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 Jancoran wrote:

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Now that Tau are on the same level as other rated B and A factions, when will C and D rated factions get the same level of power as factions like Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Marines, etc. I'm curious, I want to start my 2nd army towards the start of next year. So far I'm leaning towards Tau,
anyone want to persuade me to field a different faction? I'm open to all opinions.

Astra Militarum have been good ever since I've known about them. they have an answer for all unit types nd toughness's. They compete in every phase. They are bulky, and opponents enjoy playing them because when the opponents shoot, things die a lot which on some human level makes them more "fun to play against", kinda like orks. So if Tau Empire (which has been my favorite faction) isnt your thing, Astra Militarum are pretty fun and painting them is pretty fun to if you like painting (I dont, yet i enjoyed painting my IG).

That's food for thought.

Thanks, I'll definitely look into that.

Be warned, a lot of the IG players here always say they're incredibly weak.

 hanshotfirst wrote:
why do all threads related to balance devolve into csm players whining (not saying they dont have any reason, just why dont you guys make a thread that is titled "whine about your csm!")

Let's put it this way: Sisters of Battle have received more basic upgrade options than Chaos Marines have. Sure it's only Storm bolters, Inferno pistols & the Bolter/Crossbow combi-weapon, but the point stands. The most neglected army of all has had more basic upgrade options than CSM's have received!!

When Sisters begin getting more toys than someone else, you know it's *really* bad.

I'll second Guard. We're not the most competitive army out there. But dang is it a fun army to play

 Jancoran wrote:

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Now that Tau are on the same level as other rated B and A factions, when will C and D rated factions get the same level of power as factions like Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Marines, etc. I'm curious, I want to start my 2nd army towards the start of next year. So far I'm leaning towards Tau,
anyone want to persuade me to field a different faction? I'm open to all opinions.

Astra Militarum have been good ever since I've known about them. they have an answer for all unit types nd toughness's. They compete in every phase. They are bulky, and opponents enjoy playing them because when the opponents shoot, things die a lot which on some human level makes them more "fun to play against", kinda like orks. So if Tau Empire (which has been my favorite faction) isnt your thing, Astra Militarum are pretty fun and painting them is pretty fun to if you like painting (I dont, yet i enjoyed painting my IG).

That's food for thought.

Wait, IG compete in every phase? Are you serious?

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Be warned, a lot of the IG players here always say they're incredibly weak.

That is definitely not something I hear a lot of.

for example look at this:

40 IG (4 LasCannons, 4 Power Axes)
+3 Psykers (Divination, looking to get forewarning power)
+3 Priests (You can go with less, but its a risk given their LD)

This unit can acccess a 4+ invul save that can be re-rolled in close combat, while bringing 7 Power weapons to bear that re-roll to hit on the first round of combat and can re-roll to wound every round if they make their LD check. Further, until they engage, they can try for the Foreboding power that gives them Counter attack and FULL BS Overwatch! Its an absolute beast to take down. I have lost this unit all of one time, ever, recently, to a Haemonculus coven. Not once outside of that has it died. Its also a Zealot so it never runs.

When you can put that kind of behemoth on a field, you're really cooking.

Now the Lascannons can stay stationary while the rest of the unit moves forward ot the attack. This can allow a lot of cans to be popped and they can have Prescience cast on them and/or use orders to guarnatee it almost.

That leaves you with about 1400 more points to go out and get anti-air and wyverns (GOOD GAWD the WYVERNS ARE AWESOME!) and whatever else you can imagine. Or build another blob just like it. Yeah. Preeeety awesome.

So when someone tells me IG arent good... Well...

And if you do have two blobs, thats also 12 Psyker dice Plus what you roll. In movement phase they have lots of units that deep strike or are fast. In the Psyker phase theyre fine, including cheap goodies like relic plating and the Assault phase? no problem.

 hanshotfirst wrote:
why do all threads related to balance devolve into csm players whining (not saying they dont have any reason, just why dont you guys make a thread that is titled "whine about your csm!")

Because there are a lot of CSM players. And CSM suck.

