Why don't pistols use profile in CC?

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**Zewrath**

Ghazkuul wrote:
its because you get to shoot the pistol in the shooting phase and then again in CC, your doubling its shot out put per turn.

Which would be a less flawed arguement, if it weren't for the fact that the 1 shot (usually once per game) is priced at 15 points, which is in the absurd end of being overpriced. Shooting 1 shot, with 67% chance to hit and 16% to overheat, then overwatch with 16% chance to hit (and overheat) and then use it in CC with (normally) a 50% chance to hit, is FAR from the OP nightmare pedestal you seem to put the plasma pistol on. Especially not with a pricetag that either doubles or nearly quadruples the total cost of the model that can take it.

**kingbobbito**

Ghazkuul wrote:
its because you get to shoot the pistol in the shooting phase and then again in CC, your doubling its shot out put per turn.

Which would still make the pistol slightly weaker than an axe, which costs the same. As I said, less than a 50% chance to score a wound with the pistol in CC, combined with a slightly higher chance of scoring one during shooting. Versus, the axe, which will score at least 1 wound (or more, if anyone that's actually meant to be in CC has it). The pistol shot that's made during the shooting phase could also be screened by a weaker model, leaving only that poor chance of getting a wound against a character in CC. Versus, the axe, which will score at least 1 wound in CC against the character.

Again, literally the only time that this makes the pistol better is against MC and vehicles when you don't have melta bombs (which still have a role, as they outperform the pistol against vehicles, especially things like LRs).

As for things like sisters, you're losing initiative to get that S4 shot. I3 means you're only losing out against marines, eldar, and daemons. Using the pistol would mean guard, necrons, orks, tau all hit before you.

**Ghazkuul**

every example so far that everyone has given has been imperial. And thats why i think its a bad idea.

**Whiskey144**

Ghazkuul wrote:
every example so far that everyone has given has been imperial. And thats why i think its a bad idea.

So in other words, you're just butthurt that Orks don't get cool pistols. I'm a little short on time right now, but I'm sure we could point out a lot of situations where such a change would benefits things like, say, Wyches. Which are widely acknowledged to be one of the worst assault units in the entire game.

**Zewrath**

Ghazkuul wrote:
every example so far that everyone has given has been imperial. And thats why i think its a bad idea.

You're being very biased then.

The suggestion I made (the one with the pistol substituting 1 available attack but not if it's the only attack left to substitute) would be a straight buff to your slugga boys, with 2/3 normal S3/4 (depending on charge) and 1 additional S4 AP5 attack.

**AnomanderRake**

Ghazkuul wrote:
every example so far that everyone has given has been imperial. And thats why i think its a bad idea.

Fusion pistols. Particle casters. Blast pistols. Splinter pistols. 'Nids get nothing and Orks get only a bit but everyone else has bonuses.

**Alcibiades**

If you could use pistols in close combat at full statline, it would make close combat weapons pointless.

Think about it. A plasma pistol is an AP2 weapon. That would strike at Initiative.

Any "realistic" depiction of firearms makes melee weapons redundant-- just like in real life!

So if you want your chainswords and power axes, don't let pistols use their profiles in melee combat.

**Jefffar**

I'm trying to figure out how a model who can only expect to fire a pistol once at a target that isn't actively trying to knock the gun from his hand or wrestle the weapon or whatever suddenly gets to shoot two to four times when opponent starts swinging at him with a power sword.

If the user of the pistol only got to shoot it once and had to give up all his other CC attacks to do so (special characters with Cypher notwithstanding due to their special rules) then I could see it making sense.

Otherwise, all you're doing is making all Marines AP5 or better in CC

**kingbobbito**

Alcibiades wrote:If you could use pistols in close combat at full statline, it would make close combat weapons pointless.

Think about it. A plasma pistol is an AP2 weapon. That would strike at Initiative.

Any "realistic" depiction of firearms makes melee weapons redundant-- just like in real life! So if you want your chainswords and power axes, don't let pistols use their profiles in melee combat.

