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champagne_socialist wrote:

A friendly game means that you keep it FAIR and keeping it fair means informing your opponent that you wish to try out a competitive build so that he can create an appropriate list.

And yet you continue to ignore your contribution to the game.

Do you agree or disagree that you should equally inform your opponent you intend to bring a sub par list incapable of dealing some fairly basic units?

Once more, if you expect your opponent to change their list, you have to be ready to compromise and build a better list too.

 Grey Templar wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
No but it means if you are spamming op units to let the other player know so they can make an appropriate list.

It means no such thing. All "friendly game" means is that we're going to play a game of 40k and there won't be any prize for the winner. It means absolutely nothing about the strength of our lists, so if you expect certain restrictions to be in place then you have the obligation to make those clear up front. It's entirely your fault if your opponent shows up with a list you don't like and you're "surprised" that they didn't read your mind and follow your arbitrary rules.

A friendly game means that you keep it FAIR and keeping it fair means informing your opponent that you wish to try out a competitive build so that he can create an appropriate list.

Thats an odd definition of "friendly". If I go play a pick-up game, thats friendly to me. Doesn't matter what our lists are.

It is not odd in the slightest, it is common sense. A friendly game means having a game for a bit of fun. How can you get the most fun out of 40k? that is by having a close game with 2 evenly matched sides and therefore if one player wants to bring a tournament style list he should inform the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

A friendly game means that you keep it FAIR and keeping it fair means informing your opponent that you wish to try out a competitive build so that he can create an appropriate list.

And yet you continue to ignore your contribution to the game.

Do you agree or disagree that you should equally inform your opponent you intend to bring a sub par list incapable of dealing some fairly basic units?

Once more, if you expect your opponent to change their list, you have to be ready to compromise and build a better list too.

You don't know my list so your post is irrelevant.

Then bring a better list.

Problem solved.

You have to make an effort too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

champagne_socialist wrote:


You don't know my list so your post is irrelevant.

First, post your list then.

Second, no, my post is not irrelevant. Read it again and answer my question.

champagne_socialist wrote:


You don't know my list so your post is irrelevant.

If you're as grumpy with your opponents, strikes me it was never a friendly game in the first place.

 Blacksails wrote:
Then bring a better list.

Problem solved.

You have to make an effort too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

champagne_socialist wrote:


You don't know my list so your post is irrelevant.

First, post your list then.

Second, no, my post is not irrelevant. Read it again and answer my question.

You keep going on about my list being weak even though you don't know my list and I said my opponent knew my list and designed a list to beat it....

And yes your post about me bringing a better list is irrelevant as you dont know my list

So are you going to post it or not?

You're not furthering the conversation.

Once again, read my post. The point and the question in it stand regardless of your list. If you are having difficulties understanding my posts, let me know and I'll clarify.

Here's the run down of my points:

1) Post your list so we can see how good or bad it is
2) If you expect your opponent to change their list to suit your needs, you need to compromise and change yours to suit theirs
3) Friendly is subjective, cheese is subjective

 Blacksails wrote:
So are you going to post it or not?

You're not furthering the conversation.

Once again, read my post. The point and the question in it stand regardless of your list. If you are having difficulties understanding my posts, let me know and I'll clarify.

Here's the run down of my points:

1) Post your list so we can see how good or bad it is
2) If you expect your opponent to change their list to suit your needs, you need to compromise and change yours to suit theirs
3) Friendly is subjective, cheese is subjective

My list is irrelevant to the question I asked which was should you expect your opponent to give you a polite warning if he is bringing a tournament styled list to a friendly non competition game...

Never said the opponent should change his army, just a bit of advance notice would be nice so I can create an approriate list. And yes that goes the other way as well if I was going to be running an army of servitors I would tell my opponent that i was bringing a weak list for a bit of a 'laugh' so that he could A) decide if he still wants to play and B) create an appropriate list so that the game we have is fun.

champagne_socialist wrote:


My list is irrelevant to the question I asked which was should you expect your opponent to give you a polite warning if he is bringing a tournament styled list to a friendly non competition game...

It is relevant, because from the knowledge we have, your opponent's list hardly sounds tournament style, which leads me to believe you brought a rather sub par list. Its relevant because had you brought a better list capable of dealing with two fairly common units you wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

Never said the opponent should change his army, just a bit of advance notice would be nice so I can create an approriate list. And yes that goes the other way as well if I was going to be running an army of servitors I would tell my opponent that i was bringing a weak list for a bit of a 'laugh' so that he could A) decide if he still wants to play and B) create an appropriate list so that the game we have is fun.

Notice is fine, and really you should be having a discussion anyways if you're so concerned about power levels. I'm glad you finally answered my question.

CS, you're going off the assumption that weak fluffly lists are the norm and that competitive is the different variable that should be the exception.
He might have been going off the notion that competitive builds are the norm and if you were bringing a less than competitive build you should have warned him.

Edit: And you never defined "Spam."

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
So are you going to post it or not?

You're not furthering the conversation.

Once again, read my post. The point and the question in it stand regardless of your list. If you are having difficulties understanding my posts, let me know and I'll clarify.

