Maelstrom's Edge: A Kickstarter Post Mortem

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**Talizvar**

Well, the communication and honesty on all fronts is good to see.
Like what was pointed out by Legoburner: we are colored by our own views even when we try to be fair.

My first and only kickstarter is Robotech RPG Tactics.
It generated 1.4 million (hardly seems fair does it?).
It has been a 2 year pain in the backside but I did get my stuff! (part of it...)

So YES KS fatigue many people have interesting stories around this line and even with what looks like a solid KS... I just could not bring myself to do it.

Next: Games Workshop.
Your models like what was mentioned with the Victoria miniatures very much had that style and looked like it could be a substitute for those models and were compared with them.
But they are not meant to be a substitute and you would not want to.
Warhammer 40k games rules are horrible for meeting new players... if I was to play something different from 40k, I really, really, want it to look different.
The rules can be airtight and maybe it would be a really cool basis as a substitute core mechanic for 40k for those of us heavily invested in it.

The terrain bit sprue is awesome.
I want a few dozen.
To be able to take bits of stuff lying around and have just enough details to make it all nice... terrain lego... has been needed for a long time.
I had grabbed a bunch of Mordhiem bits for the card terrain for the same purpose a long time ago.

I think each person may have a different "excuse" but this is mine.
Dakka is my #1 hangout for hobby much like my local FLGS but you both have something in common: you do not carry anything different enough from what I already have.

**MajorTom11**

Weeble I find that was quite well put.

5 years ago, being GW compatible was golden. It is arguable that at the time a huge portion of the 3rd party industry exists purely to leverage/supplement GW models.

Now? I don't know anymore. I find that KS's have impacted expectations quite deeply... 5 years ago, my impression was people really wanted options to create their own amazing conversions, bits were really in demand... the top hobby people wanted to put their own spin on things all the time, and the crowd that idolized them tried to do the same. But now though, with the influx of restic and pre-production CG, it seems to me that elaborate monopose with very, very limited conversion possibilities is more what people want... They expect the detail to be there and not much to be done once they get the model. It's a different mentality.

I rarely see all these crazy KS models painted up though after the fact... never saw a full sedition wars set, or a full robotech set done to really high standards... though i admit I don't look too much these days... I would expect most people don't have the skill level to 'do justice' to some of the crazier restic sculpts I have seen. It seems like the purchases are very rarely followed up with the 'full hobby commit' that GW and GW oriented tournaments kind of force you into?

Do you guys agree with that? Do you find demand for 'conversion friendly' minis has drastically fallen compared to single pose demand? Do models like infinity stuff (which I love the look of), get converted much? I'm not talking about glueing a new gun on, talking like fairly involved converting.

Just curious what the take on that is -

**cincydooley**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:

I personally found that the fiction, the whole approach to creating a full setting in fact, really made Medge stand apart from other games. It spoke to their intentions to create a much more well-rounded experience for certain kinds of gamers. Look at how much the Black Library fiction has done for GW, and now BL is dying off. D&D fiction has been tremendously important in shaping the game, as well as an entire set of similar games. In the other direction, Mantic has been very neglectful of their fluff, and still have to release lists so players can use KoW rules to play games in other companies' settings with other companies' minis. There is nothing at all to make someone want to build a purely Mantic army outside of model aesthetics, which are often considered insufficient.

Don't get me wrong; I don't think having the fluff is bad. But I think this is an instance of where when you try to do everything, you do nothing great. The same happened with the first Wild West Exodus KS with their novel; it was incredibly underwhelming.

I'm not intending to say that they shouldn't do it. Far from it, in fact. But I think there could have been some benefit from a more focused campaign that didn't include a bunch of audio books, and didn't include a card game, but instead focused on the core product. All of those auxiliary items are things one can release later once things are more established for that core product line. I actually think it's incredibly admirable that they have ideas for novels and audiobooks and card games, even if I have no interest in them. I simply question if those products caused some scope creep, as it were.