 Jancoran wrote:


That is definitely not something I hear a lot of.

for example look at this:

40 IG (4 LasCannons, 4 Power Axes)
+3 Psykers (Divination, looking to get forewarning power)
+3 Priests (You can go with less, but its a risk given their LD)

That's 670pts. Hardly a bargain, given that all you're putting out is 4 BS3 lascannon shots and some lasguns.

This unit can acccess a 4+ invul save that can be re-rolled in close combat What is giving them this invulnerable save? , while bringing 7 Power weapons to bear that re-roll to hit on the first round of combat and can re-roll to wound every round if they make their LD check. Further, until they engage, they can try for the Foreboding power that gives them Counter attack and FULL BS Overwatch! All these attacks are WS3, and even the power weapons are only S4. Hope you're not charged by any walkers, because even an armoured sentinel can lock this unit down for the entire game. Its an absolute beast to take down. I have lost this unit all of one time, ever, recently, to a Haemonculus coven. Not once outside of that has it died. Its also a Zealot so it never runs. Yeah, it's so utterly amazing that it's been present in all of zero tournaments.

When you can put that kind of behemoth on a field, you're really cooking. Indeed. Now all you need is an opponent who lacks a brainstem and you're set.

Now the Lascannons can stay stationary while the rest of the unit moves forward ot the attack. Eh? This can allow a lot of cans to be popped and they can have Prescience cast on them and/or use orders to guarnatee it almost. [

That leaves you with about 1400 more points to go out and get anti-air and wyverns (GOOD GAWD the WYVERNS ARE AWESOME!) and whatever else you can imagine. Or build another blob just like it. Yeah. Preeeety awesome. Yeah, I mean, you've spent over a quarter of your points on a unit of about 50 T3 dudes with worthless saves who put out all of 4 lascannon shots.

So when someone tells me IG arent good... Well... And *this* is why you think IG are good?

And if you do have two blobs Um, you know that you can't take more than 3 priests or psykers, right? So, if you want to take 2 of these units - because you're just that eager to lose or something - then you have to take a second CAD, meaning at least one more troop and HQ choice. On top of, you know. the 670pts you're already forking out for this crap. , thats also 12 Psyker dice Plus what you roll. In movement phase they have lots of units that deep strike or are fast. Are you sure you're talking about IG here? Also, if you've just spent about 1600pts on these squads and the requisite HQs and troops, you'll barely have anything else in your army - let alone a load of fast stuff. In the Psyker phase theyre fine, including cheap goodies like relic plating and the Assault phase? no problem. And what about in, oh I don't know, the shooting phase? You seem to think that enemy armies will have trouble removing about 50 T3 guys. Are you playing 3rd edition or something?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
why do all threads related to balance devolve into csm players whining (not saying they dont have any reason, just why dont you guys make a thread that is titled "whine about your csm!")

Because there are a lot of CSM players. And CSM suck.

Yet they don't, actually.

 vipoid wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


That is definitely not something I hear a lot of.

for example look at this:

40 IG (4 LasCannons, 4 Power Axes)
+3 Psykers (Divination, looking to get forewarning power)
+3 Priests (You can go with less, but its a risk given their LD)

That's 670pts. Hardly a bargain, given that all you're putting out is 4 BS3 lascannon shots and some lasguns.

This unit can acccess a 4+ invul save that can be re-rolled in close combat What is giving them this invulnerable save? , while bringing 7 Power weapons to bear that re-roll to hit on the first round of combat and can re-roll to wound every round if they make their LD check. Further, until they engage, they can try for the Foreboding power that gives them Counter attack and FULL BS Overwatch! All these attacks are WS3, and even the power weapons are only S4. Hope you're not charged by any walkers, because even an armoured sentinel can lock this unit down for the entire game. Its an absolute beast to take down. I have lost this unit all of one time, ever, recently, to a Haemonculus coven. Not once outside of that has it died. Its also a Zealot so it never runs. Yeah, it's so utterly amazing that it's been present in all of zero tournaments.

When you can put that kind of behemoth on a field, you're really cooking. Indeed. Now all you need is an opponent who lacks a brainstem and you're set.

