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recently played a game where my opponent brought quite a tough army. We agreed on 1500 points and so I made a fun list thinking it was a friendly game as we never said we were bringing cheese.



What do you guys think, should I expect my opponent to give me a warning that he is bringing a stong list so I can make a strong list as well or should I just accpt that opponents will turn up to friendly games without giving warning?

Which Flyers?

The first question would be: Did he realise he was building a 'strong' list, or was he just using models that he liked?

And the second question would be: If he did purposely build a 'strong' list, was he purposely trying for an unfairly strong list...?


He doesn't necessarily feel that his 3 flyers and stompa are 'cheese, just because you do.

 insaniak wrote:
The first question would be: Did he realise he was building a 'strong' list, or was he just using models that he liked?

And the second question would be: If he did purposely build a 'strong' list, was he purposely trying for an unfairly strong list...?


He doesn't necessarily feel that his 3 flyers and stompa are 'cheese, just because you do.

Well he said that he brought the list because he wanted to try the models but then later in the evening I heard him saying to another player that he brought the list because he saw me play the week before and saw what i brang and wanted to bring a list that would beat me eg tailoring his army to beat me.

But forget that he was building a list to win against my army, should any player when playing in a friendly game bring 3 flyers and a super heavy without first giving a polite notice to his oponent that hes bringing a tough list eg 3 flyers

champagne_socialist wrote:
recently played a game where my opponent brought quite a tough army. We agreed on 1500 points and so I made a fun list thinking it was a friendly game as we never said we were bringing cheese. So I turn up to the game and he shows me his army list and he has 3 flyers and an Imperial Knight.

Would you turn up to a friendly game with 3 flyers and a knight without telling your opponent that you were gonna bring flyers or super heavies? I could understand turning iup with 1 flyer or just 1 knight and not saying anything but 3 flyers and a knight in the same army list.

What do you guys think, should I expect my opponent to give me a warning that he is bringing a stong list so I can make a strong list as well or should I just accpt that opponents will turn up to friendly games without giving warning?

1. Be clear about what game you want beforehand and see if compatible.
2. Tell your friend that you think he is being cheesy
3. Dont play if you dont want to

 Eldarain wrote:
Which Flyers?

think they were vendettas, they had 3 twin linked lascannons each


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rippy wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
recently played a game where my opponent brought quite a tough army. We agreed on 1500 points and so I made a fun list thinking it was a friendly game as we never said we were bringing cheese. So I turn up to the game and he shows me his army list and he has 3 flyers and an Imperial Knight.

Would you turn up to a friendly game with 3 flyers and a knight without telling your opponent that you were gonna bring flyers or super heavies? I could understand turning iup with 1 flyer or just 1 knight and not saying anything but 3 flyers and a knight in the same army list.

What do you guys think, should I expect my opponent to give me a warning that he is bringing a stong list so I can make a strong list as well or should I just accpt that opponents will turn up to friendly games without giving warning?

1. Be clear about what game you want beforehand and see if compatible.
2. Tell your friend that you think he is being cheesy
3. Dont play if you dont want to

i did make a point to tell him his list was cheesy and he should have said before tht he was spamming flyers and bringing a lord of war lol.

champagne_socialist wrote:
But forget that he was building a list to win against my army, should any player when playing in a friendly game bring 3 flyers and a super heavy without first giving a polite notice to his oponent that hes bringing a tough list eg 3 flyers

In the current game?

Sure, why not?


That's just the nature of the current edition of 40K.

 insaniak wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
But forget that he was building a list to win against my army, should any player when playing in a friendly game bring 3 flyers and a super heavy without first giving a polite notice to his oponent that hes bringing a tough list eg 3 flyers

In the current game?

Sure, why not?


That's just the nature of the current edition of 40K.

fair enough, i was under he impression in friendly games you would tell your oponent to bring a strong list if youre bringing a strong list to make the game fair because a few reasons, firstly its not fun on the oponent if he is tabled in turn 2 because he brought a fluffy fun list to a friendly game and you brought a super cheesy list and secondoly i cant imagine it is much fun for you if you have a super strong list and youre up against a much weaker list that can't do anything to you.

