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 koooaei wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

Then you should plan accordingly. Think less chaff, more tarpits. Wraiths may be tough as nails and quick as lightning.. But it's going to take them quite awhile to chew through 50 fearless conscripts, 30 boyz and a nob, as well as plenty of other units which either have the sheer weight of numbers / invulnerable saves to slow those units down. I personally would encourage it because it adds another intelligent aspect to building a stupid castle-and-shoot list besides "Bring lots of dakka in many small units". Getting the likes of Tau to spread their lines and think about how they position themselves would only benefit the game.

Firstly, castling up is allready a loosing strategy with maelstorm.

Secondly, how can, for example, tau bring tarpits without allies? They have only chaff.

While a simple d6 consolidation move into another combat could be fine and not overpowered on paper, it simply has a potential of being either completely useless or completely broken.

Take note that i'm playing footslogging assaulty orkses and i'm actually having more trouble against dedicated assault armies rather than dedicated shooting armies now. In 6-th where only the last turn, fb and linebreaker mattered shooters were over the top good. But now you can't just win games sitting there.

Not every army can (or should) have every solution to every problem. That creates diversity and it's a good thing. Tau may not be able to tarpit as good as some armies, but they do have a good amount of interceptor and on some truly terrifying weapons. They can also be very mobile very easily. If push comes to shove, kroot are a fairly cheap (if not great) at the job.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

Then you should plan accordingly. Think less chaff, more tarpits. Wraiths may be tough as nails and quick as lightning.. But it's going to take them quite awhile to chew through 50 fearless conscripts, 30 boyz and a nob, as well as plenty of other units which either have the sheer weight of numbers / invulnerable saves to slow those units down. I personally would encourage it because it adds another intelligent aspect to building a stupid castle-and-shoot list besides "Bring lots of dakka in many small units". Getting the likes of Tau to spread their lines and think about how they position themselves would only benefit the game.

Firstly, castling up is allready a loosing strategy with maelstorm.

Secondly, how can, for example, tau bring tarpits without allies? They have only chaff.

While a simple d6 consolidation move into another combat could be fine and not overpowered on paper, it simply has a potential of being either completely useless or completely broken.

Take note that i'm playing footslogging assaulty orkses and i'm actually having more trouble against dedicated assault armies rather than dedicated shooting armies now. In 6-th where only the last turn, fb and linebreaker mattered shooters were over the top good. But now you can't just win games sitting there.

Not every army can (or should) have every solution to every problem. That creates diversity and it's a good thing. Tau may not be able to tarpit as good as some armies, but they do have a good amount of interceptor and on some truly terrifying weapons. They can also be very mobile very easily. If push comes to shove, kroot are a fairly cheap (if not great) at the job.

At the same time every army should be able to do something in every situation, even if they're not particularly good at it. Tau had a really hard time in 4e/5e against long-assault-threat armies because their only melee stalling unit was a speed bump at best. There shouldn't be a trick that invalidates a Codex because they're not equipped to fight it.

Can we all agree at least that Weapon Skill has been the most worthless stats for a long time?

As a Sisters player, the changes in assault in 6th and 7th edition has helped us greatly (as we operated in close range but had limited CC ability). But assault is really too weak.

If WS used the same chart as toughness, outnumbering gave penalties, and charging was not purely random, I could see horde assault units useful again. Genestealers and Khorne units should be terrifying.

I just got back into the game, having last played in 3rd ed. The very first thing I noticed in 7th is how considerably more powerful guns are. Coupled with being able to pre-measure, and not having to guess for IDF weapons, shooting is far easier and beneficial. There is no more "my whirlwind will shoot this squad. I think they're 36.213" away!" (Note: not saying these changes are wrong, just an observation).

Something like the Riptide with the ion pie plate of doom didn't exist in 3rd, making it significantly easier for an assault unit to make it across the board. The end result is 90% of an assault army making it into melee, with devastating effect, and no recourse for the shooting army. I think assault rules closer to 3rd would be less egregious now than they were back then since you'll lose 2/3 of your army by the time you get to melee range.

