bringing cheese to a friendly game

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**champagne_socialist**

Blacksails wrote:
champagne_socialist wrote:

Don't assume I got tabled early on in the game or even tabled at all because I never said that.

You didn't say it, but it was implied, especially when one of your examples was that being tabled on turn 2 isn't fun. That, and I'm sure you wouldn't be as upset about this if you weren't tabled.

So basically what you are saying is what I said earlier that you wouldn't follow any kind of moral code when you agree to a game, you would just turn up and spam whatever OP unit you desire without giving any kind of warning to your opponent that your list would be competitive.

First of all, a gaming moral code differs by person. What you're expecting is everyone to follow some arbitrary standard you've made up and not communicated.

Second of all, read what I wrote again. I said people should feel free to take whatever they like, unless a discussion was had that delineated what is acceptable and what isn't.

Third, 3 Vendettas and a Knight hardly classify as OP.

So if I was to arrange a game with you your thought process and the convo would go like this:
Chamagne socialist: fancy a 1500 point game on sunday
blacksails: sure lets meet at 3pm

If that's all you felt like discussing, sure. If you wanted to ensure further restrictions and have a detailed understanding of what power level is expected, than we'd talk more.

Champagne socialist thought process ' well it is just a friendly non-tournament game so even though I have 3 of these OP units and under the rules I can use all 3 I will just bring 1 because I want to keep the game friendly rather than turn it into a WAAC match.

Which is your decision to make. Nothing inherently right or wrong or superior about it.

Blacksails thought process: ' well he never asked if I was going to spam OP units and forget that it is a friendly game where the idea is to have fun so I am just going to bring whatever units I want without giving him any notice whatsoever that I am creating a cheese list, it's his own fault for not mentioning it in our conversation'.

No, because taking 3 Vendettas and a Knight are not cheese. In this scenario, my thought process would be along the lines of 'Gee, these are some cool units I'd love to use. Flyers are fairly common now, as are Knights, so my opponent probably made a list that covers the basics.'

That, and yes, it is your fault for not explaining you didn't want to face more than 1 flyer or superheavies.

Don't act morally superior for bringing a weak list.

So in essence your view is that unless your opponent specifically prohibits yo bringing cheese to a game you would bring as much cheese as possible and you would refuse to tell him before hand because he never asked. Major point being you would refuse to tell him before hand that you were going to be bringing an op cheese army so he could create a liost to give you a closer game and make the event far more fun for the both of you?

Again, cheese is incredibly subjective. I'd suggest you drop the term or this conversation isn't going to get anywhere. Further, vendettas are hardly overpowered, and Knights, while strong, should be a common consideration in list construction.

You're acting all indignant about list strength, but if I was in your opponent's shoe and read your thoughts about this scenario, I'd think pretty poorly of you. You're expecting people to conform to your arbitrary standard of fun/friendly lists without explaining what that is. I imagine the vast majority of people can't read minds, so the onus rests on your to explain to your opponent what kind of game you're looking for. Otherwise, build a better list that can handle things like Knights and Vendettas.

Maybe this is an opportunity for you to grow, rather than complain that people brought a strong list and you didn't.

I think oit is common sense that if you are going to spam op units you let your oonent know.

**Blacksails**

champagne_socialist wrote:

I think oit is common sense that if you are going to spam op units you let your oonent know.

I think its common sense that if you are going to bring a weak list incapable of dealing with three not overpowered flyers and a Knight, you let your opponent know.

**MWHistorian**

Define "spam OP units."

**office_waaagh**

champagne_socialist wrote:

I think oit is common sense that if you are going to spam op units you let your oonent know.

That sort of depends on what the standard is for your gaming group. You can get around this in future by just asking what sort of list your opponent is bringing and any friendly restrictions you plan to impose. As has been pointed out, cheese is in the eye of the beholder, and one man's "fun themed list" is another's "cheese and spam sandwich". A brief conversation when you agree to the time and place of the game can help relieve these problems, even if it's as simple as "are we allowed to run formations? Are we going to bring LoWs?" For my own part, if I wanted to run a themed list that happened to include a lot of fliers or AV14 for example, I'd give my opponent fair warning in advance, but that's because I'm nice like that and not because I consider it mandatory behaviour unless asked. (I often send my opponent an outline of my list a day or two before the game, just so we don't wind up playing rock vs. paper and waste an evening of gaming on a game that's no fun.)

Another way you can help yourself is to change up your list from game to game, models permitting. It will be harder for an opponent to tailor his list against you in future if you do that. I'd say list tailoring is permissible, although someone that brings 45 burna boyz against a tyranid or blob guard army is being rather unsporting.

