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Aka, how far is the deep end?

A lot of topics talk about "but a Bolter fires mini rocket launchers" but this is not about them. This is about the oft-neglected Tactical Marine, and his big brother the Tactical Terminator. Long has he labored under the shadow of his Grav-Gun toting biker and Centurion brothers, occasionally catching bullets for the soldier lucky enough to be carrying the squad Meltagun (and combi-sergeant). All the meanwhile, the few times he does get to shoot his Bolter, cover and fluffed dice do much to result in a disappointing spurt.

Basically, I propose Bolt weapons get Shred. If the impact doesn't get you, the explosion will. The following units stand to benefit more than others:

* Scouts w/ Sentinels of Terra.
* Tacmarines (And Chaos Marines...and Power Armor Grey Knights)
* Terminators
* Attack Bikers w/ Heavy Bolters (it would be interesting to see them as an alternative to Multimeltas).
* Retributors (Shred + Rending...).

In theory, Bikes wouldn't gain *as* much due to saturation of Specials. However, my main concern would be the combining this special rule with the Dark Angel Banner of Devestation; if Bolt Weapons were to be given shred, the Banner should be modified so:

'All Friendly Dark Angels models within 12" of the Banner of Devestation fire an extra shot with their Bolt Weapons (including Storm & Heavy Bolters). A Bolter would fire 2 shots at 24", and 3 at 12"'

Your thoughts in general? Are there any trouble units that would need appropriate point adjustments? And should Shred work on all Sternguard ammo or only "some"?

No, firstly pleyers who hate marines will cite yet another marine player wanting a much needed buff to bolt weapons, 2nd, the last time we saw an army wide rule to buff basic weapons, we got bladestorm, and I would rather not open up that can of worms again.

I don't see a reason why.

I fully agree with Formosa that complete overhauls of major weapons do not work well. Especially in a weapon as ubiquitous as the bolter.

as an ork player and the subject of many relentlessly accurate bolter volleys I would be fine with that, but you would have to tac on another 2ish points per model that comes with bolt weapons as base. Otherwise knock yourself out.

I am primarily an Ork/Chaos player. The way I view it as, is:

>Tacmarines/Grey Hunters get a 1 pt hike.
>Bikes and Sternguard get a 3-pt hike.
>Most other stuff remains as-is (including non-Marine users of bolt weapons). However, up the cost of Bolters/Storm Bolters to 3/6 respectively for Inquisitorial henchmen (forgot about them for a second).

I would much rather see the big stuff dialed back than more power pumped into the smaller stuff. The power creep is getting kind of silly; "S4 shooting is bad no matter what it is" is something I never expected to hear playing 40k, but in the past six months/year I've been getting that with increasing frequency and my experiences on the tabletop have only supported it.

Im ok with my Ork S4 shooting. Or course I only get 1 shooting phase per boyz squad before They are in CC and it doesn't matter anymore :-P

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I would much rather see the big stuff dialed back than more power pumped into the smaller stuff. The power creep is getting kind of silly; "S4 shooting is bad no matter what it is" is something I never expected to hear playing 40k, but in the past six months/year I've been getting that with increasing frequency and my experiences on the tabletop have only supported it.

S4 shooting has been awful for some time now. It really wasn't that good in 5th, and then 6th just raised the bar to S6/7 spam.

Anonmander: Nobody has run Tacmarines for Bolters since 3rd edition, barring some 5e Space Wolf builds:

>3rd/4th: Templar foot hordes, or min-sized Lasplas squads. The Rhino Rush existed in early 3rd ed.
>5th: Bike Marines, BA Jumpers, and massed Razorbacks. Even Loganwing, the nominal "Foot Marine" army of 5e, was built as squads of: One Cyclone/Chainfist Terminator, 4 bulletcatchers, sprinkle with Thunderwolf/Lone Wolf support. The notable exception to this was the "4+2" Space Wolf list, where 4 Rhinos w/Grey Hunters, supported by two Razorbacks w/ Hunters, moved to midfield. A Wolf Guard unit provided backfield pressure, and the army sometimes took two "empty" Razorbacks for Wolf Guard units that were squad size 0 since they were attached elsewhere!

I played a 3v3 last night. 1k each.
Two players were GKs. Three dreadknights between them.
One was Dark Angels. Lots of Bikes.
One was Dark Eldar. Everything aside from a deep striking Scourge squad was in boats.

Of the last two, the BA player brought a bunch of Tags, but also a Baal Pred, Podded awesome-dreadnaught, and Rhino.
I was kroot/fw/fw/pathfinder with a few suits (crisis and stealth), two tanks, and a Pirhana.