Jefffar wrote:I'm trying to figure out how a model who can only expect to fire a pistol once at a target that isn't actively trying to knock the gun from his hand or wrestle the weapon or whatever suddenly gets to shoot two to four times when opponent starts swinging at him with a power sword.

If the user of the pistol only got to shoot it once and had to give up all his other CC attacks to do so (special characters with Cypher notwithstanding due to their special rules) then I could see it making sense.

Otherwise, all you're doing is making all Marines AP5 or better in CC

Did either of you read a single word of this thread?

Other than a handful, everyone has agreed that pistols would use their profile, but would only get a single unwieldy attack. Trying to get in a good shot while also dodging your opponents attacks. None of this is some crazy 4 shot kill all turbo marine, it's a guy that would otherwise have three attacks with a melee weapon getting 1 unwieldy plasma shot.

**Whiskey144**

Alcibiades wrote:
If you could use pistols in close combat at full statline, it would make close combat weapons pointless.

Think about it. A plasma pistol is an AP2 weapon. That would strike at Initiative.

Any "realistic" depiction of firearms makes melee weapons redundant-- just like in real life! So if you want your chainswords and power axes, don't let pistols use their profiles in melee combat.

Did you even read the thread? I ask because- at least IMO- most people who agree with this also tend to recommend that some/all attacks are exchanged for one pistol shot. My own opinion is that this pistol shot should additionally be "Unwieldy" when used in combat, to better represent the difficulty of getting a clean shot in the hectic environment of hand-to-hand combat.

Also consider the fact that there's quite a few things that have AP2 at initiative, and get multiple such attacks. Also, most models that can take Plasma Pistols (or the equivalent) are I3 or at best I4.

Jefffar wrote:
I'm trying to figure out how a model who can only expect to fire a pistol once at a target that isn't actively trying to knock the gun from his hand or wrestle the weapon or whatever suddenly gets to shoot two to four times when opponent starts swinging at him with a power sword.

If the user of the pistol only got to shoot it once and had to give up all his other CC attacks to do so (special characters with Cypher notwithstanding due to their special rules) then I could see it making sense.

Otherwise, all you're doing is making all Marines AP5 or better in CC

Again, nobody is suggesting that a model can fire its pistol for every attack its profile includes. The general consensus seems to be:

-Must have at least 2 attacks in order to make an attack with the pistol
-Exchanges one attack for only one attack with the pistol

I personally would add in "Unwieldy" for certain high-strength pistols (IE, plasma/inferno/fusion/blast), as these are comparable to slightly-better-than S3 w/ PF to S4 w/ PF, seasoning with AP1 for the melta variants. Making things like las/bolt/shuriken/splinter pistols also have "Unwieldy" would be somewhat nonsensical, due to the fact that such pistols are of middling utility- though I'd certainly love to see Wyches get the option to use their Splinter Pistols in combat in such a way, as it'd be a huge buff for them, considering how gak they are.

EDIT:

kingbobbito wrote:
Other than a handful, everyone has agreed that pistols would use their profile, but would only get a single unwieldy attack. Trying to get in a good shot while also dodging your opponents attacks. None of this is some crazy 4 shot kill all turbo marine, it's a guy that would otherwise have three attacks with a melee weapon getting 1 unwieldy plasma shot.

I'd amend it to only certain, particularly high-strength pistols, having Unwieldy. I don't think it'd be particularly broken for Las/Bolt/Shuriken/Splinter/Slugga pistols to not be Unwieldy.

**koooaei**

Ghazkuul wrote:
koooaei wrote:

As for Orks not benefitting...well they do, slightly, as all your slugga boyz now get one S4 attack with an AP value with their much better WS when they don't charge. Plus with this change, there might be more reason to put more pistols in the game in the future for more races.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

1 S4 AP6 shot per boy using WS4 OR 3 attacks per boy using WS4 S3 AP-

10 boyz shooting 10 pistols hitting on 3s = 7-8 hits and on a T4 model thats 3-4 wounds.
10 Boyz using CC attacks is 30 Attacks hitting on 3s = 20 hits S3 so wounding T4 models on a 5 = 6-7 wounds.

