've seen somebody on meth run an entire city block after breaking free of 8 cops all the while he had a shattered leg with the bone sticking clear out of his calf. It's not uncommon for them to drop dead from their injuries once they come down off their high, but while high they don't feel a thing.


This one is just nuts, can't even tell how many cops are there and the guy even manages not to die.

That was awesome. Although, I'm not sure what you mean by not die, they shot him with paintballs.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, you think all those stories of Viking Berserkers are exaggeration? Nope, drugs man! All the drugs!

I thought it was a staff.

What do you think they smoked the drugs out of?

 jreilly89 wrote:


That was awesome. Although, I'm not sure what you mean by not die, they shot him with paintballs.

The fact that they managed to use only tasers and riot rounds and not use their guns was pretty impressive, when he kept moving for as long as he did it shows that somebody can take a lot of non-lethal force and keep fighting. (had there been only a few officers he probably would not have been able to be subdued) Usually these type of situations resolve in a much more grim and bloody fashion. Given that he's also black, it shows an extra amount of restraint being used by the police in that video, were it in LA or NY he probably would have died in a hail of bullets as being black typically puts you on the short list of resolution options. There's plenty of those types of shootings on video as well but with Dakka being kid friendly it isn't the place to post those.

It was on the news in Germany as well. They said, that there are around 1500 homeless people living in that area. WHAT?!? 1500 humans have to sleep on the street and no one cares?? What are you paying taxes for? Lockheed Martin?
Are you gonna tell me, that the richest national economy on this planet is not able to provide basic food and shelter for it's citizens? Is that true, or did the newsagent got some numbers wrong?

A lot of homeless people in the US aren't homeless due to money issues. A very high percentage of them are suffering form severe mental issues or drugs problems (often they use drugs to self medicate) Because of those issues they are not capable of integrating within normal society so they live on the streets. Skid Row in LA tends to have a very highly concentrated population of homeless as it's one of the few areas in the city that has rent controlled housing, it's also the center of much of the city's drug activity as well as community outreach programs so that's where the people who are down and out end up staying as they get kicked out of the more affluent areas.

There are a lot of outreach and public housing programs at work in the area, but most require sobriety in order to receives services and test them to see if they are high or drunk, sadly most of the people who need those services can't keep clean enough to stay there for long.

Check out this documentary it's a pretty eye opening review of the complex issues at work there

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1426386/



1,500 homeless might sound shocking but consider that LA has a population of almost 3.9 million people, compared to the city population it's a fairly small percentage. California is also one of the largest welfare states in the US, which draws a lot of poor and homeless that are seeking help from those programs and it also has a climate where they won't freeze to death like they would in Chicago or New York. LA is also a major epicenter for the drug trades. Florida has an incredibly large homeless population for many of the same reasons.

You can have all the public care programs in the world, but when it comes to dealing with very severe cases of addiction and mental illness (and in lots of cases; both) there are some people that will always remain beyond the ability to be helped. It's not an excuse to stop offering help and we should always try to help people whenever we can, but there's always some people who refuse help that's offered or simply can't function even with constant care. Addiction and mental illness really feths people up.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I mean... Couldn't they think of any other way to stop him reaching for that gun except shooting him? Maybe they need more training in how to restrain people? Doesn't the US police carry pepper spray, batons etc. for restraining when their taser does not work?

If Tasers don't work on a subject then pepper spray and batons aren't going to work either.

Well, if you break his wrists or arms with a baton, he is at the very least not going to grab any guns.

@stanman: Thanks for the explanation.

A little digging into his background: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/details-questions-emerge-on-homeless-man-shot-by-la-police/ar-BBid8ez?ocid=mailsignout


If he's already done jail time, been in a mental unit, and is living under a stolen identity it may have triggered a violent reaction to the police for fear of returning to prison. Sometimes people would prefer to take their chances of dying while fighting the cops over returning to jail.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I mean... Couldn't they think of any other way to stop him reaching for that gun except shooting him? Maybe they need more training in how to restrain people? Doesn't the US police carry pepper spray, batons etc. for restraining when their taser does not work?

If Tasers don't work on a subject then pepper spray and batons aren't going to work either.

Well, if you break his wrists or arms with a baton, he is at the very least not going to grab any guns.

