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Even better, may a super-heavy make stomp attacks when it's engaged with another super-heavy that cannot be hurt by stomps? And use those to stomp off on another unit?
I don't see anything preventing this. It says that other super-heavies cannot be hurt by stomps, but it doesn't say the attacks cannot be made.
Charistoph wrote: And that is under the assumption that only one unit is hit. Indeed, the process detailed before that states as such.
However, if muiltiple units are involved, the rules change as I have already provided.
Incorrect! Stomp Attacks can only wound multiple units if the units are locked in combat. Are you reading carefully the rules you are quoting? This is the second time I have corrected you on this.
Spoiler:
Directing Attacks In multiple combats, during a model’s Initiative step, the following extra rules apply: ... •A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
You apparently do not realize that Stomp Attacks overwrites that section you highlighted (and a little after) when it states that the blast marker does not need to be placed in base contact with the Stomper, just as much as the Blast and Template rules overwrite the To-Hit rules listed in the Shooting Sequence.
Attacks from a Stomp Attack are determined by first the D3 roll for number, and then by placing the marker where desired, with the restriction that the first be in base contact, and any subsequent marker placements be within 3" of the previous. Hits are factored after that by determining the models underneath, and rolling a 2-5 on said units Stomp results. Once Hits are determined, we go to the To-Wound process, which is not directly changed by the Stomp rules. However, the possibility of multiple units being hit by it takes us to the determinations brought to us by Multiple Combats.
Or to put it another way, the red goes against how the Stomp Rules are stated, while the Green is where it picks up (and a little before, there's a step missing between them that talks about actually Wounding).
Spoiler:
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/13 07:14:05
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Sure Stomp will generate hits on units out of combat, but you cannot allocate wounds to those units per the Fight Sub-phase rules and so those hits are lost.
That is not at all true.
There is not any rule that states what you claim.
Spoiler:
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated before moving on to the next pool of Wounds. Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first. To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows: • A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate, the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to. Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary). • If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty (if necessary). In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit, wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those that are not engaged.
That does not say what you think it says.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Col - the fight sub phase allocation rules only trigger when you are allocating wounds to a unit. Stomp never allocated to a unit, or never even hits a unit. It hits, and wounds, a model. It's similar to gets hot in that regard.
100% this.
axisofentropy wrote: Even better, may a super-heavy make stomp attacks when it's engaged with another super-heavy that cannot be hurt by stomps? And use those to stomp off on another unit?
I don't see anything preventing this. It says that other super-heavies cannot be hurt by stomps, but it doesn't say the attacks cannot be made.
Why wouldn't they be able to?
You can use Stomp attacks when the initiative comes around to use stomp attacks. you just follow the rules for Stomp and if you cover a SHW you dont resolve those hits due to the rules for stomp but you can hit other units as normal.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/13 08:42:09
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nosferatu1001 wrote: Col - the fight sub phase allocation rules only trigger when you are allocating wounds to a unit. Stomp never allocated to a unit, or never even hits a unit. It hits, and wounds, a model. It's similar to gets hot in that regard.
Point to the rules for the To Wound roll and the Wound Allocation rules that we are supposed to use then.
Gets Hot! makes it clear in the rules for Gets Hot! themselves how to handle the wound
Spoiler:
For each roll of a 1, the
weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single
Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) – this Wound cannot be
allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a Look Out, Sir attempt
to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule.
Stomp Attacks make no specification so we are to use rules already provided. So kindly point to them. If there are none to point to then the ones for the Fight Sub-phase are to be used.
Show me how to resolve a 1 on the Perils of the Warp table since the Wound Rules are not in that section.
Your argument is flawed in that GW commonly allows wounding in phases without defining wounding in those phases.. Vector Strike for movement phase as well. Your literal translation fails under context.
Did you read the Perils of the Warp table?
Spoiler:
For Wound allocation purposes, assume the
attack is coming from the Psyker that suffered Perils of the Warp.
Did you read Vector Strike?