My hope would then be that the relative power is balanced, and then it comes down to strategy and dice gods.

Should you be able to assault from drop pods? Maybe, how about make it a relatively expensive upgrade and call it "Airbags" for 50 points. However, should you be able to assault from something like GoI? Probably not. You just traveled through the warp, and are probably disoriented / have some gross nurgle gak on you.

The one rule that does vex me is having to roll for charge distance. The same logic of "these are trained warriors, and know how far they can shoot" should also go for "these are trained warriors and know how far they can run." I'm not suggesting 12" charge for all units, but the old 6" / 12" for foot / jump units at least made sense.

I don't think 3rd ed was remotely fair for Xenos, but now most marine units have been busted back down to 2nd ed efficacy. There are the select few things that work; everything else just dies.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think 3rd ed was remotely fair for Xenos, but now most marine units have been busted back down to 2nd ed efficacy. There are the select few things that work; everything else just dies.

Eldar Altoic lists

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think 3rd ed was remotely fair for Xenos, but now most marine units have been busted back down to 2nd ed efficacy. There are the select few things that work; everything else just dies.

So, does grav star equal vortex grenades?

Exactly. Unfortunately, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Actually grav star is better, because it can be used over and over.

Assault needs to be able to take on the many new threats that have been added since 5th edition.
Power Creep has really done a number against the assault phase. Cheaper massed fire power means that an assaulting unit takes more casualties on it's way into combat. A turn of footslogging is now more costly since the deadliness of shooting has risen, while the deadliness of running across the table has remained the same.

Assault is still useful in 7th edition, but often for the wrong reasons. Now it's been relegated to Tar pitting. Warhammer should never be designed around not killing an enemy squad in the assault.

6th also added flyers to 40k, they're barely fit in with the rest of the game however. Shooty units have to fire snapshots, but assault units are SOL. It's particularly egregious considering that you can't build a take all comers list without including an AA unit. Chaos Daemons have to take a Soul Grinder or Allies for example.


My solution to flyers is to let Jump Pack and Jet Pack units assault flyers, although minus the added assault range they normally get.

As for Tar Pitting, I propose a more radical solution where a unit assaulting or being assaulted can separate into 2 groups, a shooting group and an assaulting group. The shooting group wouldn't be able to leave unit coherency with assault group, but would be able to shoot and be shot at as normal. The Shooting group would also share the same fate as the assault group, if the assault group gets swept or completely wiped out the whole unit is removed as a casualty. When splitting a unit into the 2 groups you must match the number of models (up to the full squad) as your opponent is committing to the assault group, as models die you can be forced to shift your shooting models back into the assault group.

For thos not convinced just keep in mind;

-Assault units, must run up the whole table to get to your shooty units, shooty units doesn't have to move, the assault units then takes 1-2-3 turns of shooting where they can't retaliate in anyway if they are not in a 12" radius(in most cases).
-In CC both sides strikes at the other, shooting?, its a one way hail of bullets.
-If a unit has done his job too good in an CC phase, he gets shot at by the others units who are nearby.
-Duels.., for shytes and giggles they should put a "Mexican stand off" mecanic to shooting phase..." if in a 12" radius of an ennemy character, both models shoot at each other, the other models stand their in awe for the marksmanship of the contestants(or lack of), we'll see if this is still a good thing...
-Randomness of Random assault ranges..., really?...was it so difficult to leave it at 6" assault range?, or like in fantasy 6+D6?..., how is it logicall to fail a 4" assault in an open terrain?..., if the shooting range of weapons was also a "throw 4D6 and you have your range" then i would be like" okay thats fair", but your plasma and bolters and other stuff still shoot at 24" while i can fail a 3" charge.

I'm not saying that Assault units should be like in the 3rd Ed days.

5th was the best in Shooty Vs Assault balance, the thing about 5th was the tanks and mechs, where a tank could be stunned 10 times without any effects, and this got "fixed" ( more like busted) in 6th, so they din't need to touch the rest of the rules, except for some minor and subtle changes that where neccesary.

Assaults ranges, Duels, and assaulting from a stationary transport where not amongts the things that should have been changed/added.