A sensitive issue...

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**The Grumpy Eldar**

Actually it's kinda logical that human population became a huge melting pot, mostly resulting in most of the population having one skintone. As this is in the far, far future. It seems possible.

It would differentiate for people on all kind of planets and all that as not all habitats are the same.

Still, I doubt that this is what they had in mind when they went "Just use one skintone!"

**the_scotsman**

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
You know why racial diversity in this game and in many games doesn't matter? Because if you slapped full body armor and helmets on every single model it would not matter what ethnicity or gender the individual was. Characters in 40k are not defined in the slightest by their ethnicity or gender, they are defined by their race and/or what kind of planet they are from. There are no multicultural nations in 40k, you are human, you are from the Empire of Man. Your own personal head canon of fluff is just fine, encouraged even, but the company producing the game takes no stance in any direction based on ethnicity or gender. They could make models that have definitive ethnic traits but they tend to only do that with special characters because it might help to define them, the basic rank and file get a generic as possible face. You can try and claim that they are Caucasian but I would have to disagree, they don't really have an definitive traits that identify them as anything.

Could they make more ethnically diverse models? Yes. Should they? Maybe. The issue is that making the distinction and saying that a potato headed Catachan is Caucasian seems odd to me because they just look liked horrible heroic scaled human heads rather than any identifiable group.

I think the giant boob plates, combat miniskirts and tactical high heels of the sisters of battle would still give them away as female even with helmets.

But it's sure a good thing that being female isn't a huge part of the character of the SISTERS of battle. Or units like the Howling Banshees or Bloodbrides, or Daemonettes of the Sexy Sexy God.

Is there an all female unit in 40k where "all female" isn't called out in their unit/army name?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Actually it's kinda logical that human population became a huge melting pot, mostly resulting in most of the population having one skintone. As this is in the far, far future. It seems possible.

It would differentiate for people on all kind of planets and all that as not all habitats are the same.

Still, I doubt that this is what they had in mind when they went "Just use one skintone!"

Yes, but they'd be brown. There would be no non-dark hair and no white skin, especially seeing as white skin would be a disadvantage on any world that saw more sunlight.

**Sienisoturi**

the_scotsman wrote:
Sienisoturi wrote:
Could somebody tell me why is this diversity such a self obvious thing that has to be everywhere? Also, for those people that insist on making a diverse army there already exists one that has been shown in artwork and fluff to employ a very heterogenous army composition, which is black templars.

Because diversity is a self-obvious thing that is pretty much everywhere?

Walk down a street. Count the ratio of women:men (probably 50% or close if you don't live in the 3rd world) and count the ratio of nonwhite people:white people. Can change depending on where you live, I grew up in one of the more white areas of the USA and it was probably around 20%.

Now crack open a comic book. Play a video game. Watch a movie. And look at the model range of 40k.

Do the same count. For 40k, models that are sculpted to be female: Even building the max number of female models in kits that have optional female torsos, I'm going to estimate 10% of the total model range? And models sculpted to be/canonically not white: 1 currently in production, actually I don't know if the AM Khan guy has a sculpt. 2 if you count mutant Hestan. There's a Space Wolf terminator head modeled to be Mr. T, so maybe 3?

I'm not saying "OMG GW is so oppressive to women and minorities maaaaan" because it's not like they're going out of their way to create just caucasian models, they're just creating what they know. Making a character your race by default is what people have been doing for thousands of years. I mean, when was the last time you saw a picture of Jesus that looked like he walked out of the middle east?

And as to "paint them how you like" I don't know if you've tried painting a black 40k model before, but it rarely works very well. For one thing, you're going to have to do a lot of color mixing, because as others have said, there's no dark flesh tones from GW or really any company. Second, he's basically got to be bald, because I can't find a single head in my bitz box here that has even curly hair. Now try to find one without a big strong saxon chin and browline, a thin nose, and thin or nonexistant lips? There isn't one because most GW dudes all have the exact same face. For reference, I'm talking about locating a head that doesn't look like this: http://17rg073sukbm1lmjk9jrehb643.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/gaston1.png in bald or crewcut.

Honestly, it is probably the single least important issue that this game currently has. EVERYTHING ELSE is more important. If GW publicly apologized for that tomorrow and said 'we pinky swear we will now adhere 100% perfectly to racial and gender demographics from now on guys' I would be right up there with everyone else asking why THIS was one thing they decided to fix.