Spoiler:
Unless stated otherwise,
Vector Strike hits are resolved at the model’s unmodified Strength and AP2, using
Random Allocation.
Spoiler:
Random Allocation
On occasion, it will be impossible to determine which model is closest to an attack for
Wound allocation purposes, usually because the attack doesn’t originate from an enemy
unit, but from a lethal environmental hazard such as man-eating forests or lightning bolts
lancing down from the sky. If you cannot determine the direction of an attack to
work out which model in a unit is closest, or if a special rule refers to Random
Allocation, do the following: randomly determine a model in the unit – that
model is treated as being the closest model to the attack and remains so until
either the attack ends or the model is slain. For the purposes of determining if the
model is obscured, imagine the attack is coming from directly above its unit. If the model
is slain and there are still Wounds left to allocate, simply randomise again if needs be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charistoph wrote: You apparently do not realize that Stomp Attacks overwrites that section you highlighted (and a little after) when it states that the blast marker does not need to be placed in base contact with the Stomper, just as much as the Blast and Template rules overwrite the To-Hit rules listed in the Shooting Sequence.
Attacks from a Stomp Attack are determined by first the D3 roll for number, and then by placing the marker where desired, with the restriction that the first be in base contact, and any subsequent marker placements be within 3" of the previous. Hits are factored after that by determining the models underneath, and rolling a 2-5 on said units Stomp results. Once Hits are determined, we go to the To-Wound process, which is not directly changed by the Stomp rules. However, the possibility of multiple units being hit by it takes us to the determinations brought to us by Multiple Combats.
Or to put it another way, the red goes against how the Stomp Rules are stated, while the Green is where it picks up (and a little before, there's a step missing between them that talks about actually Wounding).
Spoiler:
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
Stomp only provides rules for generating hits on models, just like the Template rules provide. We still fully adhere to the wound allocation rules in the Fight Sub-phase unless someone here successfully points to some other rules we are to use.
So until someone provides something different than the Fight Sub-phase, these are the wound allocation rules that we use.
Spoiler:
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need
to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If
several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide
in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated
before moving on to the next pool of Wounds.
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in
the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with
the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a
model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate,
the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative
step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If
two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models
being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty
(if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/13 09:38:51
So, what would those rules mean for stomps? If you roll 2-5 on a unit outside of combat, would those hits be lost, or would they just be allocated to models engaged with the IK?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Col - hand waving away the difference between model and unit is crass
You are told that the model is hit, and never the unit. You have no targeting of a unit. You may onky allocate wound that model, nothing else has any permission
Over to you. Show how rules that require a unit target may be used when you have a model target. Page and graph. Precise, cited rules, no hand waving away.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Col - hand waving away the difference between model and unit is crass
You are told that the model is hit, and never the unit. You have no targeting of a unit. You may onky allocate wound that model, nothing else has any permission
Over to you. Show how rules that require a unit target may be used when you have a model target. Page and graph. Precise, cited rules, no hand waving away.
I am not handwaving the difference between model and unit. Any model on the battlefield is in a unit.
Stomp attacks generate hits on models just like Templates do. In the case of Templates, the Shooting rules apply and permit a To Wound Roll,Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
If you are not using the Fight Sub-phase rules in the case of Stomp attacks, then you lack rules permitting a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
The burden is actually on you to provide rules for Stomp attacks that permit a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
So Nosferatu, feel free to point to the rules in the BRB that permit a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds in the case of Stomps. If you are permitting a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds on Stomp hits without rule justification then that sure is one big whomping house rule you got there. I will stick with RAW and please only bug me when you are prepared to discuss RAW.
So, what would those rules mean for stomps? If you roll 2-5 on a unit outside of combat, would those hits be lost, or would they just be allocated to models engaged with the IK?