Here's the run down of my points:

1) Post your list so we can see how good or bad it is
2) If you expect your opponent to change their list to suit your needs, you need to compromise and change yours to suit theirs
3) Friendly is subjective, cheese is subjective

My list is irrelevant to the question I asked which was should you expect your opponent to give you a polite warning if he is bringing a tournament styled list to a friendly non competition game...

Never said the opponent should change his army, just a bit of advance notice would be nice so I can create an approriate list. And yes that goes the other way as well if I was going to be running an army of servitors I would tell my opponent that i was bringing a weak list for a bit of a 'laugh' so that he could A) decide if he still wants to play and B) create an appropriate list so that the game we have is fun.

You seem to be latching on to a few people's comments and missing the great number of people giving you constructive advice for avoiding this situation in future. The consensus, I believe, is as follows:

1. Three vendettas and a knight is not overpowered or tournament-style, so you and your opponent just have a different understanding of "cheese". This isn't a case of your opponent being TFG, it appears to be a simple miscommunication
2. Tailoring a list to beat your list from last week isn't really unsporting if it's not ridiculous, which is difficult to determine without knowing your list
3. In order to avoid this situation in future, agree with your opponent in advance not to bring superheavies or whatever it is you don't like about his list.

What is it you're after here? Are you looking for a way to avoid this in future, or do you just want a bunch of people to agree with you that the other guy was being a jerk? I ask because realistically I think you're only going to get one of those here, and you've already got it.

For the first few games, I would say bring fluffy lists that you think are fun to play.
If they consistently come with tournament lists designed to utterly destroy the opposition as though their lives are at stake, you are left with a decision.
1. discontinue playing this person.
The story ends there but opponents can sometimes be hard to find....
2. play the game their way and "fight fire with fire". This way, you might be able to show them what its like and force them to tone it down OR they will see it as a challenge (you wont have to worry about them "amping it up" if they are already set at full world tourney mode.
In the case of the former, you continue playing and keeping an eye out. In the case of the latter, you get the chance to keep your skills sharpened for the time you do go to a tourney.
3. Sit down and talk with your opponent and discuss your different goals and approaches to the game and hammer out a set of house rules on these topics that you can both agree to.

 Wulfmar wrote:
Yea it's true I might assume it's a game where you wouldn't bring powerful stuff and sure my friend might choose to bring some Stilton - but that's their choice and it just makes it clearer that they aren't as attune to what people think is relaxed or otherwise ...

Why would you assume that, rather than that it makes it clearer that you aren't 'attuned' to what people think is relaxed or otherwise?

 Wulfmar wrote:
You seem to be missing the point - I talk to my friends and we come up with what's acceptable together over time as we play with each other. You work out what someone likes to play by playing with them. Lists will change as people buy new models based on looks or stats.

And that's exactly the point... The OP is expecting his opponent to know that he considers certain unit overpowered and that this means they shouldn't be taken in 'friendly' games without that communication taking place.

He's making the same assumption that you did in your previous post: Namely - 'My opponent has a different opinion to mine as to what's acceptable in a 'friendly' game... and so his opinion is wrong.'


When in reality, neither of you is 'wrong'... you just have different opinions of what is acceptable, and didn't take the time before the game to communicate and establish that fact and decide on a happy middle ground.


You can't just assume, without any communication, that your opponent is going to be expecting the same thing from the game as you are.

 MWHistorian wrote:
CS, you're going off the assumption that weak fluffly lists are the norm and that competitive is the different variable that should be the exception.
He might have been going off the notion that competitive builds are the norm and if you were bringing a less than competitive build you should have warned him.

Exactly. OP, you have no right to assume that lists of the same power level as yours are the default, and anyone who wants to deviate from that default needs to give advance warning. If you care so much about matching power level then you have the obligation to negotiate it.

You know I usually go with a mix of cheeses and some crackers, but what I think really works best for friendly games is maybe like a cheese and meat tray their inexpensive their not generally to messy and it avoids getting cracker crumbs on the table.

I appreciate it took you a long time to write that Insaniak, but you've assumed my posts were to the OP and didn't read the thread. Those were comments directed elsewhere at a different poster.

Additionally frustrating is that you also said I'm making assumptions about the game because I'm not communicating, much like the poster I had originally written that for. Please read carefully what I posted as you will see clearly I am saying that I speak to the other player- you even quoted me on it.

People are getting to trigger happy at snapping at others on this thread.

 Wulfmar wrote:
I appreciate it took you a long time to write that Insaniak, but you've assumed my posts were to the OP and didn't read the thread. Those were comments directed elsewhere at a different poster.

Yes, I know. I read the thread.

I didn't assume your posts were to the OP. That would have made them largely nonsensical.

Additionally frustrating is that you also said I'm making assumptions about the game because I'm not communicating, much like the poster I had originally written that for. Please read carefully what I posted as you will see clearly I am saying that I speak to the other player- you even quoted me on it..

Indeed I did. The part about not communicating was directed more at the OP. The 'assumption' that I attributed to you was that the other guy is in the wrong because he doesn't have the same approach to the game as you do... because that's exactly what you said.

