Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dman137 wrote:
One of my biggest pet-peeves is people that play with unpainted models, don't get me wrong some people take a while to paint, but if in a month you can't finish one squad then common. At are local gaming store we made a house rule that you need to have at least 3 colours and the base done if you want to play. Know one wants to see a army of primed models or the sea of grey.
How does everyone else feel about this, paint and play.?

I think you should let people play even if it is not painted... Common man, they are all the same even if they are grey... Just play lol

 Matthew wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
takes to a GW employee not to long ago and they are seriously thinking now about bringing back the rule of only painted models at the store

Did they feel they had too many customers or something?

GW makes a lot of does a lot of things that don't make sense and only piss off everyone else, huge price increase, AOS, "totally balanced codexs" and best of all today the Black Friday sale where you don't really save on anything because what you do save is just random units you would never buy lol

What does this have to do with painting?

it's has to do with the fact that GW will invoke a rule like you need painted stuff or you can't play on there tables. It's really not that hard to get your stuff painted, it's just like when you want to lose weight, take some time and work out and don't be lazy same applys for painting your stuff, you paid a lot of money for something that's just going to stay black.? Show some effort and paint your stuff

How will GW benefit from enforcing that rule?

paint sales. How did GW profit from AOS lol

I'm the type of person who's a complete perfectionist, AND, really, really slow at painting. Also doesn't help that I can no longer stay at it and focus on tiny details for more than an hour or so without feeling like crap due to the large number of concussions I suffered over the years playing competitive hockey.

I try to get my stuff done, but it's never going to get done in an arbitrary 'timely manner'.

If some people want to just play with unpainted stuff for whatever reason, that's fine. It's their hobby and their time investment. Sure fully painted always looks amazing, but trying to exclude people just because they don't hobby the way you do is pure elitism at it's finest.
GW actually changed up their old "must have fully painted models to play" rules from years and years ago, simply because it was costing them business.

They, sold a succesful starter kit, they opened up a market for younger players. But so many more people would not want to go toa GW store if they couldn't play. Many have 30 minutes to an hours drive there, who would spend that time to just buy something?

Experiment 626 wrote:
I'm the type of person who's a complete perfectionist, AND, really, really slow at painting. Also doesn't help that I can no longer stay at it and focus on tiny details for more than an hour or so without feeling like crap due to the large number of concussions I suffered over the years playing competitive hockey.

I try to get my stuff done, but it's never going to get done in an arbitrary 'timely manner'.

If some people want to just play with unpainted stuff for whatever reason, that's fine. It's their hobby and their time investment. Sure fully painted always looks amazing, but trying to exclude people just because they don't hobby the way you do is pure elitism at it's finest.
GW actually changed up their old "must have fully painted models to play" rules from years and years ago, simply because it was costing them business.

its not elitism at all, paint your stuff it's not hard, also you were one of many people that said you wouldn't play against competive eldar because there OP, that's the same kind of exclusion and elititisum

I'm fine with unpainted or just primed. I play against a lot of armies that are just 3 colours with no shading/highlighting and to me there's basically no difference between this and grey plastic as far as aesthetic appeal.

Dman137 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
I'm the type of person who's a complete perfectionist, AND, really, really slow at painting. Also doesn't help that I can no longer stay at it and focus on tiny details for more than an hour or so without feeling like crap due to the large number of concussions I suffered over the years playing competitive hockey.

I try to get my stuff done, but it's never going to get done in an arbitrary 'timely manner'.

If some people want to just play with unpainted stuff for whatever reason, that's fine. It's their hobby and their time investment. Sure fully painted always looks amazing, but trying to exclude people just because they don't hobby the way you do is pure elitism at it's finest.
GW actually changed up their old "must have fully painted models to play" rules from years and years ago, simply because it was costing them business.

its not elitism at all, paint your stuff it's not hard, also you were one of many people that said you wouldn't play against competive eldar because there OP, that's the same kind of exclusion and elititisum

There's a massive difference between telling someone to feth off simply because their models aren't painted to your own pretentious standards, than there is refusing to play against a highly obnoxious list that will effortlessly table your non-optimised Chaos list within 2 turns.

Large portions of my forces for the games I play are unpainted, largely as I have little time to actually do any painting, and what time I could use for it, gets used on gaming. Jervis once spoke of the 'hobby pie' in white dwarf, is the proportion of enjoyment you gain out of the different aspects of the hobby. Mine would be 49.5% gaming, 49.5% building models, and 1% painting. I almost actively dislike painting models. If people want to miss out on a fairly fun game because they don't want to go against unpainted models, then I hope they enjoy playing with themselves, and if it's a store trying to force it, I hope they didnt want any of my money in the first place

Experiment 626 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
I'm the type of person who's a complete perfectionist, AND, really, really slow at painting. Also doesn't help that I can no longer stay at it and focus on tiny details for more than an hour or so without feeling like crap due to the large number of concussions I suffered over the years playing competitive hockey.