**Talizvar**

MajorTom11 wrote:
But now though, with the influx of restic and pre-production CG, it seems to me that elaborate monopose with very, very limited conversion possibilities is more what people want... They expect the detail to be there and not much to be done once they get the model. It's a different mentality.
I rarely see all these crazy models painted up, though i admit I don't look too much these days... I would expect most people don't have the skill level to 'do justice' to some of the crazier restic sculpts I have seen.
Do you guys agree with that? Do you find demand for 'conversion friendly' minis has drastically fallen compared to single pose demand? Do models like infinity stuff (which I love the look of), get converted much? I'm not talking about glueing a new gun on, talking like fairly involved converting.
Just curious what the take on that is -

Just look up any thread of "painted vs unpainted" (no! do not lock this thread! do not "bane" me!)
Many people want what is a fancy looking chess piece.
Many will leave them unpainted and feel they are pretty enough to not need any.
Other people who like to paint will say: "challenge accepted" and have a go.
Those who like to convert too will say: "challenge accepted" and break out the knives and green stuff.

Note: the need to convert or make models different is in direct proportion of how big the game is: skirmish? Good as is.
Dragging out the Robotech comparison: 20 parts for a mini less than 1.5" is a tall order for people who want to get down to playing.

**cincydooley**

MajorTom11 wrote:

Do you guys agree with that? Do you find demand for 'conversion friendly' minis has drastically fallen compared to single pose demand? Do models like infinity stuff (which I love the look of), get converted much? I'm not talking about glueing a new gun on, talking like fairly involved converting.

Just curious what the take on that is -

You know, I think so. Consider that GW has moved to monopose plastic models instead of the character boxes like the Chaos Lord or the Empire Generals set, and I think there are some real tangible benefits to those types of figures. For one, you can get a much more dynamic looking model out of a single post HIPS piece. We see it with all the new GW ones and we see it with all the Wyrd models. To get the same sense of movement out of, say, a tactical marines kit is much harder to do. It can, of course, be done, but often requires both more time and skill to do so.

As far as infinity conversions go, I think the most common thing you see is weapon swaps.

**BobtheInquisitor**

MajorTom11 wrote:

Do you guys agree with that? Do you find demand for 'conversion friendly' minis has drastically fallen compared to single pose demand?

Yes. I think this was the biggest shock to me about the campaign. I saw the Epirian sprue and I saw some decent mini torsos with great guns that just begged for some bit swaps or conversions. The feedback focused on the Epirians as they were presented, fully assembled and painted. Same thing with some of the drones and the robots. For example, the firefly drone's fans--completely separate pieces already--were not in the best place, or the scarecrow's shoulder gun--a separate piece!--was too far forward. Those problems don't even require gs to fix, but seemed to be dealbreakers. Looking at it from the point of view of someone who wants artistically-designed monopose minis, ME suddenly looked a lot less attractive. People want more Infinity than GW in their minis these days, I guess?

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Personally, I think of liquorice.

Personally, I think bad guys from Babylon 5

For all the talk of style, aesthetics, evolution of PP models etc etc

It boils down to this: do you like these models? Yes or no? When I looked at the ME kickstarter, that's what directed my judgement. All this talk of flowing lines is neither here nor there. I see sci-fi and fantasy tropes that have been around for decades and in some cases, centuries. Talk of originality is a red herring, as far as I'm concerned.

People have expressed dismay at GW's Cadian models for being out-dated. Your out-dated is my preferred model. I still think they look good, despite their age YMMV.

Again, I reiterate, you either like the models or you don't. That's my criteria when passing judgement on appearance.

Naturally, you never judge a book by its cover. I've played plenty of games that had ugly models, but also had a superb system that kept me entertained for hours.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
MajorTom11 wrote:

Do you guys agree with that? Do you find demand for 'conversion friendly' minis has drastically fallen compared to single pose demand?

Yes. I think this was the biggest shock to me about the campaign. I saw the Epirian sprue and I saw some decent mini torsos with great guns that just begged for some bit swaps or conversions. The feedback focused on the Epirians as they were presented, fully assembled and painted. Same thing with some of the drones and the robots. For example, the firefly drone's fans--completely separate pieces already--were not in the best place, or the scarecrow's shoulder gun--a separate piece!--was too far forward. Those problems don't even require gs to fix, but seemed to be dealbreakers. Looking at it from the point of view of someone who wants artistically-designed monopose minis, ME suddenly looked a lot less attractive. People want more Infinity than GW in their minis these days, I guess?

