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 Dozer Blades wrote:
Choosing a target could be more than one. Some are advocating for what is basically a loop hole.

You are loop holing on yourself, we are showing you the door with the EXIT sign on it, yet you keep turning on the same spot.

One thing is "Target" metagame.
Other thing is "Target" ingame.

Jink is only Allowed when being the target of a Shooting Attack ingame.
And you nominate only 1 unit as target, if you are firing with a unit with multiple weapons, all weapons must be fired to that unit. Firing a Blast Weapon you select one model in the target unit an centre the blast there. Then there is Only one target unit, the one that has the model on wich the blast is centered. So, only that unit can jink. Wanting to hit another unit, and finally hitting another unit are different things.

Well that is very clear.

YEs, the rule is absolutely and utterly explicit

You can only target one unit, unless told otherwise

Please, show us wher eyou are told otherwise. Page and graph, as per the tenets.

Dozer, why are you having so much trouble with this? The word "targeting" is explicitly defined in the rules. In colloquial English, the word could mean "anything under the blast template", but for the purpose of the game, it means the single, selected unit.

Why do you keep arguing otherwise?

All CA needed to do was post the full rules for targeting. I said up front I don't have my rule book with me right now.

There is some ambiguity thanks the the blast rules themselves.

The last time we had this discussion it was pointed out that the blast rules specifically state that wounds can only be allocated to the closest model in the TARGET unit.

i forget the exact wording and dont have my book, but feel free to check for yourselves

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I showed how a player can purposely target more than one unit.

You showed how a player can purposefully HIT more than one unit with a blast weapon. You have yet to show any permission to TARGET more than one unit with a shooting attack. Hitting and targeting are not the same thing. How many units you hit isn't relevant to a discussion about targeting.

Yeah I know. Wear the carpet out.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I showed how a player can purposely target more than one unit.

All you did was show that it is in fact possible to hit multiple units when using a template styled weapon. This doesn't give the same abilities that targetting does

True that.

 jokerkd wrote:
There is some ambiguity thanks the the blast rules themselves.

The last time we had this discussion it was pointed out that the blast rules specifically state that wounds can only be allocated to the closest model in the TARGET unit.

i forget the exact wording and dont have my book, but feel free to check for yourselves

"(...) Once the final position of the blast marker has been determined, take a good look at it from above – each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer’s line of sight. (...)
- Blast
We know that every unit under template is hit.

Next sentence in Blast rules:
"(...)Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal. Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit.(...)"
[/i]- Blast
Since we know that multiple units are hit, the phrase "target unit" must mean that every one unit that has been hit.

 danyboy wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
There is some ambiguity thanks the the blast rules themselves.

The last time we had this discussion it was pointed out that the blast rules specifically state that wounds can only be allocated to the closest model in the TARGET unit.

i forget the exact wording and dont have my book, but feel free to check for yourselves

"(...) Once the final position of the blast marker has been determined, take a good look at it from above – each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer’s line of sight. (...)
- Blast
We know that every unit under template is hit.

Next sentence in Blast rules:
"(...)Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal. Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit.(...)"
[/i]- Blast
Since we know that multiple units are hit, the phrase "target unit" must mean that every one unit that has been hit.

Correct, though by this reading we should also allow jink when the blast marker scatters on you.
That sentence implies that being hit makes your unit a target, so there is no difference if you were under that blast marker from the start or just had it scatter on you.

Spoletta wrote:
Correct, though by this reading we should also allow jink when the blast marker scatters on you.
That sentence implies that being hit makes your unit a target, so there is no difference if you were under that blast marker from the start or just had it scatter on you.

Not necessary. Not when blast non-intentionally scatters:
"(...)The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made.(...)"
- Jink
You have to declare Jink before roll to hit is made.
We already rolled to hit with blast (which scattered).
So it is too late to declare Jink.

Oh man i love this particular dead horse because there is actually no legitimate argument to be made for nontargeted units to jink a scattered blast. The only exception is dark angels biket formation having counts as jinking right off.

Jink can only be declared when targeted by the player prior to selecting a weapon to shoot with, then resolving. No undeclared target can jink a blast. The blast does not declare a target, the player does. The blast just shows what was hit and where to allocate wounds.

It is my opinion that this issue is due to the Jink Special Rule having a 'time period' instead of a specific point on the time line.
The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made should be removed completely from the Rule, it functions just fine without this sentence and clearly is just confusing some people.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So for the example I gave you would say the player does or does not want to hit both units ?

Desire is irrelevant. You are targeting a specific unit, the one whose model your template is initially centered over, and in a genius move you have also happened to catch another unit under the template at the same time(or lucky enough to have it drift onto another unit).

You have not targeted the second unit you happened to catch. This is why blasts can scatter onto friendly units, even though you are forbidden from targeting friendly units, the scattering blast doesn't target anything other than what it initially was centered on.

JinxDragon wrote:
It is my opinion that this issue is due to the Jink Special Rule having a 'time period' instead of a specific point on the time line.
The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made should be removed completely from the Rule, it functions just fine without this sentence and clearly is just confusing some people.

How?
The rule has a specific point when it has to be declared, there is no ambiguity in that.