Now the Lascannons can stay stationary while the rest of the unit moves forward ot the attack. Eh? This can allow a lot of cans to be popped and they can have Prescience cast on them and/or use orders to guarnatee it almost. [

That leaves you with about 1400 more points to go out and get anti-air and wyverns (GOOD GAWD the WYVERNS ARE AWESOME!) and whatever else you can imagine. Or build another blob just like it. Yeah. Preeeety awesome. Yeah, I mean, you've spent over a quarter of your points on a unit of about 50 T3 dudes with worthless saves who put out all of 4 lascannon shots.

So when someone tells me IG arent good... Well... And *this* is why you think IG are good?

And if you do have two blobs Um, you know that you can't take more than 3 priests or psykers, right? So, if you want to take 2 of these units - because you're just that eager to lose or something - then you have to take a second CAD, meaning at least one more troop and HQ choice. On top of, you know. the 670pts you're already forking out for this crap. , thats also 12 Psyker dice Plus what you roll. In movement phase they have lots of units that deep strike or are fast. Are you sure you're talking about IG here? Also, if you've just spent about 1600pts on these squads and the requisite HQs and troops, you'll barely have anything else in your army - let alone a load of fast stuff. In the Psyker phase theyre fine, including cheap goodies like relic plating and the Assault phase? no problem. And what about in, oh I don't know, the shooting phase? You seem to think that enemy armies will have trouble removing about 50 T3 guys. Are you playing 3rd edition or something?

You're kind of being a jerk. But okay. I'll respond.

WS 3 doesnt matter. Its 4's to hit, re-rolling (either from Prescience or from Zealot, your pick). WS 3 is fine. The unit hardly takes any damage no matter whats smacking on it unless its powers fail. And that happens for a round sometimes but again... Killed only onece ever. So....

Invul save as mentioned is from Forewarning.

It has been in several tournaments. Actually. You're pretty cool for Insulting opponents though, and for saying that all it does is fire four lascannon shots (and for the record its 40 dudes, not 50), which illustrates that you are totally not seeing it. its a melee unit that happens to shoot. And it can shoot a lot. and its shooting lasts a fair while. So yeah. But mainly the assault.

And you seem confused by the basic concept of the blob moving when the Cannons do not so let me explain: The blob moves except the cannons, which do not. And therefore they can fire freely. Twin linked and with Monster hunter etc... from Prescience and from orders. Not sure whats causing you to say "eh" but there you go. Perhaps you are unaware that 7E allows this.

This unit isn't WHY I say IG are good. Its ONE reason why I say they are good.

And yes. I am reasonably certain i understood that you'd be taking two cads if you ever felt the need to take two of these. So what. Lol. I'm just pointing out that you can.

I personally never needed to.

But yeah the Astra militarum codex might be coming next year for 7E and it should be interesting.

 Jancoran wrote:


You're kind of being a jerk. But okay. I'll respond.

WS 3 doesnt matter. Its 4's to hit, re-rolling (either from Prescience or from Zealot, your pick). WS 3 is fine. The unit hardly takes any damage no matter whats smacking on it unless its powers fail. And that happens for a round sometimes but again... Killed only onece ever. So....

Invul save as mentioned is from Forewarning.

It has been in several tournaments. Actually. You're pretty cool for Insulting opponents though, and for saying that all it does is fire four lascannon shots (and for the record its 40 dudes, not 50), which illustrates that you are totally not seeing it. its a melee unit that happens to shoot. And it can shoot a lot. and its shooting lasts a fair while. So yeah. But mainly the assault.

And you seem confused by the basic concept of the blob moving when the Cannons do not so let me explain: The blob moves except the cannons, which do not. And therefore they can fire freely. Twin linked and with Monster hunter etc... from Prescience and from orders. Not sure whats causing you to say "eh" but there you go. Perhaps you are unaware that 7E allows this.

This unit isn't WHY I say IG are good. Its ONE reason why I say they are good.

And yes. I am reasonably certain i understood that you'd be taking two cads if you ever felt the need to take two of these. So what. Lol. I'm just pointing out that you can.

I personally never needed to.

But yeah the Astra militarum codex might be coming next year for 7E and it should be interesting.

I've seen people claim that blob IG are good, unitl they hit the table at any sort of competitive tournament. Then they are proven wrong.