You replied to my points about 40k's background. This thread is not the place for such a discussion, but I'm happy to continue it in another thread if you want. But not tonight. It's late here in the UK and it's been a long day

**PsychoticStorm**

MajorTom11 wrote:

Do you guys agree with that? Do you find demand for 'conversion friendly' minis has drastically fallen compared to single pose demand? Do models like infinity stuff (which I love the look of), get converted much? I'm not talking about glueing a new gun on, talking like fairly involved converting.

Just curious what the take on that is -

Ultimately, the biggest problem GW created on themselves when they introduced plastics, was to make dynamic, characterful models into blunt multipart plastic models, they successfully turned this into the conversion mania that was prevalent all the decades GW was strong, now with their decline, the emergence of new modern game and model companies and the plethora of options (and sadly the steady decline in free time), people show a migration to the preference that existed before GW dominance detailed characterful mono pose models.

Personally I am not interested in making a model look good, I do not want to "convert" a model in order to make it look as if it is doing something, or kitbash 3 different kits in order to make one look good, I wand models that are great from the start and designed to look dynamic and characterful, something only monopose models can offer, not "multipart" models (people really should stop saying multipart, its multiposed).

I do convert and I do convert a lot, but I do it as an option and not as a necessity, monoposed models that look great from the start are better than multiposed models that need to be made into a pose to look good.

**weeble1000**

MajorTom11 wrote:
Weeble I find that was quite well put.

5 years ago, being GW compatible was golden. It is arguable that at the time a huge portion of the 3rd party industry exists purely to leverage/supplement GW models.

Now? I don't know anymore. I find that KS's have impacted expectations quite deeply... 5 years ago, my impression was people really wanted options to create their own amazing conversions, bits were really in demand... the top hobby people wanted to put their own spin on things all the time, and the crowd that idolized them tried to do the same. But now though, with the influx of restic and pre-production CG, it seems to me that elaborate monopose with very, very limited conversion possibilities is more what people want... They expect the detail to be there and not much to be done once they get the model. It's a different mentality.

I rarely see all these crazy KS models painted up though after the fact... never saw a full sedition wars set, or a full robotech set done to really high standards... though i admit I don't look too much these days... I would expect most people don't have the skill level to 'do justice' to some of the crazier restic sculpts I have seen. It seems like the purchases are very rarely followed up with the 'full hobby commit' that GW and GW oriented tournaments kind of force you into?

Do you guys agree with that? Do you find demand for 'conversion friendly' minis has drastically fallen compared to single pose demand? Do models like infinity stuff (which I love the look of), get converted much? I'm not talking about glueing a new gun on, talking like fairly involved converting.

Just curious what the take on that is -

I think it is a very fair assessment. It is sort of sad, in a way, but from a different angle it is very exciting. I will re-post here something that I recently posted in a Random Platypus thread:

As some others have mentioned, the evolution of 'styles' in table top games miniatures has had a lot to do with the evolution in materials, manufacturing, and accumulated knowledge. Simply put, we know more and can do more these days than back in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

That said, retro styles are often a deliberate choice these days. Take a look at the Bruegelburg range from Lead Adventure, for example.

Setting aside more 'artistic' elements of styles, such as the way Tre Manor sculpts faces, the delicate precision of Tom Meier, The smooth curves and fluid poses of Kev White, or the funky, choppy style of Werner Klocke, the broader outlines of the 'style' of a miniature is driven by proportions. I think this is mostly what the OP was getting at.

In terms of proportions (and I am by no means an expert or anything), the big factors are:

Number of heads tall
Size of Head/Hands/Feet relative to the body
Length of legs

Variations in these proportions are what tend to make models look "heroic" or "true to scale." Though no 25mm-35mm table top games models are really true to scale.

Infinity models look different from Hasslefree models because the relative proportions of the models are different. Tre Manor's models tend to look 'small' because he uses proportions that are closer to reality than some other sculptors. The Heads/Hands/Feet of his models tend to be smaller than those of similarly-sized models produced by other sculptors.