Those hits would be lost. Rolls of 6 would still be fully effective on a unit outside of combat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/13 17:09:08
nosferatu1001 wrote: Col - hand waving away the difference between model and unit is crass
You are told that the model is hit, and never the unit. You have no targeting of a unit. You may onky allocate wound that model, nothing else has any permission
Over to you. Show how rules that require a unit target may be used when you have a model target. Page and graph. Precise, cited rules, no hand waving away.
I am not handwaving the difference between model and unit. Any model on the battlefield is in a unit.
Stomp attacks generate hits on models just like Templates do. In the case of Templates, the Shooting rules apply and permit a To Wound Roll,Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
If you are not using the Fight Sub-phase rules in the case of Stomp attacks, then you lack rules permitting a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
The burden is actually on you to provide rules for Stomp attacks that permit a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
So Nosferatu, feel free to point to the rules in the BRB that permit a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds in the case of Stomps. If you are permitting a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds on Stomp hits without rule justification then that sure is one big whomping house rule you got there. I will stick with RAW and please only bug me when you are prepared to discuss RAW.
So, what would those rules mean for stomps? If you roll 2-5 on a unit outside of combat, would those hits be lost, or would they just be allocated to models engaged with the IK?
Those hits would be lost. Rolls of 6 would still be fully effective on a unit outside of combat.
Dude you are wrong. Face it. Every single person is telling you that you are wrong.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Yes, all ldeles belong to units. Again, please explain how you can apply rules pertaining to allocating sounds to units to a single model. Page olease, since you're discussing raw supposedly you will be able to back it up with an actual page ref.
I'll "bug you" until you can be bothered to apply the tenets of this forum and back up your argument.
So, can you? Or are you making a huge assumptive leap that because all models are in units, that rules pertaining to units can be applied to models without any text stating so?
nosferatu1001 wrote: Yes, all ldeles belong to units. Again, please explain how you can apply rules pertaining to allocating sounds to units to a single model. Page olease, since you're discussing raw supposedly you will be able to back it up with an actual page ref.
I'll "bug you" until you can be bothered to apply the tenets of this forum and back up your argument.
So, can you? Or are you making a huge assumptive leap that because all models are in units, that rules pertaining to units can be applied to models without any text stating so?
Stomp attacks generate hits on models just like Templates generate hits on models. The rules that we have for Wound Allocation are in the Shooting Sequence rules or in the Fight Sub-phase rules. Templates use the Shooting Sequence rules for wound allocation. Stomp attacks use the Fight Sub-phase rules for wound allocation since the Stomp attack rules provide no other specific alternative to the one that is being provided generally for attacks in close combat that use Initiative steps.
If you know of some more specific alternative than the Fight Sub-phase rules that Stomp attacks are to use for Wound Allocation then feel free to share it. Otherwise, the Fight Sub-phase To Wound Roll, Saves, and Wound Allocation is the only option and the general option the rules provide. Failure on your part to point to a more specific alternative is a concession on your part that the general rules of the Fight Sub-phase are in effect for Stomp attacks.
If you are proceeding to Roll To Wound, apply Saves, and Allocate Wounds by some made up procedure that is no where found in the rules then you are obviously house ruling. That is fine. Just label your suggestion as HYWPI.
So, what would those rules mean for stomps? If you roll 2-5 on a unit outside of combat, would those hits be lost, or would they just be allocated to models engaged with the IK?
Those hits would be lost. Rolls of 6 would still be fully effective on a unit outside of combat.
Sorry if this is a silly question, but why can't they just be allocated to units in combat with the knight?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Charistoph wrote: You apparently do not realize that Stomp Attacks overwrites that section you highlighted (and a little after) when it states that the blast marker does not need to be placed in base contact with the Stomper, just as much as the Blast and Template rules overwrite the To-Hit rules listed in the Shooting Sequence.
Attacks from a Stomp Attack are determined by first the D3 roll for number, and then by placing the marker where desired, with the restriction that the first be in base contact, and any subsequent marker placements be within 3" of the previous. Hits are factored after that by determining the models underneath, and rolling a 2-5 on said units Stomp results. Once Hits are determined, we go to the To-Wound process, which is not directly changed by the Stomp rules. However, the possibility of multiple units being hit by it takes us to the determinations brought to us by Multiple Combats.
