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 dusara217 wrote:

 Chongara wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:


Living in a low crime area, having good locks and double glazing will do far more to keep you safe than any gun, dog or alarm system.
.

It'll do more to keep you safe, but will do a lot less to soothe your ego by letting you engage in macho hero fantasies where you get to use violence to feel powerful and reassured and less like an unimportant, short-lived and quickly forgotten participant in the human story.

I don't think that anybody, anywhere, feels that way.

Do you mean nobody has macho power fantasies, or nobody sees themselves as just a regular guy?

 dusara217 wrote:

 Chongara wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
Living in a low crime area, having good locks and double glazing will do far more to keep you safe than any gun, dog or alarm system.

It'll do more to keep you safe, but will do a lot less to soothe your ego by letting you engage in macho hero fantasies where you get to use violence to feel powerful and reassured and less like an unimportant, short-lived and quickly forgotten participant in the human story.

I don't think that anybody, anywhere, feels that way.

I believe that was in reference to stuff like this:

 Haight wrote:
Both I and my dog will be assuming room temperature before anyone gets that far with my family. I'll gladly be in jail for filling a couple of donkey-caves full of extra orifices before they do that my girl and kiddo.

Vowing to protect your family is hardly a hero fantasy. A hero fantasy would be protecting your neighbor from a break in.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Ouze wrote:
But you must admit, part of the reason you wouldn't is because it's impractical and expensive to do so, right?

Well, I would say the main thing preventing me from building an anti-meteorite shield is that, to my knowledge, no such technology curretnly exists. Also, I think my HOA would send me a strongly worded letter if I did..

HOA's, man. They ruin everything.

In my case a dog worked out well because I love dogs and I have someone who is generally home when I'm not to walk her, but sure, I agree that they're not for everyone either.

And yes I totally agree with both of you guys about the hero fantasy aspect. Guns definitely are a recurring prop for people suffering from little man disease. Every time I delve even a little bit into the gun community (like when I'm researching something like how headspacing works, and then start wandering around the forums) I'm sort of grossed out by it. There is definitely a sick streak in there; you rarely have to go far to find men who are very angry.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Vowing to protect your family is hardly a hero fantasy. A hero fantasy would be protecting your neighbor from a break in.

No, there's a big difference in saying, "If I ever had to, I would do what it takes to protect my family," and, "I'll gladly be in jail for filling a couple of donkey-caves full of extra orifices before they do that my 'girl' and kiddo." One is humbly coming to terms with being prepared to do something terrible (which I don't think even needs to be said) and the other is macho chest-thumping.

Ouze wrote:
HOA's, man. They ruin everything.

Indeed.

I deliberately piss mine off just so I can feel like a rebel. I guess it's all that punk rock I listened too before I became a suburban dork.

And yes I totally agree with both of you guys about the hero fantasy aspect. Guns definitely are a recurring prop for people suffering from little man disease. Every time I delve even a little bit into the gun community (like when I'm researching something like how headspacing works, and then start wandering around the forums) I'm sort of grossed out by it. There is definitely a sick streak in there; you rarely have to go far to find men who are very angry.

Exactly. There is no denying that lots of guys treat their guns as penis extensions. And of course, on the flip side, lots of guys don't.

I enjoy my firearms as a hobby but I understand, that even though there is a statistically insignificant chance of it occurring, I might need one of those firearms to defend myself and/or family. I don't plan for it nor expect it and I especially don't brag about my willingness to do it.

I've always said that enjoying guns is something about me, not something I'm about.

In Ireland, we have no legalised home defense, so its a baseball bat for us - or a kitchen knife.

However I'd endorse 100% some form of home defense weapon like you guys do. Seen too many friends and family traumatised by breakins by junkies and scumbags. I had a friend held literal hostage by a junkie with a needle to her throat.

I dont believe the US gun culture is right whatsoever but then Im a hypocrit here so?
How far can you go with home defense? ireland has this wishy-washy bull that you cannot.