Table top games models need to both look 'right' when viewed at essentially arm's length, and they need to be both physically stable and robust enough for transport/rough handling. They also need to be manufacturable, which significantly influences the 'style' of a model. There are different design demands for HIPS, PVC, Resin, and Pewter. We are now seeing a particular 'style' being developed for miniatures-heavy board games due to the demands of producing good-looking models in PVC.

Blood Rage is an excellent example of a style well-suited to the production process, and it took several product ranges to zero in on what looks good.

With all of that said, I think the market is moving in two parallel directions; one towards more realistic proportions and dynamic poses and the other a nostalgic retro-style, e.g. Wasteman and the Judge Dredd models by Warlord.

Some gamers are looking to recapture the the loose, funky, somewhat slapdash nostalgia of early miniatures games. Some are looking to see a more realistic style that both pushes the boundaries of technology and creates a sense of immersion through realism. Lots of gamers are looking for smaller, faster games with a lower model count, and they want more dynamism and detail in the few models they do put on the table. Similarly, 15mm, 6mm, and microarmor games are growing in popularity as gamers look to play mass battle games faster, more efficiently, and on a tighter budget.

At the same time, the board game market is growing more and more towards the table top miniatures games market. We are seeing, I think, market expansion in both areas and increasing crossover between the two. Take a look at the discussion of miniatures on sites like Boardgame Geek, for example. Cheaper Chinese PVC manufacturing is allowing board games to go from meeples and tokens into detailed scale models. Boxed games offer table top miniatures gamers a simple, swift-playing, and discretely packaged experience that does not demand building terrain, assembly, or even painting! These are all options that gamers can choose to indulge in, rather than being forced into. At the same time, it makes what are very, very close to table top miniatures games far more accessible to board gamers and the uninitiated in general.

On the whole, it is a very exciting time for table top games.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

MajorTom11 wrote:

Finally, as I have mentioned elsewhere, allowing 2 threads to be essentially unmoderated and to let a vocal minority of less than 10 (even less than 5 users) usurp the PR and tone of discussion on their home turf, to me, was a mistake. No matter what SAS do, if they ever act on their own behalf, even in the most minor ways, there is a sub-section of the audience here who will leap on them as greedy, fascist over-moderators who are crushing their personal freedoms. They can’t even say they disagree in polite debate without some people calling it moderation. That will not change in my opinion. But to me, you just have to accept that and act with integrity, but the keyword there is ACT. Just because you know some will cause a stink, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do as you would with anyone else, and doesn’t mean it’s a crime to say ‘hey, there is a line still, and if you cross it yes, we will still act, whether you think it is fair or not’. This isn’t to say moderate the hell out of everything, that would be suicide… it just means, have a little faith that enough people will see why you acted, and that so long as you make the boundaries clear and act with integrity, most will agree that your actions are justified. The mods are inherently restrained here, trust me, I know. If you get moderated, chances are you are being a huge douche lol, it is ridiculously rare that moderation happens in a form more than a warning, and it is almost impossible to get banned forever. Whatever people say about the amount of moderation on this site, on my kids, that is the truth of it. Dakka doesn’t ask for much recognition, but I think they should start asking people to recognize what actually happens in some situations, because SAS cannot easily afford to be burdened by the inability to act that Dakka imposes on itself when it comes time to act on its own behalf. The solution will be, ultimately, to encourage users not to white knight, but to simply vouch for the facts they see in front of them when some poison pill is trying to spin a fiction that hurts the company.

I don't think the Millennium's Edge threads were largely unmoderated as most of the argument/discussion was directly relevant to the thread (mostly I like or I don't like the minis), there was a lot of it and it was probably disruptive, BUT pretty much every GW thread has just as much of it, and MOD interventions in those are largely when things get personal between the posters, not just for hate/love of the models or rules or release schedule etc.

(although I agree the degree of nonsense they allow tends to be higher in the GW threads than others)

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

I asked yakface early on about criticism of ME, and as long as it was constructive and didn't get personal, he was happy for it to be on dakka. Constructive criticism of ME was never an issue.

As for the evolution of models, what do I care? I like chunky models. Hell, I'm still using stuff from the 1980s and 1990s

Obviously, everybody is different, but let's not pretend that ME wasn't as successful as it could have been because of aesthetics.

