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Martel732 wrote:
So it seems like most people don't like giving bolters shred, myself included. I feel like we're stuck in a kind of limbo with no way to make S4 shooting with no special rules mean much anymore. Maybe for heavy bolters, though.

Well, imagine you're fighting a Scout Spam list...

S3 (15x RF Lasguns) - 30x(1/2)(1/3)(1/2) = 30/12 = 2.5
S4 (10x RF Bolters) - 20x(1/2)(1/2)(1/2) = 20/8 = 2.5
S5 (2x Heavy Bolter) - 6x(1/2)(2/3)(1) = 12/6 = 2
S7 (2x AC) - 4x(1/2)(5/6)(1) = 20/12 = ~2
S8 (2x Krak ML) - 2x(1/2)(5/6)(1) = 10/12 = ~1

Against T4 4+, the weaker weapons can get the job done. Against S3 or 5+, it's going to be even better.

Bharring - it would seem as though we actually agree then. We agree that shred is not what's needed.
I also agree that Tacs shouldn't be buffed (although I think they need buffing for all things to be equal but those are 2 seperate things), as all codexes have units in troops which are not optimal, that is just the way of the game that I accepted a long time ago.
As Martel stated a few posts ago - tacs need an entire rework for them to be considered a 'competitive' choice. It's just the way the meta is at the moment. That being said - so do many other troops, this is not unique to tacs.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Bahrring - it would seem as though we actually agree then. We agree that shred is not what's needed.
I also agree that Tacs shouldn't be buffed (although I think they need buffing for all things to be equal but those are 2 seperate things), as all codexes have units in troops which are not optimal, that is just the way of the game that I accepted a long time ago.
As Martel stated a few posts ago - tacs need an entire rework for them to be considered a 'competitive' choice. It's just the way the meta is at the moment. That being said - so do many other troops, this is not unique to tacs.

It's just that tacs end up "flushing" more points than xeno troops. Being marginally better for more points really isn't better in the over all meta.

Wouldn't the game be better if we, instead, just made toe stuff troops didn't have a chance against more rare/more costly? Chasing power creep seems like a bad idea to me.

(I think we mostly agree, Poly. I think my opinion of Tacs is a little higher than yours, but same general place)

(That said, it is really hard for me not to go after other posts here that seem logically deficient)

True - tacs indefinitely pay for things which do not come up in the majority of games. The curse of the 'all rounder', who's not really an all rounder at anything. I'm just not a fan of them and never will be if they stay remotely the same.

GW is doing the exact opposite They are ballooning the units that troops have zero chance against. TWC, anyone?

But I am, Poly. I like having to make the most of their abilities, when I field them. Its what I love about Tacs.

Yeh power creep ruined 6th.

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't the game be better if we, instead, just made toe stuff troops didn't have a chance against more rare/more costly? Chasing power creep seems like a bad idea to me.
(I think we mostly agree, Poly. I think my opinion of Tacs is a little higher than yours, but same general place)
(That said, it is really hard for me not to go after other posts here that seem logically deficient)

"Dear Games Workshop: Please nerf Paper. Scissors are fine. Signed, Rock."

And yes, Martel. They are doin lg power creep. They did reign it in a bit after the SM codex, though.

I think I keep being a few posts behind lol. Anyhows I'm up at silly o'clock here with work tomorrow so I'll leave you lot to it.

MagicJuggler - I think that is much of what this three is about. Paper is on top, so Rock wants GW to nerf it. But those xeno scissors scum are OP already.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
"Dear Games Workshop: Please nerf Paper. Scissors are fine. Signed, Rock."

No need. Just do a "fan balance patch" about once a month, to fix about 3 issues in every army, and the most glaring imbalances in the game.

We are already doing most of the work by discussion here.

So, this might get kind of long, but bear with me.