I think it is the norm to bring a balanced list to a friendly game and the abnorm to bring a super tourny styled op spam list or the abnorm to bring a super weak useless list and therefore if the opponent plans on bringing the abnorm he should inform the other player.

You state many times that my opponent might not know what is op and what is useless but if you play 40k you know what units are powerful and op.

champagne_socialist wrote:
I think it is the norm to bring a balanced list to a friendly game and the abnorm to bring a super tourny styled op spam list or the abnorm to bring a super weak useless list and therefore if the opponent plans on bringing the abnorm he should inform the other player.

That's a norm that only exists in your own mind. It is not a universal truth that you can expect everyone else to follow.

champagne_socialist wrote:
I think it is the norm to bring a balanced list to a friendly game and the abnorm to bring a super tourny styled op spam list or the abnorm to bring a super weak useless list and therefore if the opponent plans on bringing the abnorm he should inform the other player.

Then it would be a good idea for you to commicate this belief to prospective opponents.

If you don't, then you can't expect that they will believe in the same 'norm' that you do.

You state many times that my opponent might not know what is op and what is useless but if you play 40k you know what units are powerful and op.

If that were true, we wouldn't have so many threads from people asking if this unit or that unit is any good.

But. whether or not something is or isn't overpowered is only half of the issue. The other half is whether or not a unit being overpowered means you should check with your opponent before using it. You think it does... but regardless of how many times you may insist it's 'the norm', this simply isn't a universally-held belief.

You want your opponent to know what sort of game you want to play without you having to communicate with them. And that's simply not going to happen.

This game is expensive, why should I put money and time into something that doesnt give me the best chance of winning

When I challenge someone to a game, all I expect to see is a coherent force. Your opponent brought an army with a single Faction, which is totally legal in the rules, is not particularly powerful in-game, and can be justified fluff-wise as a scalpel; a single high-power tool going out to fulfil a specific objective, which suddenly came across a foe it hadn't anticipated so radio'd for support. Naturally, the aircraft were the only things that could respond and mobilize to help with the threat in a reasonable timescale.

Did you consider playing to the opponent's weaknesses? A single scoring model is barely a threat in most missions. Tie it up with a blob and you're laughing.

In fairness, there are some Unbound lists that I would object to facing without warning; if someone brought two Flyrants, two Riptides and filled out with level 3 Heralds of Tzeentch at 1000, I would feel a bit peeved. I'd give it a go, though, I'd play to their weaknesses, and after the game I would discuss my expectations with the other player.

If, on the other hand, I brought a reasonable army, powerful but justifiably so (say a Daemon list with a Lord of Change, two Heralds of Tzeentch, two Horror squads and a Flesh Hound unit for early pressure) and my opponent brought a weak list with no way to deal with basic threats in the modern game such as a flying Psychic support unit, followed by him bitching about me behind my back for not playing to his apparent assumption that we wouldn't take anything that an average Tactical Squad isn't equipped to deal with... I'd also be peeved.

You're only presenting one side of the story. Why do you think we want you to post your list? For me, at least, it's a simple matter of finding out if your assumptions were reasonable. You also can't reasonably refuse to post your list, get annoyed at us for making false deductions abut it based on what you have said, and then expect us to take your corner.

This entire discussion is about communication, and your attitude in this thread demonstrates that you're as much to blame for a lack of clarity as yur opponent. This whole thing could have been avoided if you'd said "I prefer to play battleforged, and just to let you know I'll be bringing a comparatively soft list" - at that point, your opponent knows your assumptions (roughly) and that bringing something that's Unbound and tightly-focused is not what you're looking for. At that point, you have the right to be annoyed.

I'm nearly certain the OP is trolling, but I want to add my thoughts on this as a new player.

I only have 1000 points of space wolves and I've played 10 games. Before I play someone I let them know that I'm still learning the game and they usually bring stuff that isn't too tough. However, last week I played against tau and before the game the guy asked if he could bring a riptide, I said sure and we started the game. It was completely one-sided, I got wiped hard. But I still had fun and I learned from some mistakes I made and where my list needs improvement. I'm hoping to play against that same list soon and trying new tactics.

The point is if it's within the rules and there are no agreed restrictions before the game then there is nothing wrong with it. I read all the time on here about "cheese" and "friendly" games but really all I get when I hear that is you didn't bring a strong army.

champagne_socialist wrote:
I think it is the norm to bring a balanced list to a friendly game and the abnorm to bring a super tourny styled op spam list or the abnorm to bring a super weak useless list and therefore if the opponent plans on bringing the abnorm he should inform the other player.

You state many times that my opponent might not know what is op and what is useless but if you play 40k you know what units are powerful and op.

1. You and your opponent did not come to an agreement on the type of game you wanted to play. Friendly or competitive
2. Throwing around labels like "Super Tourny" and "Super Weak" is useless. The list you described your opponent of taking is laughable in any competitive tournament.
3. Discuss the type of game you want before hand. If you and your opponent can't agree, then put on your big boy pants, shake his hand, and play someone else.