Or to put it another way, the red goes against how the Stomp Rules are stated, while the Green is where it picks up (and a little before, there's a step missing between them that talks about actually Wounding).
Spoiler:
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
Stomp only provides rules for generating hits on models, just like the Template rules provide. We still fully adhere to the wound allocation rules in the Fight Sub-phase unless someone here successfully points to some other rules we are to use.
Right, and just like the Template and Blast rules, if a unit other than the target is hit, those hits are processed against the units hit. Stomp changes none of this. Fight Sub-Phase Rules do not change this if one takes in to account the Multiple Combat rules. Remember, your counterargument for this quote.
col_impact wrote:So until someone provides something different than the Fight Sub-phase, these are the wound allocation rules that we use.
Spoiler:
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need
to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If
several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide
in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated
before moving on to the next pool of Wounds.
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in
the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with
the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a
model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate,
the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative
step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If
two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models
being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty
(if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged.
That's one way to ignore Fight Sub-Phase for Multiple Combats. Because if you recognize the Attacks can hit units not Engaged with the Stomper (and there is no argument tos support they cannot), than you must recognize the changes that Multiple Combats rules provide just as much as being Charged by another unit after Charging a first.
So, no, Wounds do not just transfer from one unit to another, nor do they just disappear because they are "out of range".
nosferatu1001 wrote:Col - hand waving away the difference between model and unit is crass
You are told that the model is hit, and never the unit. You have no targeting of a unit. You may onky allocate wound that model, nothing else has any permission
Over to you. Show how rules that require a unit target may be used when you have a model target. Page and graph. Precise, cited rules, no hand waving away.
Actually, I pointed them out in General Principles. Units take the hits for models covered by the blast marker. It makes no note as to which type of Attack the maker is generated from. Look it up at the beginning under Blast Markers and Templates. It is in bold, so hard to miss.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
If you are not using the Fight Sub-phase rules in the case of Stomp attacks, then you lack rules permitting a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
The burden is actually on you to provide rules for Stomp attacks that permit a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
Show the rules from the Psychic and Movement phases. Which page are those charts on ? You haven't provide that yet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/14 02:20:29
If you are not using the Fight Sub-phase rules in the case of Stomp attacks, then you lack rules permitting a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
The burden is actually on you to provide rules for Stomp attacks that permit a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
Show the rules from the Psychic and Movement phases. Which page are those charts on ? You haven't provide that yet.
Not needed. I have already shown you that 1 for Perils of the Warp and Vector Strike specify how to allocate wounds in their rules. Please take note of what I show you.
Fragile wrote: Your response had nothing. You are obviously confused about the rules.
You are now just being intentionally obtuse.
Don't bug me until you are ready to actively participate in the RAW discussion and have read and are prepared to respond in a constructive manner to what I already showed you.
For Wound allocation purposes, assume the
attack is coming from the Psyker that suffered Perils of the Warp.
This rule gives the direction the attack is coming from. It has nothing to do with how to allocate the S6 AP1 wounds. Show me a chart to figure out whether the unit is wounded or not.
Did you read Vector Strike?
Spoiler:
Unless stated otherwise,
Vector Strike hits are resolved at the model’s unmodified Strength and AP2, using
Random Allocation.
Again, your told to use a Strength characteristic and an AP, but no chart in the Movement Phase to figure out whether the target unit is wounded. Looks like that Flying Hive Tyrant cannot hurt anything by flying over it.
Spoiler:
Random Allocation
On occasion, it will be impossible to determine which model is closest to an attack for
Wound allocation purposes, usually because the attack doesn’t originate from an enemy
unit, but from a lethal environmental hazard such as man-eating forests or lightning bolts
lancing down from the sky. If you cannot determine the direction of an attack to
work out which model in a unit is closest, or if a special rule refers to Random
Allocation, do the following: randomly determine a model in the unit – that
model is treated as being the closest model to the attack and remains so until
either the attack ends or the model is slain. For the purposes of determining if the
model is obscured, imagine the attack is coming from directly above its unit. If the model
is slain and there are still Wounds left to allocate, simply randomise again if needs be.