First off, Bolters- aside from perhaps the Heavy Bolter- don't really need Shred. A lot of the problem with Bolters is that they're the signature weapon of a Troops choice that's not particularly cost-effective in offensive output. That second bit is a big deal, and we'll see why in a minute.

First, let's examine some other basic infantry weapons and the other weapon options of squads that can field said weapons:

Lasguns

IG Infantry squads get Lasguns, which are 24" Rapid Fire S3/AP-. In comparison, the Bolter looks pretty boss, with S4 and AP5. Lasguns do, however, get Orders to buff their output to a "Rapid Fire 3/2", if you will. In terms of support, you get a variety of special weapons; consisting of:

Flamers, Grenade Launchers, Sniper Rifles, Meltaguns, and Plasma Guns

As well as heavy weapons including:

Mortars, HBs, Autocannons, MLs, ML+Flakk, and Lascannons

Hmm... we can't tell (yet) but it seems as if "mediocre basic gun=good specials" might be a thing. Let's move on.

Hotshot Lasguns

It loses 6" of range in exchange for gaining AP3- not necessarily a bad trade, but it can be quite hairy for a T3/4+ dude to have to get that close to power armored dudes who are usually T4, and probably more interested in charging in than standing around to be (slowly) shot to death. In any case, the two units with the HS Lasgun get no heavy weapons, but have access to most of the specials:

Flamers, Grenade Launchers, Meltaguns, Plasma Guns; no Sniper Rifles, but instead they get Hotshot Volley Guns, basically a sort of LMG/GPMG hybrid variant of the HS Lasgun

HS Lasguns have their pros and cons to the traditional Lasgun, but I'd say they're overall slightly better given the other options and equipment of the units with HS Lasguns- said units are all equipped with 4+ armor, making them a bit more durable, are BS4 and swap special/heavy options in favor of double specials, and additionally trading the Sniper Rifle for the HSVG, the latter of which is more suited to the types of things the rebranded Stormtroopers want to shoot at.

Bolters

We know it, we used to love it, now we just put up with it. Marines and Sisters are the iconic bolter-toting units- so much so for the latter that they even have an epithet associated with their army. We'll look specifically at Marine Tactical Squads, Chaos Marine Squads, and Battle Sister Squads.

Tactical Squads

Special Weapons include: Flamers, Meltaguns, Plasma Guns, Grav Guns
Heavy Weapons include: HBs, MLs, ML+Flakk, Lascannons, Plasma Cannons, MMs, Heavy Flamers (BA Only)

Melta and Plasma seem to be standard fare, as do Flamers. No Grenade Launchers or Sniper Rifles, and the Stormie-specific HSVG is naturally missing. Instead they do get Grav Guns, which are pretty good at killing 2+ anything, but especially anything that's T5+ and has a 3+ or 2+ armor save. Heavies are a bit all over the place- no Mortars or ACs, but they do get Plasma Cannons, which are pretty chill. Most of the time, alas, you're not likely to get more than one hit from a small blast, but hey, giant plasma blasts of doom are "cool" at least. They do get the useful Multi-Melta, and Blood Angels get the quite handy Heavy Flamer... though I feel as if HFs are only a good "heavy" on account of being able to fire on the move with no loss of effect.

Battle Sister Squads

Special Weapons include: Flamers, Meltaguns, Stormbolters
Heavy Weapons include: HBs, HFs, MMs

Very limited options here. Given that these are actually the only weapon options Sisters get period, I'm willing to chalk that up to "army flavor". Still, be kind of nice if GeeDubs had given them a little more variety that still stayed in the purview of "bolter/flamer/melta" weapons, considering the background. In any case, they do get MMs (which are nice) and HFs (which are very nice), but bizarrely get Stormbolters. Hmm.. maybe Bolters are actually good, it's just everybody has the S6/7 Spam disease?

It is worth noting that Battle Sisters can go double special if they forgo a heavy weapon- this isn't a bad idea either, though it may not be ideal for some weapon combinations or squad roles (IE, backfield objective holders).