But, like it is everywhere else, it is here too, and tbh it's probably the reason this game has less traction the smaller percentage of a population in any given area of the world is something other than white males.

To me making every single part of the world have the exact same demographic percentages simply for the sake of it would be quite silly. Can you tell me what immediate advantage could this bring?

**Arbiter_Shade**

the_scotsman wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
You know why racial diversity in this game and in many games doesn't matter? Because if you slapped full body armor and helmets on every single model it would not matter what ethnicity or gender the individual was. Characters in 40k are not defined in the slightest by their ethnicity or gender, they are defined by their race and/or what kind of planet they are from. There are no multicultural nations in 40k, you are human, you are from the Empire of Man. Your own personal head canon of fluff is just fine, encouraged even, but the company producing the game takes no stance in any direction based on ethnicity or gender. They could make models that have definitive ethnic traits but they tend to only do that with special characters because it might help to define them, the basic rank and file get a generic as possible face. You can try and claim that they are Caucasian but I would have to disagree, they don't really have an definitive traits that identify them as anything.

Could they make more ethnically diverse models? Yes. Should they? Maybe. The issue is that making the distinction and saying that a potato headed Catachan is Caucasian seems odd to me because they just look liked horrible heroic scaled human heads rather than any identifiable group.

I think the giant boob plates, combat miniskirts and tactical high heels of the sisters of battle would still give them away as female even with helmets.

But it's sure a good thing that being female isn't a huge part of the character of the SISTERS of battle. Or units like the Howling Banshees or Bloodbrides, or Daemonettes of the Sexy Sexy God.

Is there an all female unit in 40k where "all female" isn't called out in their unit/army name?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Actually it's kinda logical that human population became a huge melting pot, mostly resulting in most of the population having one skintone. As this is in the far, far future. It seems possible.

It would differentiate for people on all kind of planets and all that as not all habitats are the same.

Still, I doubt that this is what they had in mind when they went "Just use one skintone!"

Yes, but they'd be brown. There would be no non-dark hair and no white skin, especially seeing as white skin would be a disadvantage on any world that saw more sunlight.

If Sisters of Battle were changed to Brother Militant and changed to absurdly religious zealots who bathed heretics in the holy flame of the Emperor would it really change anything about the army? I am not saying there are no female models in the line, what I am saying is that their distinction as female doesn't define who or what they are. Howling Banshees could just as well be a group of men as a group of women. Same thing with any of the female units in the game. Hell, Daemonettes are ANDROGYNOUS in the fluff being neither male nor female.

40k doesn't deal with the social problems that we deal with in todays world, it is purely a fantasy world where everything is all about war all the time. People need to stop looking for what isn't there, no one in the GW design team is putting that much thought into the social implications of a game based on the far future where everything is grim dark. Hell, implying they put much thought into anything seems to be a bit of a stretch past how much money will X bring in?

An army doesn't have to reflect the person playing it, that is purely your choice and what you want to do with the models. If it were the other way then who the hell are Tyranids for?

**Crimson Devil**

lustigjh wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
General Kroll wrote:
Kind of odd in this day and age isn't it.
Not if you live in the US South.

A thread about diversity acceptance wouldn't be complete with a completely unironic cheap shot at the US South. Have you even been to the South?

**Crystal-Maze**

lustigjh wrote:
Crystal-Maze wrote:
lustigjh wrote:
Drager wrote:
The company has very low internal diversity in staff and a poor to non existent handle on the idea that this is even relevant

Honestly though, is it? Who really needs enforced diversity standards in a game?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sienisoturi wrote:
Could somebody tell me why is this diversity such a self obvious thing that has to be everywhere?

Because we're on the Internet which is where the PC police tend to soap box their views

We don't want to 'enforce' them; no-one is proposing sanctions, or a quota. If there was a touch more representation in the game, it might have attracted a few more customers from different ethnicities/genders, and the company might not be in such dire financial straights as it is today.

That's doubtful. I don't see people being "scared away" from Tau, Necrons, Daemons, or Eldar because they're not white people.

Fair point on the "enforced" statement. My political rants are starting to influence my gaming rants.