I try to get my stuff done, but it's never going to get done in an arbitrary 'timely manner'.

If some people want to just play with unpainted stuff for whatever reason, that's fine. It's their hobby and their time investment. Sure fully painted always looks amazing, but trying to exclude people just because they don't hobby the way you do is pure elitism at it's finest.
GW actually changed up their old "must have fully painted models to play" rules from years and years ago, simply because it was costing them business.

its not elitism at all, paint your stuff it's not hard, also you were one of many people that said you wouldn't play against competive eldar because there OP, that's the same kind of exclusion and elititisum

There's a massive difference between telling someone to feth off simply because their models aren't painted to your own pretentious standards, than there is refusing to play against a highly obnoxious list that will effortlessly table your non-optimised Chaos list within 2 turns.

I don't think he mentioned anything about needing them painted to his standards, just that they need to be painted. Prime it, basecoat it, wash it, boom.

So what's the difference exactly? Both situations are refusing to play a game you won't enjoy...

I remember when the Oakville battle bunker first opened, and the last manager they had before GW did away with the whole, "your models must be 100% painted to play", would refused entry to people because they hadn't painted the eyes of their models.

Rihgu wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
I'm the type of person who's a complete perfectionist, AND, really, really slow at painting. Also doesn't help that I can no longer stay at it and focus on tiny details for more than an hour or so without feeling like crap due to the large number of concussions I suffered over the years playing competitive hockey.

I try to get my stuff done, but it's never going to get done in an arbitrary 'timely manner'.

If some people want to just play with unpainted stuff for whatever reason, that's fine. It's their hobby and their time investment. Sure fully painted always looks amazing, but trying to exclude people just because they don't hobby the way you do is pure elitism at it's finest.
GW actually changed up their old "must have fully painted models to play" rules from years and years ago, simply because it was costing them business.

its not elitism at all, paint your stuff it's not hard, also you were one of many people that said you wouldn't play against competive eldar because there OP, that's the same kind of exclusion and elititisum

There's a massive difference between telling someone to feth off simply because their models aren't painted to your own pretentious standards, than there is refusing to play against a highly obnoxious list that will effortlessly table your non-optimised Chaos list within 2 turns.

I don't think he mentioned anything about needing them painted to his standards, just that they need to be painted. Prime it, basecoat it, wash it, boom.

So what's the difference exactly? Both situations are refusing to play a game you won't enjoy...

I've played with and against unpainted or just bare primed stuff plenty of times. It doesn't make the game any less fun, it just doesn't look as visually pleasing as fully painted would have.
On the other hand, when you end up facing off against someone who's brought their soul crushing tournament stomping list and all you've got is a purely 'for fun' list, only one person is going to have any kind of fun.

And I never said I'd refuse to play against Eldar in general Dman... Only that I wouldn't play against the kind of specific spam lists of Scatbikers/Wraithknight/D-spam that tends to cheddarise every single Kraftworld Tournament list.

Why? Because my armies aren't built in any way to compete against that. It wouldn't be fun for me, and outside of being TFG, it wouldn't be fun for my opponent to auto-win at the army list stage either.

Dman137 wrote:
everyone has time to paint, it's called being lazy and not wanting to that's the problem.... there's no excuse for not painting your models, everyone has time ... but the point I'm trying to make is all stores should make the house rule that if you want to play it needs to be painted (at least 3 colours and based)

As someone who has a sizable eldar collection and enjoys painting his own models, no, not everyone who wants to paint has time.

In the last year I've worked 750 to 800 hours of overtime, holiday time, double time, or some other combination thereof. For those of you not wanting to/not caring enough to do the math, that's between 18.75-20 weeks, or 4.5 to 5 months extra of work on a 40 hour work week.

To put that in perspective, that's 15.5 to 16 months of work in an 11 month period.

I also have a future wargammer on the way, due in Feb.

So no, Dman and anyone else who is of similar opinion, sometimes there isn't time. Granted, the argument could be made that maybe I shouldn't be involved in a hobby, and were I to pick up warhammer today I'd agree with you. But I've been playing for the last 3 or so years, and life has steadily marched on since then.

So unless you are willing to tell me, and all others who potentially fill my shoes, that I need to liquidate my entire collection and then enjoyment I derive from playing the occasional game when possible because the combination of my work and home lives offends your sense of aesthetics in a casual pick up game (not tournament or competition setting, that's separate), then I will kindly tell you to grow up.

deathmagiks wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
everyone has time to paint, it's called being lazy and not wanting to that's the problem.... there's no excuse for not painting your models, everyone has time ... but the point I'm trying to make is all stores should make the house rule that if you want to play it needs to be painted (at least 3 colours and based)

As someone who has a sizable eldar collection and enjoys painting his own models, no, not everyone who wants to paint has time.