My group's rules are simple: no special characters without prior agreement, no superheavies without prior agreement, no "spam lists", and no proxying models for obvious advantage (no pretending your chimeras are wyverns so you can have three of them, for example, although proxying so you can try out a unit within reason is permitted on a case-by-case basis), formations need a warning though not necessarily permission, and unbound lists have to be approved before the game in their entirety.

**EVIL INC**

We have a guy in our local area who brings cheese to every game. that is, he knows what everyone plays and exactly what models they own while he has a huge collection to choose from.
So he tailors his army with cheese that he knows his opponants are unable to counter. To every game and every game there is a "friendly" game as its just a bunch of us playing at one another's homes.
On top of this, he does not coach or give advice to the other players to help them become better players.
A while back, I spoke with one of the other players and told him that if it is not addressed, it will not change. So i brought a list with a knight a vendetta and a valkrie. I could have brought REAL cheese like a full knight army of 3 knights supported by a guard air brigade or something but I kept it medium just to give the guy competition and let them know i knew his number.
This was to demonstrate to the player i had spoken to that sometimes, when a player brings a cheese tourney style list to every single friendly game, you might have to tailor towards it to force him to lighten up or mix it up.
It could be that this is a similar case.

**insaniak**

champagne_socialist wrote:
If you turn up to your regular gaming club expecting a friendly game and your opponent has sammed any OP unit without giving you advance warning then yeh under the rules he has done nothing wrong but I know morally and under a 'gentlemans' agreement he has.

Why? Because he should have psychically devined what you consider unacceptable despite you not actually communicating this to him?

champagne_socialist wrote:
So basically what you are saying is what I said earlier that you wouldn't follow any kind of moral code when you agree to a game, you would just turn up and spam whatever OP unit you desire without giving any kind of warning to your opponent that your list would be competitive.

No, what people are saying is that if you don't communicate with your opponent and agree on any sort of restrictions, then it's not unreasonable for your opponent to think that there are no restrictions in place on his choice of army.

'Morals' don't enter into it. You simply can't expect your opponent to know what you consider a fair and 'friendly' army if you don't actually discuss this with them.

It's unreasonable to expect your opponent to be a mind reader.

**Peregrine**

champagne_socialist wrote:
Champagne socialist thought process ' well it is just a friendly non-tournament game so even though I have 3 of these OP units and under the rules I can use all 3 I will just bring 1 because I want to keep the game friendly rather than turn it into a WAAC match.

And this is your problem: you made a whole bunch of assumptions about how the game was going to work based on nothing more than the fact that there wasn't a cash prize, and you didn't bother to inform your opponent that you'd made these assumptions. If you want to play a game between armies of a certain power level (let's stop calling it "cheese" vs. "fun") then you need to clearly state that desire and negotiate with your opponent. If you just assume that they're going to bring the kind of army that you want to play against and get outraged if they don't then you are being unreasonable.

**TheKbob**

Warhammer 40k would be better off adopting smaller points games and two list pairs with character/unique wargear restrictions. And also ditching the "play to lose" mentality hidden inside the "Forge the Narrative" nonsense that people hitch their cart on.

It's an imbalanced game to the extreme. People playing a game will naturally want to play to win. The person calling "cheese" is playing to lose, or rather wants to win by their own definitions and expects other to follow that versus what's plainly in the rulebook. The failing is that the 40k rules gives those wafflers the power to pitch a fit to do so instead of being hard and fast like most other games and allowing diversion for anyone wanting to do so otherwise.

So no cheese exists. Until there's rules that specifically disallow spam, its part of the game. And in fact, the rules for 7E made that notion even more prevalent.

**Byte**

Imperial Knights aren't a LoW. I've seen that posted in this thread several times.

**The Imperial Answer**

Byte wrote:
Imperial Knights aren't a LoW. I've seen that posted in this thread several times.

They are for a Mechanicum army.

**Byte**

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Byte wrote:
Imperial Knights aren't a LoW. I've seen that posted in this thread several times.

They are for a Mechanicum army.

OK, I guess I'm assuming everyone isn't talking about 30k.

**brendan**

@OP: The answer is OF COURSE he should have asked or at least gave warning. The guy knew what he was up to, as evidenced by his later comments. Many of these replies imply that being a game-spoiling arse is okay because of 7th edition or whatever... Gimme a break.

**GrafWattenburg**

What is "cheese"? Grav-Cent-Draigo-Loth-star? Wave-Serpent Spam? D-weapons with Ignore Cover? Reaver Titans?