Chaos Marine Squads

Special Weapons include: Flamers, Meltaguns, Plasma Guns
Heavy Weapons include: HBs, Autocannons, MLs, Lascannons

Chaos Marines are similar to Sisters in that they can go double special, or special+heavy. They trade out Flakk missiles, MMs, and Plasma Cannons for access to Autocannons as well as the ability to take double special instead of special+heavy, as mentioned. They also lack grav... but again, can take double special, and thus get two plasma guns into the squad if such is desired.

Confusing, confusing at this point.

Pulse Rifles

Our first detour into "Xeno" army territory is the Pulse Rifle. Compared to the Bolter, it gains +6" and +1S. The weapon options are, however, very slim: you can swap the Pulse Rifle for the Carbine variant, changing type from Rapid Fire to Assault 2, losing 12" of range, and gaining Pinning. You can also take EMP Grenades... which is amusing considering FWs and Tau models in general are so bad in combat.

But they get no special weapon options. Of note, however, is that the admittedly-FA slotted Pathfinders, which carry Pulse Carbines, can get access to two special weapons choices: The Rail Rifle and the Ion Rifle. The plot thickens yet more...

Splinter Rifles

Splinter weapons are 4+ poison, with no Strength value. While this makes them incredibly potent against high-Toughness enemies, it also makes them passable against T3/T4, and useless against anything with an Armor Value. Kabalite Warriors get a nice arrangement of special/heavy weapons- there's not very many different options for these guys, but they do get some stellar pieces:

Specials: Blaster, Shredder
Heavies: Splinter Cannon, Dark Lance

Both the Blaster and Dark Lance are S8/AP2 Lance weapons, making them very deadly against targets that are AV10/11 or AV13+, and rather mediocre against AV12 where S8 is middling and Lance isn't kicking in yet. Still, they are AP2, and Blasters get the added perk in that they have an 18" range instead of the usual 12" that most S8 anti-vehicle infantry special weapons are (IE, melta). Splinter Cannons are basically the epitome of a Salvo weapon done right, and Shredders... well Shredders are what they are.

Shuriken Catapults, Avenger Shuricats

I've lumped these two together, as they're remarkably similar in implementation. Shuriken weapons get Bladestorm, which is basically pseudo-Rending against Toughness-value targets. Shuricats are used by Guardians, who can take heavy weapons, but this rather hampers the use of the Shuricats that they carry as standard due to the Shuricat being 12" range. Avenger Shuricats are 18" range, but are also in a squad that has no special/heavy weapon options- literally the only way to juggle armament is to play around with Exarch kit.

It seems that we might have something with this. But there's not enough evidence... yet.

Gauss Weapons

Gauss weapons of all stripes have the Gauss rule, which confers an auto-wound or auto-glance on a To-Wound/armor pen roll of "6", no matter what the Toughness or AV of the target is. Which is incredibly powerful. Gauss Flayers and Gauss Blasters, which are deployed by Necron troop choices, are generally somewhat limited in range (24" for both, IIRC), and are Rapid Fire. Flayers are S4/AP5 while Blasters get HB-grade S5/AP4. Mostly what makes them good, however, is that Gauss rule- it actually means that a blob of Necron Warriors can glance literally any vehicle to death. Yes, even that notorious Wave Serpent.

In exchange, Warriors can only be equipped with Flayers (like they'd want anything else), while Immortals can optionally swap from all-Gauss to all-Tesla, which brings us to:

Tesla Weapons

Tesla Weapons have deceptively low rates of fire, on account of the Tesla rule; more-or-less, triple-hit if you get a To-Hit of "6". And at S7 this is really boss. It is only AP-... but when you can dump that many S7 hits onto something, it doesn't much matter anymore what the AP value is. It is, however, important to note that Tesla is almost universally Assault 1- more relevantly, Necron Immortals can only be armed with Tesla weapons that have Assault 1, so there is a bit of a hard cap on the potential hitrate.