Again, your confused. We are not talking about Where the attack comes from. That is for allocating wounds. You still have not shown a rule to generate a wound pool in the Psychic or Movement Phases. Only Shooting and Assault phases have those.
So until you find a chart to generate a wound pool, you are wrong.
Charistoph wrote: You apparently do not realize that Stomp Attacks overwrites that section you highlighted (and a little after) when it states that the blast marker does not need to be placed in base contact with the Stomper, just as much as the Blast and Template rules overwrite the To-Hit rules listed in the Shooting Sequence.
Attacks from a Stomp Attack are determined by first the D3 roll for number, and then by placing the marker where desired, with the restriction that the first be in base contact, and any subsequent marker placements be within 3" of the previous. Hits are factored after that by determining the models underneath, and rolling a 2-5 on said units Stomp results. Once Hits are determined, we go to the To-Wound process, which is not directly changed by the Stomp rules. However, the possibility of multiple units being hit by it takes us to the determinations brought to us by Multiple Combats.
Or to put it another way, the red goes against how the Stomp Rules are stated, while the Green is where it picks up (and a little before, there's a step missing between them that talks about actually Wounding).
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
Stomp only provides rules for generating hits on models, just like the Template rules provide. We still fully adhere to the wound allocation rules in the Fight Sub-phase unless someone here successfully points to some other rules we are to use.
Right, and just like the Template and Blast rules, if a unit other than the target is hit, those hits are processed against the units hit. Stomp changes none of this. Fight Sub-Phase Rules do not change this if one takes in to account the Multiple Combat rules. Remember, your counterargument for this quote.
col_impact wrote:So until someone provides something different than the Fight Sub-phase, these are the wound allocation rules that we use.
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need
to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If
several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide
in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated
before moving on to the next pool of Wounds.
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in
the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with
the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a
model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate,
the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative
step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If
two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models
being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty
(if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged.
That's one way to ignore Fight Sub-Phase for Multiple Combats. Because if you recognize the Attacks can hit units not Engaged with the Stomper (and there is no argument tos support they cannot), than you must recognize the changes that Multiple Combats rules provide just as much as being Charged by another unit after Charging a first.
So, no, Wounds do not just transfer from one unit to another, nor do they just disappear because they are "out of range".
nosferatu1001 wrote:Col - hand waving away the difference between model and unit is crass
You are told that the model is hit, and never the unit. You have no targeting of a unit. You may onky allocate wound that model, nothing else has any permission
Over to you. Show how rules that require a unit target may be used when you have a model target. Page and graph. Precise, cited rules, no hand waving away.
Actually, I pointed them out in General Principles. Units take the hits for models covered by the blast marker. It makes no note as to which type of Attack the maker is generated from. Look it up at the beginning under Blast Markers and Templates. It is in bold, so hard to miss.
Templates and Stomp attacks may be able to generate hits on units that are not the target unit but that does not mean that wounds will be allocated. Templates and Stomp attacks still have to abide by the restrictions of wound allocation.
The Shooting Sequence rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated on models that are "out of range" (does not apply in the case of Template since the Template is the range) or "out of sight". For shooting you cannot wound what you cannot reach and/or what you cannot see.
The Fight Sub-phase rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated onto models that are not locked in combat.
Stomp attacks can allocate wounds to multiple units but each of these has to be locked in combat with the stomping GMC.
For Wound allocation purposes, assume the
attack is coming from the Psyker that suffered Perils of the Warp.
This rule gives the direction the attack is coming from. It has nothing to do with how to allocate the S6 AP1 wounds. Show me a chart to figure out whether the unit is wounded or not.
Did you read Vector Strike?