I didn't pledge because I didn't have the money at the time, not because I thought the models looked bad.

**weeble1000**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Obviously, everybody is different, but let's not pretend that ME wasn't as successful as it could have been because of aesthetics.

I don't think anyone needs to pretend about that. I think it was pretty obviously a contributing factor, and a not insignificant one at that.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

weeble1000 wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Obviously, everybody is different, but let's not pretend that ME wasn't as successful as it could have been because of aesthetics.

I don't think anyone needs to pretend about that. I think it was pretty obviously a contributing factor, and a not insignificant one at that.

I agree it was one of many factors, but I don't think it was THE factor. Like I said, my personal view wasn't influenced by the look of models, rather it was influenced by what money I had at the time.

There is no one size fits all list of reasons why ME worked or didn't work.

Personally, I think they did well, and seeing as they started from scratch, they should be proud of their efforts. I thought they were very slick and professional, and above all, honest in what they were trying to. If dakka belonged to me, and I was creating a game, I would have cracked down on dissent big time. My way or the highway. But that's just me

All things considered, In the future, I'll probably end up buying it.

**insaniak**

MajorTom11 wrote:
But now though, with the influx of restic and pre-production CG, it seems to me that elaborate monopose with very, very limited conversion possibilities is more what people want... They expect the detail to be there and not much to be done once they get the model. It's a different mentality. -

I wonder how much of that is due to the scope of the games that these models are designed for. The games we've seen crop up in recent years are almost exclusively small-scale skirmish games, where you have a much lower model count. And for me, that's what makes a difference on how I want the models presented.

I love a good characterful, elaborate model... so long as I only have to paint it once.

For one-off painting projects, or for games with a low model count where I don't have to double up, that's just fine. For bigger games, I've never liked having identically-posed, identically-detailed clones on the table, particularly when they're in the same unit. That's one of the things that I've always disliked about Warmachine (and I think Infinity has done a certain amount of it as well) - they make two or three troop models, and then double them up to make a full unit. For that application, I would much rather have slightly more generic models that I can pose and customise myself... and for that, multi-part, HIPS models are still a far better option than any of the current alternatives.

**MajorTom11**

In fairness, although there may be many reasons people did or did not buy, yours being a lack of funds at the time as an example, the aesthetics of 3 models out of the set drew the most vocal and consistent criticism, and only one was particularly focused on.

So although measuring main cause is not possible in a scientific way (without a big effort and a lot of participation from a significant portion of people who viewed the KS), it can certainly be said that for those with a dislike strong enough to be vocal, that was a major contributor. Even if the true reason for the majority of passes is something else, the only one that readily presents itself as addressable is that facet.

Though, certainly, the models have their fans as well.

In the end, if/when this product proceeds to the next step and the lines expand, the models that drew the fire will continue to be enveloped in a larger product, and will be revealed to be what they truly are in the end, a pretty minor part of the bigger whole.

With every new model they put out that is generally positively received, or at the least not identified as a 'mistake' (there will always be people not liking heroic, it is what it is), the problem of the one model becomes that much less a burden on the product line. This is a recoverable situation for Medge I believe, and one that, as hot a topic as it may be now to some, may prove to be a mere hiccup in the long term. Who knows?

PS yes I know some have problems with more than just the contractor, just sticking to what the bulk of critique has lain in my personal observation.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

MajorTom11 wrote:
In fairness, although there may be many reasons people did or did not buy, yours being a lack of funds at the time as an example, the aesthetics of 3 models out of the set drew the most vocal and consistent criticism, and only one was particularly focused on.

So although measuring main cause is not possible in a scientific way (without a big effort and a lot of participation from a significant portion of people who viewed the KS), it can certainly be said that for those with a dislike strong enough to be vocal, that was a major contributor. Even if the true reason for the majority of passes is something else, the only one that readily presents itself as addressable is that facet.

Though, certainly, the models have their fans as well.

In the end, if/when this product proceeds to the next step and the lines expand, the models that drew the fire will continue to be enveloped in a larger product, and will be revealed to be what they truly are in the end, a pretty minor part of the bigger whole.