WS3 is bad. It means that anyone with WS4 or above and Fearless can decimate you in combat while preventing you from leaving. Park a Bloodthirster or a tooled-up Daemon Prince next to this unit, and you'll be locked down for the rest of the game.

Do you know how often you fail a 4+ save? Fifty percent of the time. Apply some of the massed firepower that out there in 7th edition, especially new Tau, and you'll be shoveling models off the table.

You will have a minimum of twelve psychic dice. At most, you can conceivably get off four, maybe five powers. This does not take into account any Deny the Witch attempts or perils. You have exactly the same problem that summoning lists have, without the ability to mitigate the weaknesses by summoning more psykers.

Do you want to know how many Lascannon shots you need to kill a Riptide or Wraithknight? Even with re-rolls, Ignores Cover, and Monster Hunter four lascannons will take about three turns of shooting to kill a unit like that. By then, it's already too late.

It's a melee unit that's only powerful by virtue of the sheer number of bodies it can put on the table. At most, you can move twelve inches a turn. Any sufficiently mobile army can kite you across the board.

Sure, you can leave the Lascannons behind. Have fun maintaining coherency with the rest of the unit. All someone has to do is move behind the blob and shoot the weapons platforms dead. Alternatively, charge the weapons platforms. What's that? So many guardsmen died that you can't make your pile-in? Tough luck. Hit-and Run is also a rule that counters the blob.

7th edition is about mobility. Imperial Guard are notoriously lacking in cost-effective means of getting around the board. Remember: I don't have to kill or even fight the blob. I can just run around the board scoring objectives and avoiding the blob. Even if I have to kill it, I don't have to kill the entire blob. All I have to do is target the weakest and most isolated parts, and the blob gets pulled in too many directions to be effective.

I f you want a blob army, either use the Green Tide or broods of thirty gaunts. Blob Guard is dead. You pay too many points for too little effect.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


You're kind of being a jerk. But okay. I'll respond.

WS 3 doesnt matter. Its 4's to hit, re-rolling (either from Prescience or from Zealot, your pick). WS 3 is fine. The unit hardly takes any damage no matter whats smacking on it unless its powers fail. And that happens for a round sometimes but again... Killed only onece ever. So....

Invul save as mentioned is from Forewarning.

It has been in several tournaments. Actually. You're pretty cool for Insulting opponents though, and for saying that all it does is fire four lascannon shots (and for the record its 40 dudes, not 50), which illustrates that you are totally not seeing it. its a melee unit that happens to shoot. And it can shoot a lot. and its shooting lasts a fair while. So yeah. But mainly the assault.

And you seem confused by the basic concept of the blob moving when the Cannons do not so let me explain: The blob moves except the cannons, which do not. And therefore they can fire freely. Twin linked and with Monster hunter etc... from Prescience and from orders. Not sure whats causing you to say "eh" but there you go. Perhaps you are unaware that 7E allows this.

This unit isn't WHY I say IG are good. Its ONE reason why I say they are good.

And yes. I am reasonably certain i understood that you'd be taking two cads if you ever felt the need to take two of these. So what. Lol. I'm just pointing out that you can.

I personally never needed to.

But yeah the Astra militarum codex might be coming next year for 7E and it should be interesting.

I've seen people claim that blob IG are good, unitl they hit the table at any sort of competitive tournament. Then they are proven wrong.

WS3 is bad. It means that anyone with WS4 or above and Fearless can decimate you in combat while preventing you from leaving. Park a Bloodthirster or a tooled-up Daemon Prince next to this unit, and you'll be locked down for the rest of the game.

Do you know how often you fail a 4+ save? Fifty percent of the time. Apply some of the massed firepower that out there in 7th edition, especially new Tau, and you'll be shoveling models off the table.

You will have a minimum of twelve psychic dice. At most, you can conceivably get off four, maybe five powers. This does not take into account any Deny the Witch attempts or perils. You have exactly the same problem that summoning lists have, without the ability to mitigate the weaknesses by summoning more psykers.

Do you want to know how many Lascannon shots you need to kill a Riptide or Wraithknight? Even with re-rolls, Ignores Cover, and Monster Hunter four lascannons will take about three turns of shooting to kill a unit like that. By then, it's already too late.