In the last year I've worked 750 to 800 hours of overtime, holiday time, double time, or some other combination thereof. For those of you not wanting to/not caring enough to do the math, that's between 18.75-20 weeks, or 4.5 to 5 months extra of work on a 40 hour work week.

To put that in perspective, that's 15.5 to 16 months of work in an 11 month period.

I also have a future wargammer on the way, due in Feb.

So no, Dman and anyone else who is of similar opinion, sometimes there isn't time. Granted, the argument could be made that maybe I shouldn't be involved in a hobby, and were I to pick up warhammer today I'd agree with you. But I've been playing for the last 3 or so years, and life has steadily marched on since then.

So unless you are willing to tell me, and all others who potentially fill my shoes, that I need to liquidate my entire collection and then enjoyment I derive from playing the occasional game when possible because the combination of my work and home lives offends your sense of aesthetics in a casual pick up game (not tournament or competition setting, that's separate), then I will kindly tell you to grow up.

Exalted

 War Kitten wrote:


Exalted

Appreciated! Hope you had a great holiday!

Dman, comparing not painting to cheese Eldar is like comparing an AK 47 to a cheese grinder. They're both different things.

Although I only play with painted minis, and prefer only to play against painted minis I actually disagree with the OP.

He states it isn't hard to paint an army, and this is what I disagree with.

Despite the fact I won't use a miniature until it is painted, I actually think it is very hard to paint a model, even to a basic standard. It takes a lot of concentration to neatly block in the base coat, let alone adding shading and highlighting.

Doing this several dozen times is daunting, tiring and time consuming, especially if you need to unpack/pack your painting station each time.

Dman137 wrote:
I no people that have the same all primed or even just built army's and refuse to paint them because they don't have time, but they somehow have time to play games lol if you have time to play a 2 hour game take that time and paint instead

I play less than 10 hours of 40k a year. It's something I keep hoping to change, but work doesn't allow it.

10 hours a year isn't really a whole lot of time to get painting done. Especially when my army is Orks, who use a fethton of models to begin with.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
I'm the type of person who's a complete perfectionist, AND, really, really slow at painting. Also doesn't help that I can no longer stay at it and focus on tiny details for more than an hour or so without feeling like crap due to the large number of concussions I suffered over the years playing competitive hockey.

I try to get my stuff done, but it's never going to get done in an arbitrary 'timely manner'.

If some people want to just play with unpainted stuff for whatever reason, that's fine. It's their hobby and their time investment. Sure fully painted always looks amazing, but trying to exclude people just because they don't hobby the way you do is pure elitism at it's finest.
GW actually changed up their old "must have fully painted models to play" rules from years and years ago, simply because it was costing them business.

its not elitism at all, paint your stuff it's not hard, also you were one of many people that said you wouldn't play against competive eldar because there OP, that's the same kind of exclusion and elititisum

There's a massive difference between telling someone to feth off simply because their models aren't painted to your own pretentious standards, than there is refusing to play against a highly obnoxious list that will effortlessly table your non-optimised Chaos list within 2 turns.

Dman's got a point here. You wouldn't play against a person that has very different views about how the game should be played. He's saying the same.

He has a point, and I've interpreted this point to be "You don't invest as much effort as I find acceptable into this hobby and your reasons, regardless of what they are, are wrong."

That's not an issue of a difference of opinion on how the hobby is played, like rules v fluff or hardcore v casual. That's just a sour position to take on *anything,* hobby or not.

I happen to really like painted models and think that a painted board (not a mat), painted terrain, and two painted armies makes the best game, casual or otherwise. But that's not what I'm reading him putting up here. I'm reading that he, and others like him, feel that you as a player are inherently enjoying things that you've purchased incorrectly because it's not living up to a painted standard.

This isn't about the awesomeness of painted miniatures, it's about the scrub-ness of those who don't have them. That's what I have a problem with.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Sure fully painted always looks amazing, but trying to exclude people just because they don't hobby the way you do is pure elitism at it's finest.

I see. So I'm obligated to accept a game that I'm probably not going to enjoy very much, and even refrain from criticizing my opponent, just to satisfy some arbitrary demand to not be elitist?

deathmagiks wrote:
He has a point, and I've interpreted this point to be "You don't invest as much effort as I find acceptable into this hobby and your reasons, regardless of what they are, are wrong."