Fun and fluffy are not useful descriptors for a list.

Fun and fluffy are so incredibly broad and subjective it may as well desscribe every list.

Remember that in all of this its a two way street. If you expect your opponent to tone down their list, be prepared to meet them half way by toning up yours.

champagne_socialist wrote:
firstly its not fun on the oponent if he is tabled in turn 2 because he brought a fluffy fun list to a friendly game and you brought a super cheesy list

So why is your choice to bring a less-effective list your opponent's fault?

and secondoly i cant imagine it is much fun for you if you have a super strong list and youre up against a much weaker list that can't do anything to you.

Probably not. Unless, of course, you enjoy tabling people in turn 2.


But ultimately, your opponent is only responsible for his own list. What you choose to put on the table is up to you.

In my local meta three flyers and a SH is a meh list. Though we do have the house rule to bring alternative points for any Superheavy.

 insaniak wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
firstly its not fun on the oponent if he is tabled in turn 2 because he brought a fluffy fun list to a friendly game and you brought a super cheesy list

So why is your choice to bring a less-effective list your opponent's fault?

and secondoly i cant imagine it is much fun for you if you have a super strong list and youre up against a much weaker list that can't do anything to you.

Probably not. Unless, of course, you enjoy tabling people in turn 2.


But ultimately, your opponent is only responsible for his own list. What you choose to put on the table is up to you.

No one is saying dont bring 3 flyers and a super heavy I am saying should he have said 'hey I am going to be bringing quite a strog list so you might want to do the same'.

If you agreed to play a friendly game and you turned up and your opponent brought an unbound list of just riptides without telling you he was bringing a strong list how would you react?

As I said earlier, two way street.

Can't expect your opponent to bend to your will without adapting a little yourself.

 Blacksails wrote:
As I said earlier, two way street.

Can't expect your opponent to bend to your will without adapting a little yourself.

you don't know my list, a fun and fluffy list just means a list designed for a friendly game eg no spamming of OP units.

As I also said earlier, fun and fluffy are useless adjectives to describe a list.

I'm sure your opponent think their list is equally fun and fluffy.

Well... I would say your observation is a bit dualistic in nature...

On one hand, I completely understand how that looks. After all, this is sort of meant to be an infantry game, so, anything way way outside of that paradigm, probably is best to notify the person to whom you are playing - prior to making lists. I imagine hearing that your opponent was just tailor making a list to beat you was indeed a bit frustrating; it shows you what to expect from that player in the future. With these kinds of players, its probably best to just look at him like that brother that wants to up-one because its.... just the brotherly thing to do - to up-one

On the other hand, and this really kind of goes against the legalistic propensity I believe we are all engrained with, walking in with little to no expectations on how the lists should look like, will probably make for a more enjoyable game.

This doesn't mean you cannot chide at him humorously for obviously bringing the perfect counter vs your army - as long as you get him to laugh too

When it comes to Superheavies, everybody should ideally be a consenting adult. When organising a game, tell the opponent that you're planning on bringing one, so he can plan ahead or scream out a safeword and find someone less sick and twisted to play with.

I don't use Superheavies, but like to know if an opponent wants to use one so I can make a game that won't be over by turn 2. My SM list that I'm building for friendlies will not stand up to a Knight or Baneblade, but I can give them a decent fight with my Chaos list. That way we'll both have an enjoyable match, unless he's only there to stomp puppies. That said, I normally organise my games a week in advance- it'd be harder to sort out on a pick-up basis.

7th can be wildly unbalanced, and the only way to make a sensible "friendly" game is to work out some limitations beforehand. That is the nature of the plasticrack beast at the moment.

champagne_socialist wrote:
If you agreed to play a friendly game and you turned up and your opponent brought an unbound list of just riptides without telling you he was bringing a strong list how would you react?