It's a melee unit that's only powerful by virtue of the sheer number of bodies it can put on the table. At most, you can move twelve inches a turn. Any sufficiently mobile army can kite you across the board.

Sure, you can leave the Lascannons behind. Have fun maintaining coherency with the rest of the unit. All someone has to do is move behind the blob and shoot the weapons platforms dead. Alternatively, charge the weapons platforms. What's that? So many guardsmen died that you can't make your pile-in? Tough luck. Hit-and Run is also a rule that counters the blob.

7th edition is about mobility. Imperial Guard are notoriously lacking in cost-effective means of getting around the board. Remember: I don't have to kill or even fight the blob. I can just run around the board scoring objectives and avoiding the blob. Even if I have to kill it, I don't have to kill the entire blob. All I have to do is target the weakest and most isolated parts, and the blob gets pulled in too many directions to be effective.

I f you want a blob army, either use the Green Tide or broods of thirty gaunts. Blob Guard is dead. You pay too many points for too little effect.

You can achieve a similar result with allied dark angels and azreal. Take a dark angels librarian formation and get 3x 24" range mind worm and then you can effectively nuder dangerous units on the board for the rest of the game.

I know that it isn't a pure guard list but big fearless blobs with 4+ invuln and massed firepower is a viable tactic.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
why do all threads related to balance devolve into csm players whining (not saying they dont have any reason, just why dont you guys make a thread that is titled "whine about your csm!")

Because there are a lot of CSM players. And CSM suck.

There are a lot of us, that's for sure. We outnumbered the Loyalists a decade ago so GW had to nerf us to the ground.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

I've seen people claim that blob IG are good, unitl they hit the table at any sort of competitive tournament. Then they are proven wrong.

WS3 is bad. It means that anyone with WS4 or above and Fearless can decimate you in combat while preventing you from leaving. Park a Bloodthirster or a tooled-up Daemon Prince next to this unit, and you'll be locked down for the rest of the game.

Do you know how often you fail a 4+ save? Fifty percent of the time. Apply some of the massed firepower that out there in 7th edition, especially new Tau, and you'll be shoveling models off the table.

You will have a minimum of twelve psychic dice. At most, you can conceivably get off four, maybe five powers. This does not take into account any Deny the Witch attempts or perils. You have exactly the same problem that summoning lists have, without the ability to mitigate the weaknesses by summoning more psykers.

Do you want to know how many Lascannon shots you need to kill a Riptide or Wraithknight? Even with re-rolls, Ignores Cover, and Monster Hunter four lascannons will take about three turns of shooting to kill a unit like that. By then, it's already too late.

It's a melee unit that's only powerful by virtue of the sheer number of bodies it can put on the table. At most, you can move twelve inches a turn. Any sufficiently mobile army can kite you across the board.

Sure, you can leave the Lascannons behind. Have fun maintaining coherency with the rest of the unit. All someone has to do is move behind the blob and shoot the weapons platforms dead. Alternatively, charge the weapons platforms. What's that? So many guardsmen died that you can't make your pile-in? Tough luck. Hit-and Run is also a rule that counters the blob.

7th edition is about mobility. Imperial Guard are notoriously lacking in cost-effective means of getting around the board. Remember: I don't have to kill or even fight the blob. I can just run around the board scoring objectives and avoiding the blob. Even if I have to kill it, I don't have to kill the entire blob. All I have to do is target the weakest and most isolated parts, and the blob gets pulled in too many directions to be effective.

I f you want a blob army, either use the Green Tide or broods of thirty gaunts. Blob Guard is dead. You pay too many points for too little effect.

I think you're missing it. Its not just a 4+ invul.... Its a 4+ RE-ROLLABLE invul. So you were saying?

Wraith Knights are difficult all around so using them as some meter against this unit? pointless. Also: I'm pretty sure the blobs Lascannons arent the extent of what the army will be firing. Lol. But sure. If that was ALL your army had, I suppose (and it wouldnt be) then you'd have a point.

And Kiting is fine because the unit is so big that it can multi charge and lock up large amounts of units. Ive done it. If you get the Strategic Warlord Trait for infiltrating? SAWEET!

Anywho, knock it all ya' want. it works.