Pick target
Target declares jink
Roll dice

Of all the rules to be debated this one is amazingly straight forward

There is 'select weapon' between

 danyboy wrote:
There is 'select weapon' between

Eh, my point still stands.

 danyboy wrote:
Not necessary. Not when blast non-intentionally scatters:
"(...)The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made.(...)"
- Jink
You have to declare Jink before roll to hit is made.
We already rolled to hit with blast (which scattered).
So it is too late to declare Jink.

Blast weapons do not roll to hit.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 danyboy wrote:
Not necessary. Not when blast non-intentionally scatters:
"(...)The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made.(...)"
- Jink
You have to declare Jink before roll to hit is made.
We already rolled to hit with blast (which scattered).
So it is too late to declare Jink.

Blast weapons do not roll to hit.

True, but Jinking is declared after you are targeted. Which is well before the scatter die is rolled or the template is placed.

 Grey Templar wrote:
True, but Jinking is declared after you are targeted. Which is well before the scatter die is rolled or the template is placed.

Incorrect. Jink may be declared when a unit is targeted.

If you accept that being hit by a Blast weapon counts as the unit being targeted (per the 'target unit' wording of the Blast weapon rules) then necessarily they may Jink.

Then do you also accept that a scattering blast can never hit a friendly unit? Because you are expressly forbidden from targeting friendly models with attacks.

Die toten hosen,
The fact there is another step between 2 and 4 creates a 'range' on the timeline, not a single 'point,' and given that we have people trying to create loopholes because of this fact... I wouldn't say that sentence is at all insignificant. This single sentence creating this Range, The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made, really needs to be stripped from the Rule in order to ensure no loopholes can be created. Its inclusion leaves open the possibility that some other Rule interaction may modify the shooting sequence, or simply inject itself into Step 3 of the process somehow, and increase this range in such a way that it can be abused.

To highlight one such possible hijacking of the sequence, consider the following line and try to fathom how it interacts with the 'before To Hit rolls have been made' requirement:
When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit.
- Blast Special Rule

Ninja'ed, but the fact others can see this problem easily highlights why the range needs to be shrunk to a specific point!

 Grey Templar wrote:
Then do you also accept that a scattering blast can never hit a friendly unit? Because you are expressly forbidden from targeting friendly models with attacks.

Do you have the exact rules quote for this? When shooting we are told to target an enemy unit, and we are told we may not place the marker so friendly models are under it, but I'm not sure that extends to a blanket statement of never being able to target friendly units (unintentionally).

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Then do you also accept that a scattering blast can never hit a friendly unit? Because you are expressly forbidden from targeting friendly models with attacks.

Do you have the exact rules quote for this? When shooting we are told to target an enemy unit, and we are told we may not place the marker so friendly models are under it, but I'm not sure that extends to a blanket statement of never being able to target friendly units (unintentionally).

That's it. You are blanket told you cannot target your own units with attacks/place the template over them. If you accept template over unit = jink, then you also have to accept that blasts cannot scatter onto your own units, and if they do, you are cheating and your opponent automatically wins.

greytalon666 wrote:
That's it. You are blanket told you cannot target your own units with attacks/place the template over them. If you accept template over unit = jink, then you also have to accept that blasts cannot scatter onto your own units, and if they do, you are cheating and your opponent automatically wins.

Except that the rules for Blast weapons go on to tell you that in the case of scattering it is acceptable for your own units to be hit and wounded by your own scattering Blast weapon. So yeah, nah.

Targeting and Placement of a marker are two different things, so how does 'not being able to place the marker over a friendly Model' equal 'not being able to Target a friendly Unit?'

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So for the example I gave you would say the player does or does not want to hit both units ?

Desire is irrelevant. You are targeting a specific unit, the one whose model your template is initially centered over, and in a genius move you have also happened to catch another unit under the template at the same time(or lucky enough to have it drift onto another unit).

You have not targeted the second unit you happened to catch. This is why blasts can scatter onto friendly units, even though you are forbidden from targeting friendly units, the scattering blast doesn't target anything other than what it initially was centered on.

In a word - no .

I can give you an example... it used to be all ranged weapons in a unit had the same range as whichever weapon had the greatest... which was resolved via wound pools.

So it could clearly be an oversight and corrected in the next edition.

JinxDragon wrote:
Die toten hosen,
The fact there is another step between 2 and 4 creates a 'range' on the timeline, not a single 'point,' and given that we have people trying to create loopholes because of this fact... I wouldn't say that sentence is at all insignificant. This single sentence creating this Range, The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made, really needs to be stripped from the Rule in order to ensure no loopholes can be created. Its inclusion leaves open the possibility that some other Rule interaction may modify the shooting sequence, or simply inject itself into Step 3 of the process somehow, and increase this range in such a way that it can be abused.

To highlight one such possible hijacking of the sequence, consider the following line and try to fathom how it interacts with the 'before To Hit rolls have been made' requirement:
When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit.
- Blast Special Rule

Ninja'ed, but the fact others can see this problem easily highlights why the range needs to be shrunk to a specific point!

Having there be a specific point when jink has to be declared is important.
"before any to hit rolls are made" is pretty much the best place to put "declaring jink".
personally i fail to see how blasts "not rolling to hit" is relevant. what matters is that a target is declared and the target declares jink. if you are not the declared target, you cannot jink.

I also see "blasts not rolling to hit" as a major copout response to "loopholing" jink.

for the record, as these debates can get heated i would like to declare my tone as level headed and hopefully not aggressive.