Unless we had specifically agreed to not play Unbound, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Again, it's the nature of the current game.

If I found that I didn't enjoy the game, I just wouldn't repeat the experience.


What it boils down to is: If you and your opponent don't agree to set boundaries on the sorts of lists you bring, then any list is fair game.

champagne_socialist wrote:
you don't know my list, a fun and fluffy list just means a list designed for a friendly game eg no spamming of OP units.

A unit being overpowered doesn't automatically mean that including it isn't 'fluffy'...

 insaniak wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
If you agreed to play a friendly game and you turned up and your opponent brought an unbound list of just riptides without telling you he was bringing a strong list how would you react?

Unless we had specifically agreed to not play Unbound, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Again, it's the nature of the current game.

If I found that I didn't enjoy the game, I just wouldn't repeat the experience.


What it boils down to is: If you and your opponent don't agree to set boundaries on the sorts of lists you bring, then any list is fair game.

champagne_socialist wrote:
you don't know my list, a fun and fluffy list just means a list designed for a friendly game eg no spamming of OP units.

A unit being overpowered doesn't automatically mean that including it isn't 'fluffy'...

Well we obviously have very different interpretations of how games should be organised and played. If you think turning up to a game with a list as op and spamming as much op as possible to try and get a turn 1/2 table is fine then I'm glad you are not in my gaming circle .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zed wrote:
When it comes to Superheavies, everybody should ideally be a consenting adult. When organising a game, tell the opponent that you're planning on bringing one, so he can plan ahead or scream out a safeword and find someone less sick and twisted to play with.

I don't use Superheavies, but like to know if an opponent wants to use one so I can make a game that won't be over by turn 2. My SM list that I'm building for friendlies will not stand up to a Knight or Baneblade, but I can give them a decent fight with my Chaos list. That way we'll both have an enjoyable match, unless he's only there to stomp puppies. That said, I normally organise my games a week in advance- it'd be harder to sort out on a pick-up basis.

7th can be wildly unbalanced, and the only way to make a sensible "friendly" game is to work out some limitations beforehand. That is the nature of the plasticrack beast at the moment.

Echoes my thoughts exactly. 40k is all about having fun and there is no fun in turning up to a game and finding out that your opponent has a super strong army where he has spammed op units or bought super heavies or spammed flyers and your army has nothing that can deal with it and the entire game (2 turns) is spent removing your models.

I do enjoy playing against tough armies but its nice to know in advance so I can prepare an army that will give someone a good game and hopefully make the night more fun for the both of us.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Zed wrote:
When it comes to Superheavies, everybody should ideally be a consenting adult. When organising a game, tell the opponent that you're planning on bringing one, so he can plan ahead or scream out a safeword and find someone less sick and twisted to play with.

I don't use Superheavies, but like to know if an opponent wants to use one so I can make a game that won't be over by turn 2. My SM list that I'm building for friendlies will not stand up to a Knight or Baneblade, but I can give them a decent fight with my Chaos list. That way we'll both have an enjoyable match, unless he's only there to stomp puppies. That said, I normally organise my games a week in advance- it'd be harder to sort out on a pick-up basis.

7th can be wildly unbalanced, and the only way to make a sensible "friendly" game is to work out some limitations beforehand. That is the nature of the plasticrack beast at the moment.

Echoes my thoughts exactly. 40k is all about having fun and there is no fun in turning up to a game and finding out that your opponent has a super strong army where he has spammed op units or bought super heavies or spammed flyers and your army has nothing that can deal with it and the entire game (2 turns) is spent removing your models.

I do enjoy playing against tough armies but its nice to know in advance so I can prepare an army that will give someone a good game and hopefully make the night more fun for the both of us.

Great, however reading through the rest of the thread (and what insaniak said) it doesn't look like you discussed between you what models you could bring, how many detachments, superheavies, etc- in which case the Knight, 3 flyer bloke has done nothing wrong in bringing what he did. Which is his point- in 7th, you have to talk about these things.