With every new model they put out that is generally positively received, or at the least not identified as a 'mistake' (there will always be people not liking heroic, it is what it is), the problem of the one model becomes that much less a burden on the product line. This is a recoverable situation for Medge I believe, and one that, as hot a topic as it may be now to some, may prove to be a mere hiccup in the long term. Who knows?

PS yes I know some have problems with more than just the contractor, just sticking to what the bulk of critique has lain in my personal observation.

You said it yourself earlier - there was a vocal minority that were anti-ME from the beginning, and nothing was going to change their minds.

Yakface and Legoburner could have offered a million pounds/dollars and the cure for cancer with every boxset, and these people would still have shot it down in flames.

I think it was a shame that the debate wasn't more rules focused. I would love to have had more talk on gameplay mechanics, rather than aesthetics, but I recognise aesthetics was important for some people.

**Tydil**

For what it's worth, I didn't back because I couldn't make myself love the minis. I heard about the KS as soon as it started and thought "oh a dakkadakka ks, I'll pledge, this will be good." I was sold until I saw the minis. I don't know what it is that doesn't do it for me.

**pretre**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
You said it yourself earlier - there was a vocal minority that were anti-ME from the beginning, and nothing was going to change their minds.

Yakface and Legoburner could have offered a million pounds/dollars and the cure for cancer with every boxset, and these people would still have shot it down in flames.

This is what kept me out of participating in the MEdge threads for the most part and maybe wary of posting in this one.

**weeble1000**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I think it was a shame that the debate wasn't more rules focused. I would love to have had more talk on gameplay mechanics, rather than aesthetics, but I recognise aesthetics was important for some people.

My qualitative impression has been that in many cases 2D artwork leads into models, which leads into the rules, which leads back to the models.

People get excited about cool 2D artwork, whether that is a piece of concept art, an illustration, a teaser, etc. That and a little hype encourages them to take a look at the models. If someone finds the models exciting, they want to know about the rules. If the rules are passable, they provide an excuse/incentive to buy the model(s). If the rules are fun and engaging, it may lead to further model sales as the customer gets more invested in the game and/or draws others into the game.

Artwork, models, rules, models.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

weeble1000 wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I think it was a shame that the debate wasn't more rules focused. I would love to have had more talk on gameplay mechanics, rather than aesthetics, but I recognise aesthetics was important for some people.

My qualitative impression has been that in many cases 2D artwork leads into models, which leads into the rules, which leads back to the models.

People get excited about cool 2D artwork, whether that is a piece of concept art, an illustration, a teaser, etc. That and a little hype encourages them to take a look at the models. If someone finds the models exciting, they want to know about the rules. If the rules are passable, they provide an excuse/incentive to buy the model(s). If the rules are fun and engaging, it may lead to further model sales as the customer gets more invested in the game and/or draws others into the game.

Artwork, models, rules, models.

I think I'm more a practical person. For example, when I buy a car, how it looks is not my first priority. Does it start first time on a cold morning? Is it reliable? Will it break down and leave me in the middle of nowhere. That's the questions I ask. And I took a similar approach to this game. That doesn't mean to say I would have bought cardboard tokens to push around the trouble, but I was more interested in how it played and what the background was like. I'm pretty tall, my eyesight is not good, tiny models on a table three feet away...you can guess the rest. I won't notice the detail that much

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tydil wrote:
For what it's worth, I didn't back because I couldn't make myself love the minis. I heard about the KS as soon as it started and thought "oh a dakkadakka ks, I'll pledge, this will be good." I was sold until I saw the minis. I don't know what it is that doesn't do it for me.

Different strokes for different folks, as the saying goes.

**AlexHolker**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Yakface and Legoburner could have offered a million pounds/dollars and the cure for cancer with every boxset, and these people would still have shot it down in flames.

We both know you do not believe this is true, so don't insult everyone's intelligence by spouting this nonsense.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

AlexHolker wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Yakface and Legoburner could have offered a million pounds/dollars and the cure for cancer with every boxset, and these people would still have shot it down in flames.

We both know you do not believe this is true, so don't insult everyone's intelligence by spouting this nonsense.

How do you know what I'm thinking? IMO, for some people, Dakka + Game = bad. But that's my view. Take it or leave it.