 Jancoran wrote:

I think you're missing it. Its not just a 4+ invul.... Its a 4+ RE-ROLLABLE invul. So you were saying?

It's rerollable in melee. Outside of melee you're relying on a 4+ save when virtually every weapon is going to be wounding you on 3s and 2s.

 Jancoran wrote:

Wraith Knights are difficult all around so using them as some meter against this unit? pointless.

But where do you stop? You can't claim that IG are great and that this is somehow a amazing unit, only to then say that we should ignore every unit that would prove you wrong.

Sorry, like it or not WKs and such are the meta now. If IG and your super-unit can't deal with them then they're not a good army.

 Jancoran wrote:
Also: I'm pretty sure the blobs Lascannons arent the extent of what the army will be firing. Lol. But sure. If that was ALL your army had, I suppose (and it wouldnt be) then you'd have a point.

But you're still spending 670pts on a unit that can be taken out of the game by a single WK.

 Jancoran wrote:

And Kiting is fine because the unit is so big that it can multi charge and lock up large amounts of units. Ive done it. If you get the Strategic Warlord Trait for infiltrating? SAWEET!

Do your opponents never lock down this unit with any of their stuff (like thr aforementioned WK)? Or, you know, take advantage of the fact that it's a blob of T3 models and just shoot the thing to death?

 Jancoran wrote:

Anywho, knock it all ya' want. it works.

And Hellions are also the best unit in the game. No, you're not allowed to point out any of their flaws. And we can't count any unit that's better than them either.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
why do all threads related to balance devolve into csm players whining (not saying they dont have any reason, just why dont you guys make a thread that is titled "whine about your csm!")

Because there are a lot of CSM players. And CSM suck.

Yet they don't, actually.

Yeah, they really do suck. CSM are up there for worst army in the game, with maybe 20% of their codex even being viable.

If you have some secret hidden tech that nobody has seen before for CSM, I'd love to hear it.

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
why do all threads related to balance devolve into csm players whining (not saying they dont have any reason, just why dont you guys make a thread that is titled "whine about your csm!")

Because there are a lot of CSM players. And CSM suck.

Yet they don't, actually.

Yeah, they really do suck. CSM are up there for worst army in the game, with maybe 20% of their codex even being viable.

If you have some secret hidden tech that nobody has seen before for CSM, I'd love to hear it.

Don't worry, the can't-fire-sideways chicken from hell will save us!

BAGAWK!

 Selym wrote:

If you have some secret hidden tech that nobody has seen before for CSM, I'd love to hear it.

Don't worry, the can't-fire-sideways chicken from hell will save us!

BAGAWK!

Yeah, they really do suck. CSM are up there for worst army in the game, with maybe 20% of their codex even being viable.

If you have some secret hidden tech that nobody has seen before for CSM, I'd love to hear it.

Largely the Khorne Daemonkin codex. It takes away most of the guff and makes the khorne bits of the army work the way they should. Hell, I've even seen the slaughtercult make Possessed perform well.....

Sparing chaos players the endless random tables is worth it in and of itself.



As far as Astra Militarum are concerned, a blob trying to do everything will fail at everything. They don't do deathstars and trying to will fall over. Every guard unit needs to be expendable.

But they can compete in each phase.

Melee-equipped blobs can be lethal. Many S4 power axes with zealot are a buzz-saw given how cheap they are. Yes, an armoured sentinel can lock that unit down.....until you realise each sergeant can take meltabombs for 5 points - that's enough S8 AP1 attacks to inconvenience even a monstrous creature.

Shooting? They have a tool for every job - from Punisher gatlings (pask or vulture gunships as you see fit), to wyvern mortar salvos, to demolisher cannons.

Manouvrability? Cheap mechanised infantry, deep strikers.

Psykers? No one 'good' but astropaths and primaris are cheap, and have access to divination & telepathy - the two best disciplines for a support psyker.

Guard aren't earthshaking, but 'incredibly weak' is pushing it.

So then, if guard compete in every phase, why is it they never win any tournaments?

 vipoid wrote:
So then, if guard compete in every phase, why is it they never win any tournaments?