Not true. If you're hopped up on something you can easily disregard broken bones. You would literally have to shatter their arms and hands beyond repair to prevent them from being used.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I mean... Couldn't they think of any other way to stop him reaching for that gun except shooting him? Maybe they need more training in how to restrain people? Doesn't the US police carry pepper spray, batons etc. for restraining when their taser does not work?

If Tasers don't work on a subject then pepper spray and batons aren't going to work either.

Well, if you break his wrists or arms with a baton, he is at the very least not going to grab any guns.

Not true. If you're hopped up on something you can easily disregard broken bones. You would literally have to shatter their arms and hands beyond repair to prevent them from being used.

That is a better solution than just killing the guy, no?
Also, with broken finger bones, it is really hard to bend them far enough to pull a trigger, because there are no muscles in the finger itself.

Maybe I'm draconian but I feel like if someone is resisting arrest with force (i.e. fighting with cops), then cops shouldn't really have to go out of their way to try to keep that person alive at the risk of their own safety.

Cops want to get back to their families alive too.

 KiloFiX wrote:
Maybe I'm draconian but I feel like if someone is resisting arrest with force (i.e. fighting with cops), then cops shouldn't really have to go out of their way to try to keep that person alive at the risk of their own safety.

Cops want to get back to their families alive too.

Have you ever been in a physical fight? If so does that mean the person fighting with you was attempting to murder you?

Police should be able to defend themselves, and others, with deadly force if their life is in danger. Not just because someone is fighting them, but because their life is in danger. Of course their own perception of their risk will be a factor there.

 d-usa wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:
Maybe I'm draconian but I feel like if someone is resisting arrest with force (i.e. fighting with cops), then cops shouldn't really have to go out of their way to try to keep that person alive at the risk of their own safety.

Cops want to get back to their families alive too.

Have you ever been in a physical fight? If so does that mean the person fighting with you was attempting to murder you?

Police should be able to defend themselves, and others, with deadly force if their life is in danger. Not just because someone is fighting them, but because their life is in danger. Of course their own perception of their risk will be a factor there.

Since you asked:

I've been in a great many physical fights - one of which was in jail. I've been shot at on more than one occasion. I've been stabbed twice.

The next time someone tries to fight me, I'm going to run away but if I can't, then I'm not going to hesitate to shoot; instead of trying to spend time to determine if they're really trying to kill me or not and the appropriate level of force.

On one occasion, I had SWAT break down the door of my house. They were looking for a kidnap victim but had gotten the address wrong. I (legally) carry a handgun on my person but when SWAT showed up, there and there I didn't hesitate, I didnt argue my innocence, I didnt resist and most importantly, I didnt even try to disarm. I went straight to the ground and put my hands on my head. They threw me in jail before figuring out that they had the wrong house and wrong guy and let me go. But not before some dude decided to fight me in jail.

From personal experience, both resisting arrest and taking time to determine the appropriate level of force to use, is very risky to everyone.

That said, you can argue, and I may accept that cops should be held to a higher standard. But remember they're humans with families too.

 KiloFiX wrote:
Maybe I'm draconian but I feel like if someone is resisting arrest with force (i.e. fighting with cops), then cops shouldn't really have to go out of their way to try to keep that person alive at the risk of their own safety.

Cops want to get back to their families alive too.

Going to have to disagree with you here...LEOs signed up to "protect and serve." It is the job of Law Enforcement to PROTECT and SERVE the public, not to get home safe as a primary consideration, and definitely not to kill them.

There are plenty of people out there who are willing to extort money from you for personal benefit, and who weigh self-preservation very strongly. These people are also known as criminals. If LE expects to be viewed differently from criminals who do basically the same thing but without state-sponsorship and legal legitimacy, they need to accept the fact that they serve the community; the community does not exist for their benefit. If they want to walk around all jocked up on gear and testosterone claiming they have a dangerous job, then let them actually do the dangerous job of protecting the community. As it is, these cases highlight the fact that many are scared children who shoot first and think later, knowing that they'll be protected by the system.

 KiloFiX wrote:

The next time someone tries to fight me, I'm going to run away but if I can't, then I'm not going to hesitate to shoot; instead of trying to spend time to determine if they're really trying to kill me or not and the appropriate level of force.

Thank you for helping the anti-gun crowd make a case against the right to self defense .