Other Outliers

Ork Shootas and Tyranid guns tend to be outliers- in both instances the units are very assault centric, and and tend to have few or no special/heavy weapon options. Most of the time, these weapons seem to be designed to be used in such numbers that the actually quality of a shot isn't particularly important- only the quantity. This said, Ork shootas aren't too shabby, at 18" Assault 2 S4/AP6, with options for a Big Shoota (36" Assault 3 S5/AP5) or Rokkit Launcha (24" Assault 1 S8/AP3). It's just kind of hard to typify them in the grand scheme of things since they're both shooty and choppy infantry. I also realize I didn't go over Grey Knights, who really buck the trend in that their best upgrades tend to, IMO at least, be the various force weapons that they have access to.

All that being said, it seems like there may be a trend at work- in whatever way GW ultimately implemented it over multiple editions, units which can't take special/heavy weapon upgrades seem to generally have much more scalable firearms (Gauss, Tesla, Bladestorm), and other units which can take special weapons seem intended to use said special/heavy weapons to offset that lack of scalability that their basic weapons have.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be working out that well. This is, incidentally, why basic Bolters and even Stormbolters getting Shred doesn't change anything- Bladestorm is awesome because it can potentially murder any 2+ save infantry/MC model in the game, Gauss is boss due to the auto-glance in particular, while Tesla is great due to being S7, and being able to generate even more S7. Meta loves Tesla, since Meta loves S6/7 spam.

Even then, I'd say that DE Splinter weapons are still great, they just aren't quite as potentially killy as, say, Bladestorm. For killing MCs, I'd take Splinter over Gauss or Tesla, but Bladestorm over Splinter. For emergency anti-vehicle it's Gauss, then Tesla, then maybe Pulse, and then cry because nothing else can reliably- or perhaps actually- hurt armor. Lasguns are passable because they're on a really cheap dude and there's ways to up the output of a Lasgun; Hotshot Lasguns are AP3, which is nice. Shootas are on a unit which is good at punching things, and are also very cheap, while Bolters tend to be on pricier models that also don't usually have sufficient special/heavy weapon density to really scale up against the big nasty things of 6th/7th-era armies. Granted, Orks somewhat have the same problem, but they squeeze around it by being cheap and also being very capable at punching things for their cost.

Fire Warriors get around it by cheating with EMP Grenades for AV-related problems, and by having 30" of range to try and stay out of trouble. Tacs, CSM, and Sisters don't have that luxury.

TL;DR: nerf Bladestorm. Gauss and Tesla still allow armor saves to be taken, Pulse is just long range, and Splinter is useless against AV. Bladestorm is also useless against AV, I'll admit... but it still gets AP2 auto-wounds. That's pretty insane for a basic troop gun to get Pseudo-Rending.

Additional observations of note, are that grav weapons are salvo and have reduced range; ergo, one doesn't take Grav weapons on Tactical Marines, instead reserving them for the use of Bikers.

TacMarines don't charge stuff. Grey Hunters, sure. Tacmarines are not assaulters.

Unlike Loyalists, Chaos Marines do know fear, and they cannot take Combat Squads. Generally, you won't see any Bolters in a Chaos Marine army other than the occasional Termicide with Combi-bolters; the bulk of the troops get filled out with Cultists, with the rest of the points dedicated to killier units.

Dark Eldar are unique among most Xenos in that their squads have an Imperial-like ability to saturate their squads full of specials/heavies without issue. Contrast with Orks getting one Rokkit Launcha per 10 boyz, vs 4 Scourges swapping out for Haywire Blasters, or the Bikes playing bumper-cars with Cluster Caltrops...

Shred gives bolters a niche in that they are "reliable" at taking out units. They don't threaten vehicles, nor do they allow the ability to kill Monstrous Creatures that much more efficiently (you "could" stack them up firing on a Misfortuned Wraithknight, but this is an edge case at best). They still need to get up close and dirty in order to have a fight.