**AlexHolker**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
AlexHolker wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Yakface and Legoburner could have offered a million pounds/dollars and the cure for cancer with every boxset, and these people would still have shot it down in flames.

We both know you do not believe this is true, so don't insult everyone's intelligence by spouting this nonsense.

How do you know what I'm thinking?

- Edited by insaniak. Please see Dakka's rule #1-

**PsychoticStorm**

I will add my perspective for what it is worth.

As a personal background, I prefer skirmish games with few models and in my opinion Infinity stands at the top of wargames, because it encapsulates what I find ideal as far as rules, fluff integration, models to table space ratio and models quality, I say the above, because there are only objective opinions and a critic should always state what his or her preferences are when criticizing a work, I also fancy myself as an amateur game designer (maybe also an amateur game developer) and a collector of wargame systems.

I actively avoided commenting on any ME threads because I felt (maybe incorrectly) SAS are not interested in hearing an opinion that is not flowing along and because of that I did not care to try and influence the opinion of readers and backers.

I will comment on ME here though to leave an active feedback for the benefit of SAS.

ME for me can be summarized in two words, Antiquated and Forgettable.

The first thing that caught my eye was the tokens and from that the suppression tokens that look exactly like the blast markers the epic 40k had, more than a decade ago, the other counters feel old too, been square doesn't help them too, then I noticed the models, I will have to echo some posters here, the models look outdated and not in line with current expectations for many of us.

It actually bring in the question of rally who is supposed this to be aimed for? hardcore GW players wan't nothing of non GW sanctioned models and rules, GW veterans usually stick tot he rules (so having a better rule system is not appealing) but migrate to better quality models such as FW or victorias and many other who cater that market (and ME are not catering this) people who left GW have already moved to better rules system (the rules can be potentially interesting here) and more natural looking models (models are heroic), can I assume the game may be catering to people leaving GW? to be more in their comfort zone yet not so similar tot he thing it drew them away? I am not sure this market share is that big, people leave GW, but most who leave are leaving the platoon to company size and heroic scale too.

Models are a huge influence and whoever says otherwise stands against game designers even for boardgames that state how important miniatures are ME look outdated, both as design choices and as design execution, karist legs are 3 parts when Alesio's terminator strives to limit the parts to as few as two for the whole model, if I need 30-50 of them fr a "proper game" I am not going to spend time gluing two legs and a pelvis for each... I must also point out that the quality or better design scope varies tremendously the small drones look like models, the big robot looks like a toy.

Ultimately I did not pledge, I usually pledge for at least a rulebook, but found 50$ for a physical rulebook (plus a bunch of unneeded stuff) too much.

I feel, the timing was bad (should have started after salute driving hype) the decision to have models ready without customers feedback and in contrast to current trends a bad decision (really browsing on Dakka gives big clues on what the trend is, what is praised, what is not) and that much energy was wasted on things not needed, I do not care for a novel or more, or the details of the setting, models and rules will make it walk, fluff will retain the players its not high priority nor something backers deeply care for, sure you might thing its clever and evocative and for all accounts it might be, but you are crowdfunding a wargame, not a few novels.

I gave my honest feedback, feel free to debate or ignore it, despite what I said and how negative it may sound I wish SAS success, I want more game companies especially in the sci fi genre, not less.

**insaniak**

PsychoticStorm wrote:
The first thing that caught my eye was the tokens and from that the suppression tokens that look exactly like the blast markers the epic 40k had, more than a decade ago, the other counters feel old too,...

Honest question - What form of counters would feel more 'modern' to you?

...models and rules will make it walk, fluff will retain the players its not high priority nor something backers deeply care for,...

I suspect that this is something that will get a wide variety of opinions. IMO, models, rules and fluff all form the core 'backbone' of a game. How important each of those aspects are will vary immensely from player to player... but for me, the fluff has always been an integral part of any game that I have played. Having a setting that is immersive and that I enjoy, that allows me to then go and play games in that world... that's a massive part of the 'magic' of wargaming for me.

So having so much background alsready fleshed out for MEdge is one of the things that will get players who feel the same way I do about the importance of background material to check it out...

**Tannhauser42**

MajorTom11 wrote:

Do you guys agree with that? Do you find demand for 'conversion friendly' minis has drastically fallen compared to single pose demand? Do models like infinity stuff (which I love the look of), get converted much? I'm not talking about glueing a new gun on, talking like fairly involved converting.