And we built castles.......


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry peeps, Im not having a pop at the US. I think it has alot right and home defense is one

I just think otherwise about overall gun ownership, not sure that makes sense

 Ratius wrote:
How far can you go with home defense? ireland has this wishy-washy bull that you cannot.

It varies wildly by jurisdiction here. Generally speaking, there are 2 categories: duty-to-retreat, and castle doctrine. In duty-to-retreat states, you generally must first try to escape from a dangerous situation; and if you cannot, you can use reasonable force to protect yourself or someone else from imminent danger of death or bodily harm.

In castle doctrine states, there is no duty to try to escape; if you are in your home you can use force with the same criteria above: reasonable force to protect yourself or someone else from imminent danger of death or bodily harm.

Those are extremely general. For example, in Texas you can actually use deadly force to protect not only your property (this is unusual), but someone else's property (!). In others, the castle doctrine is extended - sometimes your home, business, and vehicle, and sometimes "any place you have a lawful right to be - these are considered "stand your ground" laws and are usually quite misunderstood.

And to clarify, castle doctrine or stand your ground isn't a free pass to just murder someone. You can't generally just shoot someone for being on your property, you can't execute someone who is already wounded and is no longer a threat, and so on. Even on the most justified shoot, you're looking at am investigation and possibly civil and criminal litigation and charges.

As mentioned earlier, a dog would be my first choice. If someone isn't scared off by a German Shepherd barking at them, then they'll have to feel it's bite. If they get through that, there's always the pistol/shotgun I have to help scare them off. Of course, warning signs will be added in as a deterrent. I don't want to have to clean blood out of my house

Graat post ouze. Granted on all points.

Just over here Ive seen and heard situations where.....lets just say.... I and maybe you dont get the option to be "reasonable" due to law based off jurasdictions and ideas that are defunct :(

Junkie in your house trying to rape a friend, you dknt know his intentions.

Give me that usa 9mm first pleae, even if I can wound him....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway Im playing cowboy here, but its infuriating seeing things like that here without remit :(

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Guns are never the answer...

I must agree. Too big, expensive to feed. Crew is expensive too.
Stick with small arms........

I don't know. Rolling a Pak. 40 down a hall to defend against home intruders would certainly leave an impression on them.

A dog, good locks and a security system for me. Maybe a 9mm as an absolute last resort if none of the other measures has successfully deterred them. I'd rather leave and call the cops first over risking my neck/possible jail time/law suit over a flat screen and a Horus Heresy army.

Well. Maybe the Horus Heresy army. That stuff isn't cheap, y'know.

Well, guns are legal here, but shootings will always end in criminal proceedings, self-defence or not. Even the police get investigated when ballistics discharge occurs.

In my area, we have had a few incidents occur, including an execution death up the road. In an absolute emergency - Life and death. I would say my POV would be knives and suchlike would be the best option. Turrets and booby traps are illegal, and would be treated as such.

Best method is deterrance. The sound of a pump-action, The look of someone wielding a KABAR or a sword. Even down to my mum chasing an intruder out of the house with a rolling pin.

Gates and walls do nothing. They point out a potential target. The best defence, is a good alarm system, and a medium or large dog, preferably well-trained.

 Chongara wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 Chongara wrote:
Given the rate of burglary is pretty low, even lower those that would happen when the owners are home, lower still those that would happen in the kind areas that people who can afford to support an internet-and-miniatures habit would live I'm just not worried about it. It doesn't register on my list of threats.

That said an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Sturdy locks and a safe neighborhood are the way to go, though I probably couldn't be bothered with the former in the latter. At any rate I'm not particularly interested in violence, even less so using it to escalate it with an intruder who more than likely just wants to make off with my TV. The TV covered by my homeowners/renters insurance.

Like the Trenched-coated child abductor at the playground, pill-tampering factory worker, and devious person slipping razor blades into Halloween candy the spontaneous murder/rapist who kicks in the door of your suburban home is far more common in fiction than reality. I don't really have a plan for defending myself from escaped zoo animals either, but hey maybe that'll bite me in the ass someday.