I mean, I wouldn't call IG top tier by any stretch of the imagination. I'd probably put them on the bottom of middle tier if I had to place them in the power rankings, and that just isn't good enough to win a tournament in 40k. The power difference between tiers is just too massive to overcome when everyone is a good player.

Personally I don't see the melee blob as being very good. It's too weak against massed shooting, which is common in the game, and it has no way to get to melee unless the enemy allows it to. It only allows a +1 save against shooting compared to cover, so scat bikes still decimate it. It can't out melee any of the death stars currently on the table either, while costing a lot of points. It doesn't have the firepower many of the better deathstars have available as well.

I can see it doing well in a casual setting, but it can't go up against the top tier dexes if they try.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
why do all threads related to balance devolve into csm players whining (not saying they dont have any reason, just why dont you guys make a thread that is titled "whine about your csm!")

Let's put it this way: Sisters of Battle have received more basic upgrade options than Chaos Marines have. Sure it's only Storm bolters, Inferno pistols & the Bolter/Crossbow combi-weapon, but the point stands. The most neglected army of all has had more basic upgrade options than CSM's have received!!

When Sisters begin getting more toys than someone else, you know it's *really* bad.

That's not a fair comparison, given that unlike SoB's singular troop choice, CSM has 2 (CSM and cultists), plus 4 unlockable variants (Plague marines, noise marines, berzerkers and 1ksons)
Also, they got marks and banners, who are far more than sister's team upgrades.

Not saying CSM are all right, but its really a not fair comparison.

 vipoid wrote:
So then, if guard compete in every phase, why is it they never win any tournaments?

Because while they have decent movement phase, decent psyker phase, good shooting phase and not horrid assault phase-their various strengths just don't mix properly.
Its like Oreos and Cheeseburger-both are good. but don't really work together.
And their army style goes against the standard conviction of 6th of "have few really powerful units", without really having the tools to play 7th's MSU style (some armies, like IK, still play 6th style very well in 7th. its just their thing.), because while each individual piece is cheap and usually good at it's job, there is zero follow-up.

Add the fact that Renegades and Heretics do the horde system, AND the artillery gunline variations better, and you get yourself a codex that isn't really mastering anything that nobody else can't beat it at, and cant combine its various abilities in a meaningful way.

Akiasura wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
So then, if guard compete in every phase, why is it they never win any tournaments?

I mean, I wouldn't call IG top tier by any stretch of the imagination. I'd probably put them on the bottom of middle tier if I had to place them in the power rankings, and that just isn't good enough to win a tournament in 40k. The power difference between tiers is just too massive to overcome when everyone is a good player.

Personally I don't see the melee blob as being very good. It's too weak against massed shooting, which is common in the game, and it has no way to get to melee unless the enemy allows it to. It only allows a +1 save against shooting compared to cover, so scat bikes still decimate it. It can't out melee any of the death stars currently on the table either, while costing a lot of points. It doesn't have the firepower many of the better deathstars have available as well.

I can see it doing well in a casual setting, but it can't go up against the top tier dexes if they try.

Of the remaining 6th edition codices, I'd say Guard are definitely a solid 3rd out of the 4...

Daemons when they try will absolutely murder them, unless the Guard goes full-on Armoured Co. Tyranids likewise, thanks to their Shield of Baal updates can have fun making Guardsuffer with Pentyrant lists.

On the other hand, Guard simply laugh at anything the poor Chaos Marines can throw at them... Zombie lists simply evaporate to Wyverns, while the sheer number of special/heavy weapons the infantry can bring will mow down the over priced infantry that CSM's can bring. The Hellturkey looses out against Guard as well, since it's template is complete overkill as you only need basic Flamers to remove Guard infantry.



Of the remaining 6th ed books that still need updating, it should honestly go as Chaos Marine re-boot ---> Guard ---> Tyranids ---> Daemons.

Of course, we all know that it'll probably end up being Tyranids ---> Guard ---> Other ---> Other ---> Other ---> Daemon nerf ---> 8th edition... (40,000 years later...) Finally Chaos Marines get a new codex!!!

It's really confusing when everyone just shortens it down to "Chaos" sucking, when in reality its just CSM.

Cause KDK has some pretty solid formations in the Gorepack and Slaughtercult, and Daemons still has Screamerstar and flying circus lists.