Spoiler:
Unless stated otherwise,
Vector Strike hits are resolved at the model’s unmodified Strength and AP2, using
Random Allocation.
Again, your told to use a Strength characteristic and an AP, but no chart in the Movement Phase to figure out whether the target unit is wounded. Looks like that Flying Hive Tyrant cannot hurt anything by flying over it.
Spoiler:
Random Allocation
On occasion, it will be impossible to determine which model is closest to an attack for
Wound allocation purposes, usually because the attack doesn’t originate from an enemy
unit, but from a lethal environmental hazard such as man-eating forests or lightning bolts
lancing down from the sky. If you cannot determine the direction of an attack to
work out which model in a unit is closest, or if a special rule refers to Random
Allocation, do the following: randomly determine a model in the unit – that
model is treated as being the closest model to the attack and remains so until
either the attack ends or the model is slain. For the purposes of determining if the
model is obscured, imagine the attack is coming from directly above its unit. If the model
is slain and there are still Wounds left to allocate, simply randomise again if needs be.
Again, your confused. We are not talking about Where the attack comes from. That is for allocating wounds. You still have not shown a rule to generate a wound pool in the Psychic or Movement Phases. Only Shooting and Assault phases have those.
So until you find a chart to generate a wound pool, you are wrong.
Both of those rules point to explicit permission for Wound Allocation to happen. Wound Allocation rules exist in 2 places in the BRB - in the context of the Shooting Sequence and in the context of the Fight Sub-phase. So the rules give explicit permission to access one of those sections directly to do Wound Allocation. The player is not explicitly told which of the two Wound Allocation rules to use. The Psychic phase rules indicate that it models itself after shooting so they very strongly 'hint' to use the Wound Allocation rules in the Shooting Sequence and Vector Strike/Random Allocation similarly 'hints' to use the Wound Allocation in the Shooting Sequence.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/14 04:37:30
col_impact wrote: Templates and Stomp attacks may be able to generate hits on units that are not the target unit but that does not mean that wounds will be allocated. Templates and Stomp attacks still have to abide by the restrictions of wound allocation.
Already addressed under the auspices of Multiple Combat. Unless you can prove that this is NOT a case of Multiple Combat?
Let's see, what is the description of that again?
Spoiler:
Combats that involve more than two units are called multiple combats (see the diagram opposite for an example). These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units, or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat. Because of the extra complexity, they need some additional rules.
So, Stomps Attacks hitting multiple units will be involving more than two units, and so follow their rules.
col_impact wrote: The Shooting Sequence rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated on models that are "out of range" (does not apply in the case of Template since the Template is the range) or "out of sight". For shooting you cannot wound what you cannot reach and/or what you cannot see.
There is no pertinence to the discussion in this, really. Stomps are not Shooting Attacks, nor part of the Shooting Phase.
col_impact wrote: The Fight Sub-phase rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated onto models that are not locked in combat.
Stomp attacks can allocate wounds to multiple units but each of these has to be locked in combat with the stomping GMC.
Only if you ignore Multiple Combat rules:
Spoiler:
A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect).
The highlighted part is what is pertinent at this point. The previous portion of allocating Attacks is taken care of with Stomp's rules with the Blast Marker.
And no, Wounds are never tossed out for being outside of the initial target's scope. Attacks and hits might be, but that is resolved before the actual Wounding process. The only time Wounds are tossed in the Fight sub-Phase is if there is nothing left to Wound (or datasheet rule specifically stating such).
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
col_impact wrote: Templates and Stomp attacks may be able to generate hits on units that are not the target unit but that does not mean that wounds will be allocated. Templates and Stomp attacks still have to abide by the restrictions of wound allocation.
Already addressed under the auspices of Multiple Combat. Unless you can prove that this is NOT a case of Multiple Combat?
Let's see, what is the description of that again?
Combats that involve more than two units are called multiple combats (see the diagram opposite for an example). These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units, or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat. Because of the extra complexity, they need some additional rules.