Look at.those forces.
When 2 Dreadknights are running your infantry down, just how useful is boltgun fire? (Oddly, both lost half their wounds to Pulse Carbines...)
When everything is mounted up, how reliable are small arms?
Heck, even t5 3+ 5+FNP barely feel boltguns. Or other small arms.

But the Blood Angels? The Tau infantry? Boltguns (and storm bolters) were scary. And had to be avoided.

Seems to me the problem is more one of meta. The Boltgun doesn't really need to be more deadly to things t4 and under. Things t5 and up - or with great saves - need to be rarer and more expensive.

Power creep just begets power creep.

But Pandora's Box is open and T5 and things with great saves are not rare and not expensive.

So +1 to everything, in its time, indefinitely? How is that an answer?

I have bikers which are T5...and.......characters. and thats about it. I have Meganobz with 2+ and.....characters. So maybe in other armies but in mine T5 and 2+ saves are rare.

Bharring wrote:
So +1 to everything, in its time, indefinitely? How is that an answer?

Ideally, the game should be rebooted totally. As it stands now, there is no answer other than some units are god and some units are dust collectors.

Sorry, Ghaz, but ... Squiggy!

(Technically, but actually re-enforces your point...)

No. Bolters are already good.

If you don't think so, consider finding ways to use them more appropriately.

Bolters are not good for cost.

If you think so, consider finding ways to counter them more appropriately.

A beats B
B beats C
A beats C

Buff B? Wouldn't nerfing A be the better option?

Bolters are not great for their points cost on tac marines but that is because tac marines are not great for their points in general. The flip side is that 5pt bolter acolytes are great for their points.
Shred however is not the answer. Rerolling wounds is a huge boost! 6 wounds against T4 for example becomes 9 wounds, which is a huge leap. If you regularly come across wyverns you will see what I mean - they are basically bolter blasts with shred (yes they have other advantages such as barrage, twinlinked and 4 shots per model).
Stormbolters having shred would be a good shout... they need it. Makes termis better, and acolytes pay 3 times more for a stormbolter over a bolter. As it stands Sanguinary Guard have BETTER shooting than tac termis (due to ap4) because storm bolters are so meh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh - heavy bolter having shred may make it semi useful too.

But not bolters - that's too much.

Bharring wrote:
A beats B
B beats C
A beats C

Buff B? Wouldn't nerfing A be the better option?

In theory. In practice, there's a LOT to nerf now.

Certainly.

But buffing B just makes C even more useless. And I doubt this thread is talking about buffing all the relevant 'C's.

That would probably be much harder than nerfing all the 'A's.

Tac Bolters and Tac Terms arguably are the Cs.

Tac Termies, definitely.

Tacs? There is a lot in this game that is far more 'C' level than Tacs.

A "lot" you say. Meaning Fire Warriors, Wyches, Stealers and Hormagaunts. Any other notables?

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Bolters are not good for cost.

If you think so, consider finding ways to counter them more appropriately.

Exalted.

Things Tac marines can handle?
Fire warriors
Kroot
Arguably Necron Warriors (same tier at least)
Ork Shoota Boys
Ork Choppa Boys
Termagaunts
Hormagaunts
Genestealers
Guardsmen
Corsairs
Guardians
Windriders
Rangers
Dire Avengers
Wraithguard
Kalabite Warriors
Wyches
Harlequins

And that's just troops. Off the top of my head.

Bharring wrote:
Things Tac marines can handle?
Fire warriors
Kroot
Arguably Necron Warriors (same tier at least)
Ork Shoota Boys
Ork Choppa Boys
Termagaunts
Hormagaunts
Genestealers
Guardsmen
Corsairs
Guardians
Windriders
Rangers
Dire Avengers
Wraithguard
Kalabite Warriors
Wyches
Harlequins

And that's just troops. Off the top of my head.

I disagree with shoota boyz and wraithguard. And then there's the issue of whether comparing troops to troops is valid or not.

They might be close.

The trend in that list is the bigger point. Tacs might (rightly) feel marginalized, but others have it much worse.

So why buff Tacs, especially in a way that let's them run roughshod all over most things they already beat anyways.

Because the real list really does include most troops in the game. It just doesn't feel like it.

Compare almost anything to a Wave serpent and its crap.
Compare almost anything to Storm Guardians and they rock.

Hell yeah Shred!

Poly Ranger wrote:
because tac marines are not great for their points in general.

BWAHAHAAH!

Do you think repeating a great big lie often enough will actually make it true? Or do you just believe the lie yourself?

What more could you possibly want from them?

"There are larger statistical numbers than Marines have, therefore Marines aren't good." You so crazy, internet.