And yet things like the Petit family murders happen.

Right and a fair number of people make money gambling. Yet somehow sound finical planning includes whole-market index funds, but not scratch tickets and trips to Vegas. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's prudent, productive or rational to plan for. One only has so much time, mental energy and resources to work with and all of them are better spent on things that aren't remote edge cases.

However much time an energy you spend security and/or weapons to protect your family from The Strangers or those two dudes from the beginning of Se7en, you could probably have better net increase in overall safety and welfare for your family allocating to almost anything else.

We respectfully disagree then. I find your analogy drawn between defense / firearms and retirement planning / gambling silly, but we clearly don't agree with one another on this topic.


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 CptJake wrote:
I think you'll find the best 'system' is actually a 'system of systems' which has deterrent and reaction capabilities and is coupled with a security conscious mindset of the occupants of the residence.

Agreed! That's why i have the alarms, dog, cameras , firearm, etc. AND live in a nice quiet suburban neighborhood on a deadend road. My goal is not to make my house impregnable : it's to make it much more unappealing than other targets.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Haight wrote:
And yet things like the Petit family murders happen.

And meteorites have been known to fall from the sky, punch through cars and hit people, but I'm not building a protective dome over my house.

Building an anti-asteroid dome is in absolutely no way comparable to buying and learning to use a couple of pistols as a part of a home security network.



For all those throwing stones at my notions of security: do whatever you like, i'll secure my homestead how i see fit, thanks.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Rolling a Pak. 40 down a hall to defend against home intruders would certainly leave an impression on them.

Having actually moved a Pak 40, I highly advise having either a 4 man team, a horse, or a tractor. Honestly, for practical reasons, I'd just mount it on top of a stair case or something in an ambush position. Moving that thing is a real pain in the ass

I'm not clear how the OP defines 'home invasion'.

In the event of an individual breaking into your home with the earnest intent to kill or injure you, then obviously a lethal weapons such as a shotgun or pistol would be the best means of protecting yourself.

If we're instead talking about the more common occurrence of burglary, the intent of someone to steal your property undetected, then an alarm (and a loud one at that) would do you far more good than a weapon that the thief has no knowledge about.

The Russian mafia.
Get in with them and no one will ever break into your house.
Any other fearsome crime syndicate will also do.

However, if you don't have a local mob boss to befriend, you could always get a pack of Caucasian Ovcharkas. That should work just as well, if you don't mind clearing up the mess.

 Haight wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Haight wrote:
And yet things like the Petit family murders happen.

And meteorites have been known to fall from the sky, punch through cars and hit people, but I'm not building a protective dome over my house.

Building an anti-asteroid dome is in absolutely no way comparable to buying and learning to use a couple of pistols as a part of a home security network.

For all those throwing stones at my notions of security: do whatever you like, i'll secure my homestead how i see fit, thanks.

Building an anti-meteorite (asteroids are in space!) dome over your house is comparable to building an elaborate home security system for one reason: rationality. Despite what you think, setting up a home defense network to defend against a violent home invader is as irrational as building a dome to protect against a meteorite strike.

There is no need to get defensive. I'm not throwing stones at you; humans are irrational beings and we all are irrational about something (spiders, snakes, rare diseases, etc.). As a gun owner myself, I'm certainly not saying that gun ownership is bad thing. I am definitely not saying that you can't 'defend' your home however you see fit. Just because I personally see it as irrational doesn't mean I fault you for it.

I have a baseball bat in my closet, that's it.

Then again, I live on the 9th floor and it requires 3 different keys to even get to my door. If someone get's that far, without getting spotted by all the camera's around, and without alerting the 50 dogs that live in the building the guy has earned it.

And once he's in, he will either get stared to death by my cats or snuggled to death by my English Stafford. (though if he actually acts aggressively, dog will nail him)