So, Stomps Attacks hitting multiple units will be involving more than two units, and so follow their rules.
col_impact wrote: The Shooting Sequence rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated on models that are "out of range" (does not apply in the case of Template since the Template is the range) or "out of sight". For shooting you cannot wound what you cannot reach and/or what you cannot see.
There is no pertinence to the discussion in this, really. Stomps are not Shooting Attacks, nor part of the Shooting Phase.
col_impact wrote: The Fight Sub-phase rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated onto models that are not locked in combat.
Stomp attacks can allocate wounds to multiple units but each of these has to be locked in combat with the stomping GMC.
Only if you ignore Multiple Combat rules:
A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect).
The highlighted part is what is pertinent at this point. The previous portion of allocating Attacks is taken care of with Stomp's rules with the Blast Marker.
And no, Wounds are never tossed out for being outside of the initial target's scope. Attacks and hits might be, but that is resolved before the actual Wounding process. The only time Wounds are tossed in the Fight sub-Phase is if there is nothing left to Wound (or datasheet rule specifically stating such).
Please identify and make clear what case you are talking about.
If a GMC is locked in combat with multiple units there is no question that Stomp attacks can allocate wounds to all of those units.
However, the Fight Sub-phase rules do not allow a GMC to allocate wounds to a unit that it is not locked in combat with.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/14 06:15:28
col_impact wrote: Templates and Stomp attacks may be able to generate hits on units that are not the target unit but that does not mean that wounds will be allocated. Templates and Stomp attacks still have to abide by the restrictions of wound allocation.
Already addressed under the auspices of Multiple Combat. Unless you can prove that this is NOT a case of Multiple Combat?
Let's see, what is the description of that again?
Combats that involve more than two units are called multiple combats (see the diagram opposite for an example). These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units, or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat. Because of the extra complexity, they need some additional rules.
So, Stomps Attacks hitting multiple units will be involving more than two units, and so follow their rules.
col_impact wrote: The Shooting Sequence rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated on models that are "out of range" (does not apply in the case of Template since the Template is the range) or "out of sight". For shooting you cannot wound what you cannot reach and/or what you cannot see.
There is no pertinence to the discussion in this, really. Stomps are not Shooting Attacks, nor part of the Shooting Phase.
col_impact wrote: The Fight Sub-phase rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated onto models that are not locked in combat.
Stomp attacks can allocate wounds to multiple units but each of these has to be locked in combat with the stomping GMC.
Only if you ignore Multiple Combat rules:
A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect).
The highlighted part is what is pertinent at this point. The previous portion of allocating Attacks is taken care of with Stomp's rules with the Blast Marker.
And no, Wounds are never tossed out for being outside of the initial target's scope. Attacks and hits might be, but that is resolved before the actual Wounding process. The only time Wounds are tossed in the Fight sub-Phase is if there is nothing left to Wound (or datasheet rule specifically stating such).
Please identify and make clear what case you are talking about.
If a GMC is locked in combat with multiple units there is no question that Stomp attacks can allocate wounds to all of those units.
However, the Fight Sub-phase rules do not allow a GMC to allocate wounds to a unit that it is not locked in combat with.
I love how you are stuck on this one point when it has been explained to you multipole time already.
You also skip over rebutting every single example given to you.
col_impact wrote: Please identify and make clear what case you are talking about.
If a GMC is locked in combat with multiple units there is no question that Stomp attacks can allocate wounds to all of those units.
However, the Fight Sub-phase rules do not allow a GMC to allocate wounds to a unit that it is not locked in combat with.
Incorrect. I have already explained this and you have nothing to support it without adding rules and ignoring a set of the rules.
Normally, the Fight Sub-Phase does not allow a Stomper to allocate Attacks to a unit that it is not locked in combat with. No Attacks hitting a unit, not Wounds.