The 'scared away' comment was somewhat hyperbolous, but in that case the defining characteristic of the tau etc. whould be 'not black people'.

Its probably easy to see from my comments history how much my political rants leak into my gaming rants too. We're all fallible, right?

**lustigjh**

Crimson Devil wrote:
lustigjh wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
General Kroll wrote:
Kind of odd in this day and age isn't it.
Not if you live in the US South.

A thread about diversity acceptance wouldn't be complete with a completely unironic cheap shot at the US South. Have you even been to the South?

Having grown up in Texas and given my family still lives in the south; its a valid criticism.

lustigjh wrote:
You're wrong, all I have to do is come on dakka and read your posts if I want narrow minded nutjobs. Have you actuality listened to him when he repeatedly says "this is just my belief..." or are you just assuming he's a bigot because he's Mormon?

I have lived in Utah for the past twenty years I can say being Mormon doesn't make you a bigot, but I have yet to meet a Utah bigot who wasn't Mormon.

**Silverthorne**

You realize the South has greater diversity in all levels of education, political office holders, and law enforcement than the North, right? Oh, no? Shocker. Check out Nate SIlver's graphs on segregation integration ratings for different communities. Maybe prepare a fainting couch first....

**Azaghâl**

This reminds of the episode of South Park with the town flag.

That being said, I have a mostly black Catachan force. I didn't paint them, and the colour of their skin didn't influence my purchase.
The first time I got them out at my FLGS with pride and joy that I finally get to play a game with them, the first thing I heard was "Oh cool they're all black guys!" To me that is bizarre and questionable on a few levels (both to the person who said it and the culture that made it so people may have cause to say such a sentence).
In regards to relating yourself to your plastic guys on the table top, again the skin colour doesn't make a difference.
Someone pointed this out too me (saying something along the lines of "You're not a black guy!").
My response was - "No, and you're not an angry Egyptian themed robot with the soul of an Ancient being trapped inside."

Diversity isn't just non existent in GW, the vast majority of mass/consumable media plays along to the same tune.
It's how you as an individual deal with it that matters - *cue South Park reference from the beginning*

**Wulfmar**

I find this more amusing - some companies good-naturedly have actually tried producing models with features of different nationalities.

This just resulted in over-emphasis on certain features in an attempt to differentiate them from the standard Caucasian models you see.

The results were horrific and if anything mini-metal parodies that could be considered more racist then if someone had just used paint to signify race.

Your models, you paint them how you like.

**Smokeydubbs**

My models all come in grey out of the box. It's up to the painter to decide what skin color they are. So in my opinion, any type of perceived racism is just that; perceived.

In the official books, I assume the models are painted in light colors to show off the detail, as it's very well known that dark colors make it hard to see.

**DaKKaLAnce**

Pretty sure there was a very large threat about this topic that was locked that got out of hand

Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/450/627340.page#7553285

This one

**R3con**

General Knoll are your armies painted white?

**General Kroll**

The one guy who's showing any flesh that's currently painted is yes. But the main reason I asked the question was because I was thinking of mixing things up a bit with some of the other models. Have plans for a pretty bad ass inquisitor, think I will paint him to be a black dude.

**Poly Ranger**

Crimson Devil wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Hawky wrote:
Why is almost everyone obssesed with "diversity"... Does it really matter?

Yes.

Actually, that strongly depends on the country you live in. It is not an issue in much of Europe.

You mean yet.

Given the number of people being displaced by violence and lack of resources in Africa and the Middle East, Europe is a prime destination. And most countries in Europe are not integrated very well. A fact that will come to bite you in the ass in the coming decades.

Britain was labelled as the 'world's social experiment' during the 50's to the present day due to the wide range of people who have emigrated from their own countries to settle in Britain. From Near and Far East Asia, to the Middle East, Africa, and Western and Eastern Europe. Believe me when I say - we are a VERY diverse nation, and so much the stronger for it, no matter what our UKIP party would have us believe.

**rustproof**

I'm going to see if some darker skinned guardsmen are easier than white, when I base coat light brown anyways skipping the pink and using darker washes should yield faster results...and it's only racist if you put the darker models at the front.

**R3con**

Black skin is significantly less forgiving when highlighting and shadowing than white.