That's not an issue of a difference of opinion on how the hobby is played, like rules v fluff or hardcore v casual. That's just a sour position to take on *anything,* hobby or not.

I happen to really like painted models and think that a painted board (not a mat), painted terrain, and two painted armies makes the best game, casual or otherwise. But that's not what I'm reading him putting up here. I'm reading that he, and others like him, feel that you as a player are inherently enjoying things that you've purchased incorrectly because it's not living up to a painted standard.

This isn't about the awesomeness of painted miniatures, it's about the scrub-ness of those who don't have them. That's what I have a problem with.

That actually sounds a lot like the hardcore vs. casual conversation...

 Peregrine wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Sure fully painted always looks amazing, but trying to exclude people just because they don't hobby the way you do is pure elitism at it's finest.

I see. So I'm obligated to accept a game that I'm probably not going to enjoy very much, and even refrain from criticizing my opponent, just to satisfy some arbitrary demand to not be elitist?

You're not obligated to do anything. You can say whatever you like to that person, just like you're 100% welcome to tell someone they're wrong for driving or owning a car with a sub-par painting scheme because it's an insult to the industry. (Hell, that car might cost less than someone's army depending on the make, model and year...)

That is your right. My right is to point out how much of a you're acting like for doing so.

deathmagiks wrote:
My right is to point out how much of a you're acting like for doing so.

And, again, I'm a if I don't accept a game that I'm not going to enjoy very much? Why are we acting like everyone is entitled to play a game against any opponent they want, and calling people TFG for declining to play?

If i had a choice between a grey army or a half assed 3 color coated painted army that took like 3minutes i rather play with the grey army.

though obvious exceptions to be made.

I rather people take there time and do things the way they want to rather than what everyone else wants them to do.

I rate this thread a 5/10. You can do better, Dman137.

Personally, I don't care if you haven't gotten your army fully painted, or even partially painted. Sure, it's always nice to play a fully-painted army, and some tournaments require armies to be fully painted, but people have other things going on in their lives. I know I sure do, which is why my current Eldar army isn't fully painted.

This might have something to do with the fact that I can't paint beyond table-top standard. There's a reason you don't see my Eldar in the Gallery section...

 Peregrine wrote:

deathmagiks wrote:
My right is to point out how much of a you're acting like for doing so.

And, again, I'm a if I don't accept a game that I'm not going to enjoy very much? Why are we acting like everyone is entitled to play a game against any opponent they want, and calling people TFG for declining to play?

You are entirely within your reason to refuse a game for any reason. Anyone who begrudges you that to the point of direct challenge has their own issues. No one is entitled to anything at anyone else's expense.

Regardless of how true that is however, if your reasoning for not enjoying a game consists chiefly of your opponent being an unpainted-army-sporting pleb then... well I honestly cannot see how that's an acceptable social behavior. For anyone. In any situation. Hobby-related or not.

"You're beneath me" is not an inherently illegal or forbidden demeanor, but it is reprehensible.

Ultimately table top lives or dies on the community. Rolling dice by yourself is much less fun.

**Edit: Grammar and context**

deathmagiks wrote:
"You're beneath me" is not an inherently illegal or forbidden demeanor, but it is reprehensible.

That's not the reasoning at all. It's "I don't enjoy playing with or against unpainted armies".

It's not elitist to want to play with painted armies. It's the basic point of tabletop figure wargaming rather than some other form of games.

Boardgames, map games and video games all offer different advantages compared to toy soldier games, but only toy soldiers gives you that visual and tactile appeal.

People can do what they want with their models. For me, I have to paint my stuff before I feel okay about using it. As a kid though, I remember we hardly got 25% of our armies painted, if even completely finished assembling. I wouldn't turn down a game with someone if they hadn't painted. I might be unenthusiastic about a game with someone proxying a lot of models, however.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's not elitist to want to play with painted armies. It's the basic point of tabletop figure wargaming rather than some other form of games.

Boardgames, map games and video games all offer different advantages compared to toy soldier games, but only toy soldiers gives you that visual and tactile appeal.

Exactly. And this is especially important in a game like 40k, where the rules are an unbalanced mess and the game isn't worth playing at all if you replace the beautiful models with cardboard tokens.

 Peregrine wrote:

deathmagiks wrote:
"You're beneath me" is not an inherently illegal or forbidden demeanor, but it is reprehensible.

That's not the reasoning at all. It's "I don't enjoy playing with or against unpainted armies".

And that's perfectly ok! My concern is the judgement of the worth of the person in relation to the hobby. I don't judge you for wanted to play against painted armies. I understand that, and happen to agree with you (and hope you haven't taken anything I've said personally). I just find the position you've taken tends to lack in empathy to fellow players, something I feel like this community sorely needs sometimes.