However, the Stomp rules ignore the Fight Sub-Phase's rules in allocating Attacks. Indeed, there is nothing that requires the Blast Marker to stay in base contact with the Stomper nor require it only be placed over models they are Engaged with. For a Stomp Attack to hit, you place the Blast Marker in base contact, and you don't even have to place it on the unit you are Engaged with! Then you place any further Markers within 3" of the one before. This can cause the Stomp Attack to hit units the Stomper is not Engaged with and even units that are not Engaged at all.
These are calculated as hits in the Assault Phase, and more specifically, the Fight Sub-Phase. And if the Attacks manage to hit another unit, that unit can easily be said to be involved in that combat. Queue the Multiple Conflicts definition:
Spoiler:
Combats that involve more than two units are called multiple combats (see the diagram opposite for an example). These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units, or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat. Because of the extra complexity, they need some additional rules.
So we have the Stomper, the unit the Stomper is Engaged with that allows the Stomp Attacks to occur, and any units that have been hit by the Stomp Attack. Having established this, we continue with the Stomps rules. Now, for sake of the discussion applying to the situation we're going to assume that 3 units have been hit, and all receive a 2-5 result on the Stomp chart. 1 basically ignores the Attack, and 6 just removes models without Wounding, meaning both are pointless for the discussion at hand. Unit 1 is Engaged with the Stomper, Unit 2 is right behind them, but not fighting anyone, and Unit 3 is even further back fighting someone else.
So, the 3 units receive attempts to Wound them with Str 6, AP 4, based on how many models were under the base. Unit 1 gets 1 Wound, Unit 2 gets 2 Wounds, and Unit 3 gets unlucky with 3 Wounds. So, we look at how we are supposed to allocate them:
Spoiler:
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate, the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to. Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty (if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit, wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those that are not engaged....
Spoiler:
Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect).
So, the Wounds get Save attempts with the ones in Base Contact first, and then they go one to the nearest to the Stomper, but only for the units that still have Wound Pools on them. Unit 1 attempts 1 Save, and it would be one in base contact if Unit 1 is Engaged with the Stomper. Unit 2 would then attempt 2 Saves, starting with the model nearest the Stomper. Unit 3 would then attempt 3 Saves, starting with the model nearest the Stomper, even though they are Engaged in another Combat that may even be on its other side.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
"These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units..."
Nope.
"..., or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat."
Also no.
Those are the only two instances in which you are permitted to use the rules for multiple combats. Since neither apply, you cannot use the rules for multiple combats.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/14 09:31:09
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
vipoid wrote: How are you using the multiple combats rules?
"These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units..."
Nope.
"..., or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat."
Also no.
Those are the only two instances in which you are permitted to use the rules for multiple combats. Since neither apply, you cannot use the rules for multiple combats.
"Combats that involve more than two units are called multiple combats (see the diagram opposite for an example)."
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Except that two criteria are provided for how that can occur, and a knight stomping out of combat meets neither of them.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
vipoid wrote: Except that two criteria are provided for how that can occur, and a knight stomping out of combat meets neither of them.
But they are not restricted to only them
Yes they are. It is an exhaustive list. There is no leeway given for alternate/similar situations.
Again, there are exactly two scenarios specified, and if neither are applicable than you are not permitted to use the Multiple Combats rule.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
vipoid wrote: Except that two criteria are provided for how that can occur, and a knight stomping out of combat meets neither of them.
But they are not restricted to only them
Yes they are. It is an exhaustive list. There is no leeway given for alternate/similar situations.
Again, there are exactly two scenarios specified, and if neither are applicable than you are not permitted to use the Multiple Combats rule.
So it doesn't happen when another unit does not Charge? Such as the turn following the last unit Charged? An exhaustive list would be one that gave no leeway, such as "are only considered during x events". It just states when it occurs under normal circumstances, and does not forbid other circumstances from occuring.
The only practicable solution is that Stomp overrides this conflict due to its ability to involve others in the Fight than what are Engaged, unless you can point out how the Stomp cannot affect those unEngaged with the Stomper.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/14 16:27:34
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2500 
2200 