**Ghazkuul**

I think the only correct answer in this situation is "Who Cares" and a further answer to that question would be something along the lines of "If you care then you may be a racist" or "If your really that butt hurt by the color people paint plastic/metal figures then you need some psychological help."

of course in the BRB it specifically says you have to paint all humans white or tan is kind of a racist rule....ohh wait that doesn't exist.

Don't make something out of nothing, frigging racism hate mongers.

**ArmageddonBorn**

Sienisoturi wrote:
for those people that insist on making a diverse army there already exists one that has been shown in artwork and fluff to employ a very heterogenous army composition, which is black templars.

Hi, I'm just wondering if you could explain what you meant by this. I know BT doesn't have a home planet, but I kinda got the feeling that they were all essentially... Germanic.

**Ashiraya**

Probably because they recruit from the planets they encounter, and to my knowledge they do not discriminate based on the skin colour of the recruit. Therefore they are likely to be diverse.

**Eihnlazer**

Crystal-Maze wrote:
10penceman wrote:
Because very few people paint them that way because they don't want to as simple an answer as it is. The fact you care is bit fecked up you don't see pink orks where is the equality in that lmao. No women imperial guard squats have also not been added.

Let's face it gw gave you all the equality they can by telling you to paint them any which way you want. Equality is when people are treated equally without notice of colour sex or creed not when people see only white people and claim its wrong because there is no black people or if its all Asian people and there is no white people and so on be like me colour blind. I see people most dumb as feck. No such thing as raciest we all belong to one race the human race any thing else is pointless.

As for complaining about women models with large breasts or such like where is the complaints about the guys with all muscles or the guys that are all meant to be 6-7 foot it can go on and on accept the game for what it is a game which you can personally convert paint to look like anything you want and stop the guff its all a political nightmare people are people end of story and sod anyone who thinks them selves belonging to a sub group just because of something stupid as skin colour.

If you want to think about all the races in the book are xenophobic true raciest or religious nut jobs you don't like it don't play the game

Small unimportant rant over

I'd just like to break this down a bit.

"you don't see pink orks where is the equality in that lmao" - The overrepresentation of green people in the ork community is not a problem, because (and I can't stress this enough) there are no green people.

"No women imperial guard squats have also not been added. " - quite a few gamers complain about the lack of female imperial guard, and there are several third party companies which do very well out of the fact. I can only imagine that no-one complains about the lack of female squats because of the lack of squats in general.

"Let's face it gw gave you all the equality they can by telling you to paint them any which way you want". Except that people's faces are different shapes, and all of the human faces that GW models are caucasian in shape - often in an exaggerated fashion. They also chose to set an example in the 'eavy metal team by painting nearly all of their models white.

" Equality is when people are treated equally without notice of colour sex or creed not when people see only white people and claim its wrong because there is no black people " - surely equality is what people are represented in the media proportionally. We cannot make all of our characters white and then complain when people think that there is something dodgy with that (because there is something dodgy with it).

"As for complaining about women models with large breasts or such like where is the complaints about the guys with all muscles" - in a wargame, large muscles are useful. They make the character look strong, intimidating. Occasionally, they are over-emphasised i.e. catachans, marauders. Large breasts are completely useless in war. I would far rather see a female model with over-emphasised musculature. It would be refreshing.

"sod anyone who thinks them selves belonging to a sub group just because of something stupid as skin colour." - except that society constantly treats people as being different because of their skin colour; when people of ethnic minorities constantly get a raw deal in our society, I think that it is incredibly hypocritical to then say that they should not identify with others of their minority as a mark of solidarity.

I'll let you google why 'colourblindness' is a useless ideology in a racially biased society for yourself.

While you are absolutely right about societies views on the matter (thusly making it matter), this is the whole problem. Colourblindness is the way society should treat it. Minority groups do not "get the raw end of the deal" in most situations, they themselves do not try to better themselves and get above their situation in lives. Every person in the USA has the ability to go to school and work; they also have the choice to not commit crimes and to make connections with people to better their life. If they dont do that, thats on them.

**Crimson Devil**

If everyone had the chance to start life in the same circumstances than your attitude might be valid. Not everyone can afford school. And being part of a minority group doesn't make you predeposed towards crime.