For example, you could tell me we're playing 1750. I can bring some Crimson Fists (fluffy as hell, but not stunningly powerful and I'm new to the army), or Slaaneshi Chaos (also fluffy as hell, but a borderline-terrifying blend of strong units synergising well that I have right where I want it). Unless you tell me you're bringing something sub-optimal, I might default to Slaaneshis and annihilate your army.

The fault goes both ways- neither of you started the conversation.

"cheese" is subjective.

I was recently participating in an escalation league.
First was a 200pt kill team, to which I brought a dark angel's tac squad with PG and PC. A bit TAC, nothing too bad. (you should have seen some of the other lists)
Next came 750pt, I brought more tacs, a lvl 2 libby, a razor back and a dakka pred. Once again, just for fun.
In the third week, after seeing people "cheese" their armies (barely winning my first games, only because I got lucky with opponents), I brought a chaplain on a bike with mace of redemption, and a 5 man ravening command squad with apothecary.
This list was more competitive, but with the base of what I had before, nothing "over the top".

That is not how my opponent saw it, nor the others watching out game. He brought a grav cent star, and still cried cheese the whole game, even more so once I killed them. I won, and had to constantly listen to how "dark angels are op!"

I didn't even know DA could even be op, and I saw nothing wrong with my list. But the other guys weren't just ing and being jerks. They just genuinely believed I had brought cheese.

What you see as cheese, someone else might see as fun or fluffy, and vice versa.

I think your opponent should specify if he's going to bring 3 Flyers and/or a SH. It's not something I would expect to show up in a normal game. I'd be up for playing against that list, but I'd want some notice ahead of time.

champagne_socialist wrote:
If you think turning up to a game with a list as op and spamming as much op as possible to try and get a turn 1/2 table is fine then I'm glad you are not in my gaming circle .

There's a difference between thinking it's acceptable and doing it myself.


My own lists are generally built around the models that I want to use. I'll sometimes put some effort into making sure the list is going to be effective on the table, but for the most part I just want an army that I'm going to enjoy playing with.

But I accept that others don't necessarily approach list building with the same attitude as I do, and so as long as their list is legal (and again, assuming we haven't set any sort of limits beforehand) then I don't feel I have any legitimate reason to complain about what they bring.


If there are specific things that you don't want to face, just discuss that with your opponent when you're setting up the game. And then everyone is on the same page when you're actually standing at the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think your opponent should specify if he's going to bring 3 Flyers and/or a SH. It's not something I would expect to show up in a normal game..

Then you probably need to have another read of the rules for building an army list, to be honest.


It's not a list that you should have been expecting in 5th edition. In 7th, there is absolutely no reason to not expect an opponent to bring whatever they want, unless you agree to limitations beforehand... because the book makes it abundantly clear that this is the way they designed this edition, and what they expect players to do.

Cheese is in the eye of the beholder.

If you don't discuss beforehand what you consider an acceptable list to be playing with, then can you really blame someone for bringing what the rules allow them to? This guy could be on a different forum somewhere else saying "I had a terrible game the other day, I showed up for a fun friendly match and my opponent ran an army of entirely grots! I stomped all over him, it was terrible"

'Fun', 'Fluffy' and 'Friendly' are pretty useless descriptions for what kind of game you want to play. Tau Battlesuit-only is fluffy. 5 Flyrants is fun. Having a tough well-fought match is friendly.

If you want to show up with a particular list that you consider sub-optimal and have a close-fought game, you need to tell your opponent 'I'm going to play with an arm tied behind my back, but I'd still like to have a fair fight, so can you tie yours as well?'. (And you're still going to run in to disagreements when he shows up with a (comparatively easy) Tau gunline instead of Farsight Tau riptide spam.)

Yeah, cheese and fun are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Like my buddies and I have a weekly game night where we've agreed to bring the cheesiest unbound Apoc stuff. So we'll get like 5 Knights, 18 Riptides, 200 Necron warriors, Tau Tigersharks, 3 C'Tans, Harridan + Hierophant, etc.