I can understand some things not being fun to face when you're not expecting it, but 3 mediocre flyers and a single knight is far, far, far from "OP. Any decent list should be able to deal with it with a competent general.

**Las**

A simple "sorry, dude I'm not going to play against that, I've got nothing in my list to deal with that. If you have another list on hand I'd be happy to play it, but I'd rather play against that guy over there." Goes a long way.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Sorry OP, but there is no reason why your opponent shouldn't have been allowed to take their list against yours if you didn't specify the limitations. They could've taken an all Riptide list, and you still wouldn't have been able to complain morally as, without further clarification and house ruling, that list is also legal.
Besides, I could make a fluffy high tier army that would be very fun to play as: All Titans army!

**office_waaagh**

brendan wrote:
@OP: The answer is OF COURSE he should have asked or at least gave warning. The guy knew what he was up to, as evidenced by his later comments. Many of these replies imply that being a game-spoiling arse is okay because of 7th edition or whatever... Gimme a break.

I think the consensus is that the actual list the OP's opponent brought was not really over-powered or cheesy, and that if the OP wanted to impose restrictions on army selection above what's included in the rules he should have explicitly said so in advance. It's not like the guy brought FW stuff or anything especially game-breaking. It was a list that the OP couldn't really deal with, but that doesn't make it cheesy. By all means, ask him to limit himself to units that won't just wipe you out turn two as a friendly compromise, but do so explicitly in advance. He's not being "that

guy" by bringing three vendettas and a knight, units that are tough to deal with but by no means fundamentally unbalanced. It's not like he brought five wave serpents, or four flyrants, or three wraithknights, or three riptides, etc.

**Martel732**

Vendettas are a pretty fair unit now, so that the leaves the knight. AV 13 6HP with a directional shield? Hardly OP.

**Wulfmar**

Bringing cheese to a game of only acceptable if you bring enough cheese and crackers along for everyone. Otherwise you should just leave and go have your picnic alone in the carpark.

In reality though, only take it if it's for a competition - otherwise you'll likely sour a good game for the opponent.

**Grey Templar**

Here is a question, you might have assumed it was a game where you wouldn't bring powerful stuff. But your friend might have had the opposite assumption.

Also, a friendly game doesn't mean you aren't trying to win. It means two buddies are going to play a game they enjoy, which doesn't mean they won't bring their best list.

**Wulfmar**

Yea it's true I might assume it's a game where you wouldn't bring powerful stuff and sure my friend might choose to bring some Stilton - but that's their choice and it just makes it clearer that they aren't as attune to what people think is relaxed or otherwise - I'd still play them. Either they will realise just how cheesy it is and choose something else in future, or they are a cheesemonger - in which case feel free to escalate.

That's why it helps to play people multiple times and get to know them.

That and talking through lists beforehand and coming up with a narrative / story for it that doesn't involve super heavies and their ilk (etc)

**Grey Templar**

See, this is what doesn't make sense.

You're just coming from the assumption that that point of view is wrong. When you should also consider his position.

Maybe he wanted to have a more competitive game, and then you show up with this soft list that couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag. Thats not fun for either party, and you are both at fault.

You should clearly communicate what you want to play beforehand. And ditch the attitude that bringing competitive options is "beardy" "bad" or "wrong". Frankly, I think not bringing your absolute best is insulting to your opponent.

**Wulfmar**

Grey Templar wrote:
See, this is what doesn't make sense.

You're just coming from the assumption that that point of view is wrong. When you should also consider his position.

Maybe he wanted to have a more competitive game, and then you show up with this soft list that couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag. Thats not fun for either party, and you are both at fault.

You should clearly communicate what you want to play beforehand. And ditch the attitude that bringing competitive options is "beardy" "bad" or "wrong". Frankly, I think not bringing your absolute best is insulting to your opponent.

Telling me I'm wrong doesn't make you right.

You seem to be missing the point - I talk to my friends and we come up with what's acceptable together over time as we play with each other. You work out what someone likes to play by playing with them. Lists will change as people buy new models based on looks or stats.

I'll also say it now, making out that I have a bad attitude, that I assume being competitive is ''beardy, bad or wrong'' is really jerkish. You should read what you're writing to people and assess your tone as it's insulting.

**Grey Templar**

Your use of the word "cheesy" has negative connotations to it. That tells me you are of the position that bringing powerful stuff is wrong.

If you aren't meaning it that way you shouldn't use that word because of its meaning.

**MWHistorian**

Wulfmar wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
See, this is what doesn't make sense.