Why would an ork player ever choose to do with except against T7+ things? And here I would just use my Nob PK to eat it.

This proposal would benefit armies with access to powerful pistols that aren't great in close combat. Yes I am aware that not many armies can take pistols across the board, however lets take the most popular army. Space marines, instead of giving your sergeant a Power fist and a veteran upgrade you can just give him a S7 AP2 plasma pistol and he can deal with most opponents. Its not the assault elements I am worried about its the random characters rolling around the board who I want to kill to reduce leadership who will be able to ignore my armor saves and be able to kill characters in challenge with a single shot.

I have shown you how this would break CC even more and you choose to ignore them.

You compare Plasma Rifles to Pistols and how a rifle is better, then I point out the entire point behind equipping a pistol and you say that no unit would use it because they don't want to be in the assault anyway. Sorry for not being clear enough, my point was that the reason for the price is because it allows units to shoot and assault and its a powerful pistol so it has to cost 10-15 points. Yeah you could take a flamer instead but I am not comparing a pistol to a flamer. (flame pistols aside). This as I have shown would benefit only 1/2 the armies in the game and if you look at the 2014 Las Vegas open winners list you will see that the list of winners is entirely the ones who would benefit from this rule change. Clearly these armies do not need anymore buffs.

We were talking about ADDITIONAL pistol attacks - not one instead of all the mellee attacks. Means 2 s3 and 1 s4 ap6 for free.

**Ghazkuul**

It would break 2+ even more. The terminator rant in this forum complains about how there is so much AP2 weapons around. This rule would allow a unit of assault marines with maxed out plasma pistols to jump to the termies, fire 3 shots killing 1-2 and then assault and kill 2-3. In return the assault marines might lose 2-3 marines but still thats 130pt unit killing a 200+ unit of termies.

**Zewrath**

Ghazkuul wrote:
It would break 2+ even more. The terminator rant in this forum complains about how there is so much AP2 weapons around. This rule would allow a unit of assault marines with maxed out plasma pistols to jump to the termies, fire 3 shots killing 1-2 and then assault and kill 2-3. In return the assault marines might lose 2-3 marines but still thats 130pt unit killing a 200+ unit of termies.

A valid consideration. But statistically speaking it would go something like:

5 ASM shoots and cause around 1.222 wounds (2 bolt pistols + 3 plasma pistols)
5 ASM attacks, this is assuming charge, in CC and cause around 1.333 wounds (12 CCW + 3 plasma pistol profile)
5 ASM attacks, this is assuming no charge, in CC and cause around 1.125 wounds (7 CCW + 3 plasma pistol profile)

So assuming best case scenario (the ASM gets to charge with no deaths to overwatch and suffer no losses in the enemy's shooting phase). A squad of 5 ASM, fully geared with 3 Plasma pistols, and nothing else, can expect to generally kill 2,555 terminators, assuming the terminators don't have storm shields.
This hardly sounds game breaking to me, and this is even in the light end of AP2 spam that terminators can normally expect to face. Your scenario also assumes that the terminators are out in the open and not in a Land Raider, or another transport, and that your opponent will somehow allow a unit with 3 sources of AP2 weapons to go forward, unmolested.

**Ghazkuul**

3 Plasma pistols hitting on 3s = 2 hits and wounding on 2s = 2 wounds. Termies get a 5++ so theres a 1/3rd chance to save one of them.

im not adding in all the fractions and the 1/6th chance to roll a 1 but realistically your going to kill 2 terminators with this in most cases. in the assault the ASM get 15 attacks and 3 are the pistol so 12 melee attacks. 6 hits and 3 wounds = 1/2 chance to kill 1 terminator, 3 pistol shots = 1-2 hits and 1-2 wounds with a 5++ = 1 more dead terminator.

And unless they make the pistol shots unwieldy to go at init 1 then that means the termies just lost 2-4 models out of a squad of usually 5.