Other units that would benefit from Shred Bolters that haven't yet been covered, include Thousand Sons & Legion of the Damned.

Your Tac marines may not charge stuff, but mine do.

Shred might nearly double the output against Dreadknights and Riptides. But double almost nothing is still nearly nothing. And double against Wraithknights *is* literally nothing. Meanwhile, the foot troops that have been running from boltguns are even more hosed.

So, to give boltguns a niche, you turn a strong counter to things you don't care about into a hard counter. While barely changing its effectiveness against the things you care about.

I always hear about how s4 just can't threaten anything that matters. First, it makes it clear that the things that s4 does scare just don't matter to you. And second, it makes it obvious what you need help against. Shred makes the first part worse, and does nothing for the second part.

For the record, I think most people's standard of "what matters" tend to be those things that fall under "incredibly tough and/or mobile".

S4 can't hurt hurt AV11+, or T8+, and it can't reliably do anything to T6/7, nor is of great use against things with 2+ armor saves.

When you combine some of those traits (IE, T6/2+ armor, and Jump/Jetpack movement), then you get a threat that you really care about killing, especially since it often totes an inordinately powerful weapon.

And it becomes something that S4 is pretty irrelevant against.

At least, that's how I always took it.

I primarily play Chaos and Orks. I mentioned this earlier.

I would never recommend Tacmarines in their current form. Bikers (with Grav) or SoT Scouts, sure. Tacs are a tax.

Most T3 units don't intend to get within rapid-fire range anyway (barring the terribleness that is 7e Wyches). Most are meant to stay back and harass. If anything, the main targets that Shred would benefit against are T4 and T5 models...mass T5 is a thing after all...

PS: Watch your tone. Implying "you need help vs X" to discredit an author is ill-advised.

"Your Tac marines may not charge stuff, but mine do. ""

I guess that's great, but most of us have likely not had good results with this plan. In my case, it's nearly suicidal to try to get tacs in a position to assault.

Why not just make everything suck? It might not be fluffy but it would at least match our real lives.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh who are we kidding? This is real life! Now back to the line before the Commissar sees!

Wow so much drama! Fun.

Tacs are S4/T4/I4 with a 3+ save. Frag grenades to assault into cover without penalties, Krak grenades to deal with vehicles. Bolt pistols to fire into a charge. Combat Squads, ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics. Most of the units carrying the nicer troop rifles don't have equivalent stat lines, equipment or special rules. Take it into consideration.

Tacs aren't necessarily disadvantaged just because the Bolter is a simple wrapon. Most of the infantry listed above are struggling in the current meta, it's not unique to Tacs. Some of you guys should try playing a 3x Troops and 1x HQ game. Not pushing an IK into a list at 500pts.

Oh and the bit about charging with tacs ... I often use them in melee as well. I mean sometimes I just want to underwhelm my foes with sheer mediocrity. That sounds snappy but I'm just trying for a laugh. I'm serious though, Tacs are our only real tarpit unit aside from dreads. You can still use a lesser unit effectively. Not everything has to be "good".

I like my tacs just fine. Sure they could be better, but why not just buy grav star units if you want to have powerful stuff.

s4 with shred is more effective than s5. You want rapid fire s5+ for 1 ppm? Was that you writing Codex: Eldar?

darkcloak wrote:
Why not just make everything suck? It might not be fluffy but it would at least match our real lives.

Alternatively. When everyone is super... nobody will be!

Martel732 wrote:
Standard deviation is actually huge for marines. See, marines can experience "the turn". This is a turn in which meaningful statistical deviation from armor saves makes you straight up lose because you lost too much of your firepower in a single turn.

This cannot be stated enought times.