So there are still competitive ways to play these armies.
Just not CSM.

 vipoid wrote:


It's rerollable in melee. Outside of melee you're relying on a 4+ save when virtually every weapon is going to be wounding you on 3s and 2s.

But where do you stop? You can't claim that IG are great and that this is somehow a amazing unit, only to then say that we should ignore every unit that would prove you wrong.

Sorry, like it or not WKs and such are the meta now. If IG and your super-unit can't deal with them then they're not a good army.

But you're still spending 670pts on a unit that can be taken out of the game by a single WK.

Do your opponents never lock down this unit with any of their stuff (like thr aforementioned WK)? Or, you know, take advantage of the fact that it's a blob of T3 models and just shoot the thing to death?

And Hellions are also the best unit in the game. No, you're not allowed to point out any of their flaws. And we can't count any unit that's better than them either.

Its a melee UNIT so YES... In melee! You act as if this isnt the plan!

And Wraith Knights dont invalidate an entire army. ONE Wraith Knight can be taken down by IG firepower. do you think them miraculously immune? Its so weird how people like th throw "Wraith Knight" ut as some excuse for something else sucking. Its like: what do you THINK the rest of the army is DOING in the mean time?

Its fine. do what you want. But I'll happily spend the 600 points because its also a death blossom of 7 units that can explode out to take objectives at the end when the blob hs done all the good it can.

Once you've faced it, you won't be as eager to dismiss it again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

Yeah, they really do suck. CSM are up there for worst army in the game, with maybe 20% of their codex even being viable.

If you have some secret hidden tech that nobody has seen before for CSM, I'd love to hear it.

I have a blog full of examples. Last night, i lost all but three of my Chaos models (the battle damaged Heldrake, the wounded Obliterator and a raptor) but won 20-5. The week before it defeated a Forge World Tyranid force and a Necron Decurion, and had i not been an idiot and remembered to move two rhinos, would have beaten a Nurgle Daemon list. And I played a one off against a guy who had a Dreadnought list. I killed exactly ONE Tactical Marine the whole game and would have won if I could have gotten the last hull pint off his Land Raider which miraculously wouldnt die. So it was a tie.

I have said that Chaos needs a new codex but the codex is usable and you can win with it. I'm not really aware of any codex that I would consider unusable now. they're all in the mix if you know how to play them.

 Jancoran wrote:

Its a melee UNIT so YES... In melee! You act as if this isnt the plan!

A melee unit consisting of T3 models that move 6" per turn. Yeah, can't see that going wrong.

 Jancoran wrote:

And Wraith Knights dont invalidate an entire army. ONE Wraith Knight can be taken down by IG firepower. do you think them miraculously immune? Its so weird how people like th throw "Wraith Knight" ut as some excuse for something else sucking. Its like: what do you THINK the rest of the army is DOING in the mean time?

And what do you think the rest of the Eldar army is doing? If we're going down this route, then he can just wipe that squad off the board with scatterbikes.

 Jancoran wrote:

Its fine. do what you want. But I'll happily spend the 600 points because its also a death blossom of 7 units that can explode out to take objectives at the end when the blob hs done all the good it can.

Once you've faced it, you won't be as eager to dismiss it again.

Yes, I'm sure blowing your ~700pt unit off the board in a couple of turns will give me an entirely new perspective as to its value.

/smh

Okay dude. Good talk.

I looked through your blog briefly, didn't see the battle report. Link?

I did see your comments on how CSM can take down a wraith knight and saw you got some rules wrong, enough that makes your strategy not work. So....yeah. There is that.

Akiasura wrote:
I looked through your blog briefly, didn't see the battle report. Link?

I did see your comments on how CSM can take down a wraith knight and saw you got some rules wrong, enough that makes your strategy not work. So....yeah. There is that.

I edit'd the most recent article. We all make a mistake now and again. Peer editing is good.

As for the batreps... which ones are you looking for specifically?



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Night Lords Batrep

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Night Lord Thoughts

Night Lords Wrap up

the dude who works in my local gw store said that the 14th November is going to be a massive release day with A LOT of new kits being released. wonder what will come out of it