And yes im assuming they are in the open because im explaining how it will annoy marine players even more with the AP2 spam.

**Zewrath**

Ghazkuul wrote:
3 Plasma pistols hitting on 3s = 2 hits and wounding on 2s = 2 wounds. Termies get a 5++ so theres a 1/3rd chance to save one of them.

im not adding in all the fractions and the 1/6th chance to roll a 1 but realistically your going to kill 2 terminators with this in most cases. in the assault the ASM get 15 attacks and 3 are the pistol so 12 melee attacks. 6 hits and 3 wounds = 1/2 chance to kill 1 terminator, 3 pistol shots = 1-2 hits and 1-2 wounds with a 5++ = 1 more dead terminator.

And unless they make the pistol shots unwieldy to go at init 1 then that means the termies just lost 2-4 models out of a squad of usually 5.

And yes im assuming they are in the open because im explaining how it will annoy marine players even more with the AP2 spam.

If people spend point on ASM to spam plasma, then the list will need to sacrifice something in return. Between grav guns bikers, TFC's, grav cents, smashfucker, stormtalons and stern guards and the obligatory tax troops, the 130 points you would need to spend suddenly becomes much more tight.

Besides, you're making up scenarios to prove your point. A point that falls flat because a) you're assuming anyone actually favours tac termies and not those with storm shields and b) you're assuming that the terminators are out in the open, with no transport or cover.

**Ghazkuul**

Zewrath wrote:
Ghazkuul wrote:
3 Plasma pistols hitting on 3s = 2 hits and wounding on 2s = 2 wounds. Termies get a 5++ so theres a 1/3rd chance to save one of them.

im not adding in all the fractions and the 1/6th chance to roll a 1 but realistically your going to kill 2 terminators with this in most cases. in the assault the ASM get 15 attacks and 3 are the pistol so 12 melee attacks. 6 hits and 3 wounds = 1/2 chance to kill 1 terminator, 3 pistol shots = 1-2 hits and 1-2 wounds with a 5++ = 1 more dead terminator.

And unless they make the pistol shots unwieldy to go at init 1 then that means the termies just lost 2-4 models out of a squad of usually 5.

And yes im assuming they are in the open because im explaining how it will annoy marine players even more with the AP2 spam.

If people spend point on ASM to spam plasma, then the list will need to sacrifice something in return. Between grav guns bikers, TFC's, grav cents, smashfucker, stormtalons and stern guards and the obligatory tax troops, the 130 points you would need to spend suddenly becomes much more tight.

Besides, you're making up scenarios to prove your point. A point that falls flat because a) you're assuming anyone actually favours tac termies and not those with storm shields and b) you're assuming that the terminators are out in the open, with no transport or cover.

\

Not trying to assume anything, I am just pointing out that this game has massive amounts of AP2 weapons already and by buffing a few more of them to increase shot capacity per turn you are making 2+ armor unviable. You can change terminators in the open to Meganobz in the assault or the TEQ in any army. My point is that it will cause to many problems with the game as it stands, minor tweaks are ok this is a major one that will require significant changes across the board.

**DCannon4Life**

CC is boring as p*$$. I welcome anything that makes it more dynamic.

Trading one close combat attack for ONE shot with a pistol, at initiative step 1 just isn't game breaking when compared to stupid crap like Draigo Stars, or Lias Issodon's Warlord Trait Smorgasbord, or 'tanking' wounds because your LOL Chapter Master happens to be standing 'closest' the unit firing at his unit.

The rules do not have to be a Simulation (i.e. bedded in reality), nor should they be. The rules don't have to be Fluff Compliant either. The rules should, however, reflect the fluff whenever possible (reasonably possible--whatever that means).

Using the pistol's profile for ONE attack in CC would bring the rules into better alignment with the fluff, without being game breaking. So, it's an admirable idea to do so.

**Ghazkuul**

If they do it then every race would have to receive a pistol similar to the Plasma/inferno to make it more balanced for everyone. Right now i believe the most powerful pistol an ork can take is Mek only.