Just curious what the take on that is -

I think the "hobby" aspect of wargaming is fading. For many people, given the choice of spending extra time converting and painting or spending that same time actually playing the game, playing the game will usually win out every time. Yes, the hobbyists do exist, but I think the majority of people spend their money on these games to actually play them. Twenty years ago I would have thought nothing of spending hours each night assembling and painting my stuff. Now, I find it a chore to assemble stuff, and given the choice of painting or playing more Witcher 3, well, guess which of those two I will be doing about 15 minutes from now (hint: it involves monster slaying).

In some ways, I blame the Internet for this. Time spent today checking email, surfing the web, online shopping, talking about my hobbies here on Dakka and other social media, is time I used to spend on my hobbies.

So, yes, I think the convenience of models that have fewer parts is a big factor these days.

**Vertrucio**

Probably 3D (stand up) acrylic tokens for blast/suppression.

You know, they probably could included a stretch goal and add-on extra for well designed acrylic tokens, especially so since the rules make significant use of them.

**PsychoticStorm**

Rounded or round probably or going in clear acrylic would work best, the idea pioneered by GW (yes they do have good ideas) to make counters look like holographic displays a commander would see on an "RTS environment" are the most modern looking, the X shaped blast markers used for pinning are the biggest offenders though, the feel as old as epic 40k that used them, for roughly the same effect.

Fluff is not the driving motivator for the majority, it is the retainer for the majority, from my experience, people who want rules deeply care for the rules, but do not care much or at all for the models or the fluff, they want the rules to adapt them for their own use usually, these are the people who usually buy rules only wargames from companies that publish their own rues and nothing else, such as two fat lardies, ME is not targeted to this group, from the other two groups models first and fluff first, the models first is the biggest of the two by orders of magnitude so models will attract customers more than fluff, don't get it wrong, I do not say fluff should be non existent, I say more energy was spend on fluff than it was needed for a starting wargame.

**insaniak**

PsychoticStorm wrote:
Rounded or round probably or going in clear acrylic would work best,...

Fair enough. I don't see anything inherently more 'modern' about round tokens (I had games in the '80s with round tokens) or acrylic, myself. And I would personally prefer full colour card tokens to acrylic most of the time, as it looks prettier unless the acrylic is really detailed... which adds considerable expense due to the cost of cutting that much detail in. So pretty acrylic tokens are fine as an add-on, but a little impractical for a starter set.

Fluff is not the driving motivator for the majority, it is the retainer for the majority, from my experience, people who want rules deeply care for the rules, but do not care much or at all for the models or the fluff, they want the rules to adapt them for their own use usually, these are the people who usually buy rules only wargames from companies that publish their own rues and nothing else, such as two fat lardies, ME is not targeted to this group, from the other two groups models first and fluff first, the models first is the biggest of the two by orders of magnitude so models will attract customers more than fluff, don't get it wrong, I do not say fluff should be non existent, I say more energy was spend on fluff than it was needed for a starting wargame.

I would actually be curious to see research on exactly where the breakdown is there... as I said, opinions definitely vary, and I certainly wouldn't claim my opinion to be the main one without any sort of figures to back it up (it's quite possible that you're correct, and I'm a distinct minority)... but there are plenty of games out there that have solid rules and/or models that I haven't bothered to play simply because I wasn't interested in the setting. Without an interesting setting to give me a reason to care, they're just pretty models... in which case I might buy some to paint, but won't bother wading through a rulebook. Obviously, your mileage varies

**Jerram**

Thanks buzz and lego for the commentary.

For background I backed at 90.

On the aesthetics discussion, when I first saw the troops my thought were "those contractors are bleh but the Karist look pretty sweet, maybe I'll add on some more of those." However once I saw the drones I appreciated the way the Epirans had a coherent aesthetic and fell in love with the drones, so much so that I would have added more on if they had been available. Lack of add ons probably had a significant impact on the end funding level.

Also its interesting you use relic knights and KOW, can anyone honestly say that if they had shown pictures of production models during the KS there would not have been a significant hit in the final funding for those projects ?