We still have fun though.

 insaniak wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think your opponent should specify if he's going to bring 3 Flyers and/or a SH. It's not something I would expect to show up in a normal game..

Then you probably need to have another read of the rules for building an army list, to be honest.


It's not a list that you should have been expecting in 5th edition. In 7th, there is absolutely no reason to not expect an opponent to bring whatever they want, unless you agree to limitations beforehand... because the book makes it abundantly clear that this is the way they designed this edition, and what they expect players to do.

I'm sorry. What? I have read the rulebook, cover to cover, and never seen something along the lines of "surprise your opponent with whatever the feth you want". Rather, most of it is about Forging the Narrative and having a fun and friendly game.

Don't get me wrong, in a tournament or serious game, he's allowed to do whatever he wants. Hell, even a random PUG, this would semi-fly with me. But if I had a friend who intentionally brought this gak against me, with no warning, I'd be rather cheesed off. If I'm going to be running Flying Circus or all Daemon Summoning, I'd give my opponent fair warning, same as if I was bringing 3 Knights or a Lord of Skulls.

champagne_socialist wrote:
recently played a game where my opponent brought quite a tough army. We agreed on 1500 points and so I made a fun list thinking it was a friendly game as we never said we were bringing cheese. So I turn up to the game and he shows me his army list and he has 3 flyers and an Imperial Knight.

Would you turn up to a friendly game with 3 flyers and a knight without telling your opponent that you were gonna bring flyers or super heavies? I could understand turning iup with 1 flyer or just 1 knight and not saying anything but 3 flyers and a knight in the same army list.

What do you guys think, should I expect my opponent to give me a warning that he is bringing a stong list so I can make a strong list as well or should I just accpt that opponents will turn up to friendly games without giving warning?

I had a friend that played Tyranids and knew I didn't like dealing with rush/horde armys, so he tailored his army to rush/horde (Thats not totally unique for a Tyranid army though, is it?), so I tailored my army to deal with that (adding Ogryns, deepstrike Kasrkin to take out hivemind etc.) and he adapted and so on, back and forth.

Some people might want to make an army to ruin your day to help you adapt and grow as a player, maybe thats it?

Although bringing a Lord of War is properly brie. A bit emmental.

Whats the word?

Right, cheesey.

To be honest, flyers are pretty meh in maelstorm.

CalSt23 wrote:
Although bringing a Lord of War is properly brie. A bit emmental.

Whats the word?

Right, cheesey.

Yeah, I can't imagine playing against the kind of TFG who would bring a Malcador without asking their opponent for permission. Nobody is going to enjoy tabling that poor guy because he brought a tank that's worse than its points in LRBTs, so they should have the decency to inform their opponent in advance and allow that opponent to bring a weaker list that will make it a fair game instead of a massacre.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I'm sorry. What? I have read the rulebook, cover to cover, and never seen something along the lines of "surprise your opponent with whatever the feth you want".

The point is that flyers and superheavies shouldn't be a surprise, just like you shouldn't think "WTF I can't believe you surprised me with a tactical squad". They're part of the standard game in 7th edition, despite the stubborn efforts of certain players to pretend that the 5th edition army construction rules are still in effect.

 Peregrine wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I'm sorry. What? I have read the rulebook, cover to cover, and never seen something along the lines of "surprise your opponent with whatever the feth you want".

The point is that flyers and superheavies shouldn't be a surprise, just like you shouldn't think "WTF I can't believe you surprised me with a tactical squad". They're part of the standard game in 7th edition, despite the stubborn efforts of certain players to pretend that the 5th edition army construction rules are still in effect.

According to who? GW has made it pretty clear that their "rules" are often a lot more like guidelines, what with Forging the Narrative. There is nothing in the rulebook requiring I play a game with SH or Flyers (although Flyers ahead of time is fine).

Besides, what makes part of the standard game? Few players at my LGS own a SH and I've rarely run in to more than two Flyers at a time, so I don't know where you're getting this information.