**Whiskey144**

So in other words you've finally realized that this isn't actually broken, and would simply like to see Orks get cool pistols too.

Would have been nice if you'd just said that from the start instead of trying to go all "Orks don't get cool pistols, so everyone else's cool pistols have to be gak".

**Martel732**

I've been not taking special pistols for so long that I never even considered them for a "fix".

**Whiskey144**

TBH, I'd argue that special pistols occupy a very weird spot; you buy them to get a special pistol shot... but most of the time you're going to buy them for a CC-oriented unit.

Which will then proceed to pretty much waste most of that investment when it gets locked into combat for a turn or two, and doesn't actually have the opportunity to fire the pistol more than once- if that, considering that the melta-variation pistols and the DE Blast Pistol are all of 6" of range.

**DarknessEternal**

Can I get Shuriken Catapults to fire in Assault too? They only get to fire once or fewer times per game also.

**kingbobbito**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Can I get Shuriken Catapults to fire in Assault too? They only get to fire once or fewer times per game also.

For starters, they get two shots in the shooting phase. AKA firing more than once. Oh, and the fact that they're not a pistol. Next time try to think a little before you make a suggestion that in no way applies to the discussion.

The goal of this all isn't to make ranged units better in melee, it's to make melee units better in melee.

**DarknessEternal**

kingbobbito wrote:

The goal of this all isn't to make ranged units better in melee, it's to make melee units better in melee.

Based on biased logic that primarily benefits the armies you actually play.

**AlmightyWalrus**

DarknessEternal wrote:
kingbobbito wrote:

The goal of this all isn't to make ranged units better in melee, it's to make melee units better in melee.

Based on biased logic that primarily benefits the armies you actually play.

As opposed to you demanding buffs to Eldar every time someone wants to improve bad units?

**Ghazkuul**

Whiskey144 wrote:
So in other words you've finally realized that this isn't actually broken, and would simply like to see Orks get cool pistols too.

Would have been nice if you'd just said that from the start instead of trying to go all "Orks don't get cool pistols, so everyone else's cool pistols have to be gak".

Or, god forbid, I was using an army I am intimately familiar with to better show my point. And no, I don't think this is a good rule I still think it is broken. This edition is shooty enough without adding this nonsense into it. Orkz don't need cool pistols, we get cool axes and chainswords and even some big metal pipes we can beat you with. My point, even though you and your marine buddies still fail to see, is that this would only benefit a few of the armies in this game and make it more unbalanced.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
To keep the scale balanced if you add something to side one you have to add something to side two. What would you propose giving to the other armies that don't use pistols like Plasma, Inferno or the DE/Eldar equivalents?

**DarknessEternal**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

As opposed to you demanding buffs to Eldar every time someone wants to improve bad units?

No one agrees any of the Eldar things I mention should be buffed, not even me. That's the point.

Using spurious logic that applies equally to those Eldar things is proof that it's poor logic.

**Martel732**

Probably the best move is to just make the pistols cheaper. Because they don't get any consideration from me as they are right now.

**Grimskul**

Martel732 wrote:
Probably the best move is to just make the pistols cheaper. Because they don't get any consideration from me as they are right now.

I'm with Martel here, simply dropping their points to reflect their limited use is better for streamlining and avoiding complicated matters concerning odd scenarios where it might result in rules issues. I definitely think if they made things like plasma pistols 10 ppm and inferno pistols 5 ppm (given that a meltagun is 10 points and has longer range). I think its best if Cypher remains the only character that can actually use his pistols in CC. There just needs to be more opportunities for models to gain access to gunslinger.

**Ghazkuul**

I wouldn't mind that upgrade that much, but as I said, every upgrade offered so far and every example has been imperial, does that mean that my KMS should cost 5pts instead of 10?

BTW as an example of why pistols are so expensive.

KMBs have twice the range and are 5pts a model
KMS are the pistol version and are 10pts a model.

Why? because you get the +1 attack in CC. thats the only reason I can think they would increase the cost.