**Skriker**

Oddly as a long time british colonials player, and darkest africa themed war gamer I usually have the opposite problem of armies full of figures with nary a white soul to be seen anywhere. In darkest africa even forces that are "european" will not have a large white presence. Your typical british DA force will include african tribals with bows/spears, levy african askari musket men, units of colonial elites like sikhs and then lead by a few white officers/hero types. Historical representations kind of make the decision for us when it comes to skin color on the models and people scratch their heads if you african tribals all have white skin.

Outside of the historical context in a sci-fi setting paint your models what you like. Diversity in life is significant. Worrying about diversity in painted toy soldiers is really kind of pointless.

**Drager**

The main reason Colourblindness deosn't work is Unconcious Racial Bias its the same reason that higher diversity alone doesn't solve racial bias problems. Racial bias is a fascinating area of social study, as are other areas of bias and privilege, but they are very uncomfortable if you are in a powerful, privileged group, because you will find bigoted behaviours in yourself, even if you think you have none when you take a proper look.

That link takes you to a google scholar search on racial bias, so you can look at some journal articles on the subject if you are so inclined.

I see lots of people saying paint your models how you like, but I don't think that solves the initial problem as brought up. That was representation in the fluff and official materials, how you paint your collection won't influence that.

**Mustela**

Honestly, in terms of institutional racism there are far worse offenders than GW. It would be good for them to represent people outside of their own demographic from a moral and fluff perspective, but in the end they're just model makers. When there are institutions in positions of power causing direct social harm, I think GW gets a free pass on this. In the mean time go to town and paint your models however you want.

**gummyofallbears**

I saw this post, read a few comments, them scrolled down to comment, so pardon me if I just repeat something that has already been said.

I think the reason GW has a basically only white model force, its because they probably want a uniform force.

Witch makes sense for selling models, although female and black imperial guard don't really fit with the overall army, and that looks bad.

and in responce to Drager -

What?

I have never considered banshees or sisters to be over sexualized.

Although these models have boobs, is that a bad thing?

There needs to be a way to differentiate the female models from the male, and really are armoured boobs that bad, because in my opinion, thats not a bad thing.

**Radiation**

I like boobs!

**Buttery Commissar**

Personally I paint my regiments mixed race because realistically if you take 40-70 people from one planet, they're not even gonna be the same colour of white skin as one another amongst them.
I have been criticised for this to my face, before. More than once. Not the paint job, but, "You can't have black [x]."

Bewilderingly there's a lot of women and IIRC a few non-white folks in the Only War rulebook, despite there being sweet F A in the actual 40K figure range. Look at the prices that 3rd party female imperial figures go for, and tell me there's not a market.

Hawky wrote:
Why is almost everyone obssesed with "diversity"... Does it really matter?

Diversity for diversity's sake, no.
For the sake of inclusion and the sense of belonging in a hobby? Abso-fething-lutely.

If there are few or no examples of diversity to begin with, you cannot expect to engage diverse people.

To over-simplify, 40K is to wargaming what James Bond classically was for film and literature (stick with me here).
In an imagination-based heroic setting, we want to imagine ourselves as part of that world, right? These amazing characters, powerful or flawed, folks sympathise and deeply relate to them.
Going back to the example: Who in early James Bond films or lit anyone who isn't a caucasian male easily picture themselves as?
Who can an Asian fella easily picture himself as? Who is a young lady watching the film going to want to be? There's no powerful or heroic figure to relate to for either of them.

That's pretty much how 40K feels looking at it from the outside if you're not in the typical demographic.

**jSewell**

You guys do realize that these sculpts they create and paint is an ART and you are trying to tell them they need to change their art?

How about you go create your own art instead of trying to censor/PC/change someone else's?

Being offended has done nothing for anyone. Ever.

**Mustela**

jSewell wrote:
You guys do realize that these sculpts they create and paint is an ART and you are trying to tell them they need to change their art?

How about you go create your own art instead of trying to censor/PC/change someone else's?

Being offended has done nothing for anyone. Ever.

No one here seems offended besides you.

Something being art doesn't automatically make it above criticism. Making art doesn't automatically justify the consequences it creates.

Personally I really don't consider GW models art, or at least not on the same level as "high art." That's a pretty mercurial topic though and pretty subjective so I'll leave it at that.

Anyways, GW sees itself as a company, not an artist. As a company it is reliant on the customers to support it. Seems to me a lot of customers want a greater diversity of models. I really don't see what's wrong with this.