It goes for attacks as well; as an example, the rerolls to-hit in combat that AAC gave Black Templars in 5th edition was a godsend, because it meant that Black Templars, as a Marine Chapter, were much less likely to have that one turn in combat where you miss everything. Minimizing the bad outcomes is everything in 40k, I'd rather take slightly more casualties on average than have a bigger chance of catastrophic failure.

Because marine firepower is capped rather low in comparison to a true shooty list, statistical deviations in favor of marine armor saves is not nearly as beneficial as the reverse is detrimental.

I disagree.

First, baseline numbers.

1 marine making 5 saves? (2/3)^5? 32/243. 13%.
1 DA making 5 saves? (1/2)^5? 1/32. 3%.
1 Guardsman making 5 saves? 1/243. 0.4%.

10?
Marine: 1.7%
DA: 0.09%
Guardsman Boy: 0.002%

So, when it comes to frequency, that last remaining Marine has nearly twice the chance to survive 10 wounds than a DA, and over a thousand times (1024) the odds of a Guardsman. It does happen, for Marines. At nearly 2%.

Then, that one Marine with his Meltagun or PG (what? You put him out front?) does his damage.

Now let's look at it the other way:
10 Marines die to 10 wounds: (1/3)^10. 0.002%.
10 DA die to 10 wounds: 0.9%
10 Guardsmen die to 10 wounds: 1.7%.

In killing the squad, overkill does nothing. Wasted firepower.
In killing the first guy, overkill kills more.
Having one guy survive in a Fire warrior or Necron Warrior squad might be useful. But not nearly as useful as one guy in a Tac squad. The special/heavy/seargent should be the last few to die, in about the order you want. That's the huge strength of weapon upgrades: the squad doesn't lose much of its puch until its.mostly/completely gone.

Add in ATSKNF, and it gets even better.

So,
1) deviation treats Marines at least as well, if not better from deviation numbers themselves.
2) Marines after a very bad set of rolls (say, fail 4/6 instead of 1/6) will still have the brunt of their firepower (special/heavy/sarge)

So the Turn cuts both ways, but not as deep into Marines.

10 tac marines armed normally (bolters, flamer and missile launcher) shoot 9 pistols and flame a group of whatever. then they charge, Yeah they are mediocre in CC but thats because they aren't an assault unit, they are TACTICAL. very few troops choices come equipped with a ranged weapon AND a pistol. the comment made 100 times a day is jacks of all trades masters of none. This is a fact. The point of Tacs is you can equip them to do just about anything well, not great, but better then average. Compare them to any other "Troops" choice and they win most contests except the one or two things that that troop choice was built to do. I don't think Bolters need an upgrade. Maybe giving Tactical marines the option of equipping another heavy weapon or Special weapon would be nice. So you max out at 3 1 of each and then a floater for whatever you wish to do. 2 flamers and a missile launcher for spraying flaming death everywhere, 1 flamer and 2 Lascannons to pop vehicles. it would probably break tacs though :-P

For a unit to want to assault, it needn't be able to handle TH/SS Termies. It needs to handle the poor sods in front of it.

Any troop Tac Marines can't outshoot easily, it can handle in CC easily.

Many units Tac Marines can outshoot easily it can handle in CC easily.

I rarely enter a game with the strategy of getting into Assault with my Marines. But I do go in planning to use their Assault threat.

That is why you don't see them in Assault more often: selection bias. Most things know to not let Tacs assault them, unless they are a CC unit. So it forces their hands.

I would still rather see the tacs have a s:user ap:- combat knife so that they get 2 attacks to make them not pitiful in melee, and give chainswords rending, shred, or some other slight boost for asm to be a little better. Maybe half-tesla. 1 Bonus hit on 6's.
Asm currently are pretty pathetic for an assault unit, and tacticals, even though they are supposed to be all-rounders, can't fight worth a damn with one s4 attack. I wouldn't have a problem with the current bolters if tacs were actually more than just a bad shooting unit for their point cost.