You're just coming from the assumption that that point of view is wrong. When you should also consider his position.

Maybe he wanted to have a more competitive game, and then you show up with this soft list that couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag. Thats not fun for either party, and you are both at fault.

You should clearly communicate what you want to play beforehand. And ditch the attitude that bringing competitive options is "beardy" "bad" or "wrong". Frankly, I think not bringing your absolute best is insulting to your opponent.

Telling me I'm wrong doesn't make you right.

You seem to be missing the point - I talk to my friends and we come up with what's acceptable together over time as we play with each other. You work out what someone likes to play by playing with them. Lists will change as people buy new models based on looks or stats.

I'll also say it now, making out that I have a bad attitude, that I assume being competitive is ''beardy, bad or wrong'' is really jerkish. You should read what you're writing to people and assess your tone as it's insulting.

That attitude is common in 40k players though. "Wanting to win is bad!" That's a uniquely GW thing. You'll have to forgive him if he thought you were implying that because the OP kind of did.

**champagne_socialist**

Grey Templar wrote:
Here is a question, you might have assumed it was a game where you wouldn't bring powerful stuff. But your friend might have had the opposite assumption.

Also, a friendly game doesn't mean you aren't trying to win. It means two buddies are going to play a game they enjoy, which doesn't mean they won't bring their best list.

No but it means if you are spamming op units to let the other player know so they can make an appropriate list.

**Peregrine**

champagne_socialist wrote:
No but it means if you are spamming op units to let the other player know so they can make an appropriate list.

It means no such thing. All "friendly game" means is that we're going to play a game of 40k and there won't be any prize for the winner. It means absolutely nothing about the strength of our lists, so if you expect certain restrictions to be in place then you have the obligation to make those clear up front. It's entirely your fault if your opponent shows up with a list you don't like and you're "surprised" that they didn't read your mind and follow your arbitrary rules.

**champagne_socialist**

MWHistorian wrote:
Define "spam OP units."

Any unit which can cause a lot of damage to a specific army and is extremely tough for that said army to deal any damage to it. Or in my case as my opponent knew my army list it would be any unit that can deal a lot of damage to that list and that list would find it hard to deal damage back.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
champagne_socialist wrote:
No but it means if you are spamming op units to let the other player know so they can make an appropriate list.

It means no such thing. All "friendly game" means is that we're going to play a game of 40k and there won't be any prize for the winner. It means absolutely nothing about the strength of our lists, so if you expect certain restrictions to be in place then you have the obligation to make those clear up front. It's entirely your fault if your opponent shows up with a list you don't like and you're "surprised" that they didn't read your mind and follow your arbitrary rules.

A friendly game means that you keep it FAIR and keeping it fair means informing your opponent that you wish to try out a competitive build so that he can create an appropriate list.

**commander dante**

How to cheese:
1.play blood angels
2.fill all your DT slots with land raiders
3.???
4.profit

**Grey Templar**

champagne_socialist wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
champagne_socialist wrote:
No but it means if you are spamming op units to let the other player know so they can make an appropriate list.

It means no such thing. All "friendly game" means is that we're going to play a game of 40k and there won't be any prize for the winner. It means absolutely nothing about the strength of our lists, so if you expect certain restrictions to be in place then you have the obligation to make those clear up front. It's entirely your fault if your opponent shows up with a list you don't like and you're "surprised" that they didn't read your mind and follow your arbitrary rules.

A friendly game means that you keep it FAIR and keeping it fair means informing your opponent that you wish to try out a competitive build so that he can create an appropriate list.

Thats an odd definition of "friendly". If I go play a pick-up game, thats friendly to me. Doesn't matter what our lists are.

**Peregrine**

champagne_socialist wrote:
Any unit which can cause a lot of damage to a specific army and is extremely tough for that said army to deal any damage to it. Or in my case as my opponent knew my army list it would be any unit that can deal a lot of damage to that list and that list would find it hard to deal damage back.

IOW, you don't have a clear definition for "overpowered unit" and you expect your opponent to read your mind about what kind of things you want them to bring.

A friendly game means that you keep it FAIR and keeping it fair means informing your opponent that you wish to try out a competitive build so that he can create an appropriate list.

No it doesn't. You keep imagining these rules about army construction, but they're still just your personal rules. If you want your next game to include a "warn me if you're bringing a competitive list" rule then you need to say "my list is pretty weak, could you try to match that power level" when you're arranging the game. If you don't make that desire explicit then you have only yourself to blame when your opponent doesn't follow your rules.

(And of course then you have the question of what a "competitive" list is, something few people will ever agree on.)