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Let's say you have a SM Tac Squad with a MissileLauncher and 9 Bolters.

IF what you said was true, then after you hit 2 units with the Missile, you could shoot your bolters freely at 2 different units (since you already would have targeted both).
And thats just wrong.
You declare 1 target unit and then resolve each weapon type one after another against that unit.

Using the term cop out could be interpreted as flame baiting.

Die toten hosen,
If that sentence was removed then the only timing left for when Jink can be declared would be the moment it is targeted, because the line before it contains the following: is selected as a target for a shooting attack. The inclusion of another sentence informing us the decision must be made before To Hit rolls are taken grants permission for the 'defending player' to hold back on their decision to Jink or not to Jink. When used in conjunction with other Rules that modify the Shooting Sequence, it can create some very unusual situations. Best to avoid the entire mess by simply deleting the offending, and 100% useless, sentence....

Co0n wrote:
Let's say you have a SM Tac Squad with a MissileLauncher and 9 Bolters.

IF what you said was true, then after you hit 2 units with the Missile, you could shoot your bolters freely at 2 different units (since you already would have targeted both).
And thats just wrong.

You declare 1 target unit and then resolve each weapon type one after another against that unit.

Yes and no. Both the rules for selecting and firing with weapons and the rules for hits generated by Blast weapons use the exact phrase of 'target unit', which is the problem. Following the Blast weapon rules then we have the potential to have multiple target units.

It seems to me the intention is that all models in a unit must fire at the declared target (per choosing a target in the shooting rules) and that this should possibly be the same single target when deciding whether a 'secondary target' is (not) allowed to Jink if also hit by a Blast weapon's marker. But it's also written clearly in the rules that units hit by the marker take a number of hits, and that said hits are allocated to the target unit as normal.

Conundrum!

JinxDragon wrote:
Die toten hosen,
If that sentence was removed then the only timing left for when Jink can be declared would be the moment it is targeted, because the line before it contains the following: is selected as a target for a shooting attack. The inclusion of another sentence informing us the decision must be made before To Hit rolls are taken grants permission for the 'defending player' to hold back on their decision to Jink or not to Jink. When used in conjunction with other Rules that modify the Shooting Sequence, it can create some very unusual situations. Best to avoid the entire mess by simply deleting the offending, and 100% useless, sentence....

when you are targeted is the only time you can declare jink. period. i fail to see how removing the offending statement changes that.

Mr. Shrine,
Or are restricted to wounding only one Unit, that targeted, even if multiple are hit.
Either way, the word 'targeted' should never be there because it causes problems.

Die Toten Hosen,
Why have a sentence informing us the decision must be made before To Hit rolls?
What exactly does this sentence actually do?

JinxDragon wrote:
Mr. Shrine,
Or are restricted to wounding only one Unit, that targeted, even if multiple are hit.
Either way, the word 'targeted' should never be there because it causes problems.

It is actually funnier than that as targetted unit does effect anything until wound allocation. So let say I target a Wraithknight with my Plasna Cannon and scatter and hit 4 Eldar Guardians 2 of ky own Marines I roll to wound those guardians and marines and roll all 2+ so wound with all the hits, however when allocating those wounds I must allocate them to the nearest model in the target unit. Thus the Wraithknight takes 6 Ap2 wounds...

RAW, Only one target (The declared unit) can jink.


However, it is worth noting that many large events rule that any unit under the intial blast template, before scatter, is considered targeted for the purpose of jinking/flinkerjump, etc.

Yes, same as many large events present house rules for no apparent reason.

DOnt want to be hit by a blast with no chance to jink? Dont be too close to units that cannot jink, etc.

What exactly does this sentence actually do?

I think the whole point of the sentence is to emphasize that you can't wait to see the results of the To Hit rolls to make your decision.

To avoid the "Since you rolled your dice and none of the attacks hit then I guess I am not jinking." type of situation.

Some players don't necessarily play a lot of Jinking armies so they move through the process fairly quickly and go from Choosing a target, picking a weapon and rolling in a short amount of time. As a White Scar player I make it my best effort now to to try and stop people once I see them pick up dice to verify they are not shooting AP 3 or better weapons before they do anything so I can get the jink out of the way without knowing the results.

So with Blast templates, you have to declare the jink before you know the results of how many of those are actually hit by the marker, so before you roll scatter. You can't change your mind once it scatters onto a completely different unit and make that unit jink instead.

Lusiphur,
Please allow die toten hosen to answer the question, as they are the one arguing that you can only choose to Jinx during Step 2.
I want to know what they believes a sentence telling the decision has to be made before the To Hit process actually means.

JinxDragon wrote:
Lusiphur,
Please allow die toten hosen to answer the question, as they are the one arguing that you can only choose to Jinx during Step 2.
I want to know what they believes a sentence telling the decision has to be made before the To Hit process actually means.

The sentence prevents waiting to make the decision to jink till after your opponent makes their to hit rolls.

And you can only declare jink once you have been selected as the target of a shooting attack, i fail to see how that is contentious.

So we have a rule preventing us from waiting to make the decision till Step 4...
So what stops me from waiting till Step 3 to make the decision?

JinxDragon wrote:
So we have a rule preventing us from waiting to make the decision till Step 4...
So what stops me from waiting till Step 3 to make the decision?

the rules do.

So the sentence telling us The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made , which occurs at Step 4, means we have to make the decision before step 3?
You could simply accept that this sentence is a problem, it should never exist within the Jink Special Rule as it is pointless at best and capable of creating loopholes at worse....

Lol so true my friend - so true.

Jinx, how does it create a loophole?

Do we agree that the declaration to Jink must be made at some point between being declared as a target and rolling To Hit (Steps 2 and 4 of the shooting sequence)?

Do we agree that the placing of a blast marker and rolling for scatter happens at step 4 (instead of rolling To Hit)?

HappyJew,
I had it as an open ended possibility, Rule interactions being what they are something granting permission to wait till just before the To Hit Rolls could be problematic in a hypothetical situation... then we remembered this little line:
When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit.
- Blast Special Rule

Even if it occurs at Step 4, it is not a To Hit roll because Blast tells us it is done instead of To Hit after specifically stating this is not a To Hit roll.
Several arguments in other threads are also based on the concept that it is not a To Hit roll, such as those dealing with To Hit of 1.

Blast being a to hit or not doesnt factor in.

The only time a unit may declare jink is when they are a declared target.

"Before and to hit rolls..." is just a clarifier.

die toten hosen wrote:
Blast being a to hit or not doesnt factor in.

The only time a unit may declare jink is when they are a declared target.

"Before and to hit rolls..." is just a clarifier.

Agreed. Jinx's point is that it's a pointless one that has caused many people in this forum to misunderstand, or try to loophole their way into declaring after the blast has scattered. (it has happened more than once)