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Preds are useful insofar as they are cheap, have long range and are durable. Those three qualities make them decent backfield objective babysitters. DECENT, mind you - not GREAT.

I think people give Vindies way too hard a time. I was able to make good use of regular SM Vindies in the past (before they got the squadron bonus in the current SM book), and those are way harder to make work properly than BA Vindies. Much like Preds, they aren't great, but they're decent enough.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
Preds are useful insofar as they are cheap, have long range and are durable. Those three qualities make them decent backfield objective babysitters. DECENT, mind you - not GREAT.

I think people give Vindies way too hard a time. I was able to make good use of regular SM Vindies in the past (before they got the squadron bonus in the current SM book), and those are way harder to make work properly than BA Vindies. Much like Preds, they aren't great, but they're decent enough.

AV 11 sides when the vehicle facing table has a HUGE angle for sides is such a critical flaw.

Predators aren't that cheap, imo. And when they fire, nothing happens. Very disappointing.

AV 11 sides isn't really that bad on the Pred. It's more of an issue for the Vindi, but outside of fighting Eldar, you should be able to manage to mitigate some or all of the problem by working with your speed and cover to limit what can shoot at your sides.

As for cost, well its true that they aren't exactly super-competitively priced, but again, I said they were decent, not great.

6 of us are playing this Wednesday at the club in a single, large battle.

One side will field 2 Chaos armies and a single Dark Angels army (the bad guys).

I'm using my Blood Angels, of course, along with another, more experienced BA player, and finally a player using Orks.

Each player is taking 1,000 points each, so that's 3,000 point per side.

My force will consist of:

HQ
1 Chaplain with JP, Crozius & Inferno pistol

ELITES
5 Death Company (JP, 1 powerfist, 1 power sword, 2 inferno pistols, 1 plasma pistol)
1 Furioso Dreadnought with Blood Talons (Meltagun & Heavy flamer).

TROOPS
5 Tactical Marines (Sgt with Storm bolter, Marine with Heavy Flamer) Rhino
5 Tactical Marines (Sgt with Storm bolter, Marine with Heavy Flamer) Rhino

FAST ATTACK
5 Assault Marines with JP (1 power Axe, 1 Hand flamer, 1 Meltagun)

HEAVY SUPPORT
5 Devastators (2 Missile Launchers, 2 Plasma Cannons).

The plan is to use the tactical marines to rush forward, get out and hose the enemy with fire just before both the Death Company and Assault Squad go in. The Furioso will harass and deal with any threats that break through the line, while the Devastators will provide fire support and thin the herd.

I did previously plan to use my tactical troops more offensively (CC) and equip both Sergeants with power weapons and inferno pistols, or similar. But that would mean I can't shoot with any of the bolters before charging, which seems a waste. So I've opted to use them as a rapidly-moving firebase (Overcharged rhinos), with the bolters hopefully close enough to fire twice and both Heavy Flamers close enough to engulf the enemy in fire. Both Sergeants now have storm bolters to make them slightly more effective at range.

Death Company and Assault Squad will be my dedicated assaulting troops.

Devastators can deal with both troops and armour.

The Furioso will be my roaming asset and will deal with threats accordingly, as long as they're close enough. At worst it'll act as a bullet magnet, taking the strain off both the DC and Assault squad.

Don't mix devastator weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
Don't mix devastator weapons.

I mostly agree with this. In the case of the devastators, missile launcher and plasma cannons don't really work together. They both serve two different roles and also have different ranges so you are only going to be able to fire half of those weapons when outside of 36" range.

If you do mix them, then they should share a common task, i.e. anti infantry or anti tank. For example, on the rare occasion that I have used devastators (in my Dark Angels force, not Blood Angels) I have had good success when using 2 heavy bolters with 2 plasma cannons. Both are of the same range and are anti infantry - the heavy bolters mop up what the plasma cannons leave, i.e. one or two models that survived the plasma blasts then have to make all those saves from heavy bolter shots.

Actually, I wouldn't use devastators at all. But it sounds like the OP is doing it anyway.

ha ha, that is true. They just don't really fit in with Blood Angels (or any marine army some would argue). They are too static and die too easily.

I personally would drop the devastators and bring a couple of landspeeders. I'm a huge fan of the typhoon. It has good movement, decent range on the missile launcher and can generally cause a nuisance if used correctly. I take them every time and have them right at the back out of harms way picking things off and zooming about. If my opponent goes for them then at least they aren't shooting at my more expensive stuff. If they get ignored then they can pick stuff off. Even if the really cheap speeders with a single multi melta or stock heavy bolter are taken, they will probably do more damage than those devastators, you could have a load of them for the price of four dudes with heavy guns.

A typhoon speeder can move 12" and still fire its heavy bolter and typhoon launcher. The typhoon launcher allows it to stay out of the range of many Xeno weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
A typhoon speeder can move 12" and still fire its heavy bolter and typhoon launcher. The typhoon launcher allows it to stay out of the range of many Xeno weapons.

Definitely. In an army that is below par compared to the others out there, it is one of the few/only units that are worth their points.

 Slaphead wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
A typhoon speeder can move 12" and still fire its heavy bolter and typhoon launcher. The typhoon launcher allows it to stay out of the range of many Xeno weapons.

Definitely. In an army that is below par compared to the others out there, it is one of the few/only units that are worth their points.

Vanilla marines have them, too, of course. And their effectiveness is really an artifact of lascannons and melta being junked for anti-tank work. Six krak missiles a turn is pretty good for hping stuff out, which is what the game is about now.

OP - swap that devastator squad for two landspeeders with typhoon missile launchers. Keep them sat back and shooting things at a distance. You should find them a lot more effective than those devastators. Plus with their movement, if either of them are alive still on turn 5 then you can zoom them across the table for a cheeky last minute objective grab

 Slaphead wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't mix devastator weapons.

I mostly agree with this. In the case of the devastators, missile launcher and plasma cannons don't really work together. They both serve two different roles and also have different ranges so you are only going to be able to fire half of those weapons when outside of 36" range.

If you do mix them, then they should share a common task, i.e. anti infantry or anti tank. For example, on the rare occasion that I have used devastators (in my Dark Angels force, not Blood Angels) I have had good success when using 2 heavy bolters with 2 plasma cannons. Both are of the same range and are anti infantry - the heavy bolters mop up what the plasma cannons leave, i.e. one or two models that survived the plasma blasts then have to make all those saves from heavy bolter shots.

Yep, I'm sticking with Devastators until I have something more useful. Currently, my wallet screams out in pain every time I browse the Forge world site, so I won't be buying from there anytime soon.

I know I'm not supposed to mix Devastators. Much like crossing the streams in Ghostbusters, things can go horribly wrong. But I'm never going to field 4 Plasma Cannons. That's just asking for trouble. I did it once before and lost 3 of them when they decided to end it all amid a cloud of superheated plasma.

For me I have three reasons for mixing my Devastators:

1. I don't have 16 Devastator models that would allow me to field a complete squad of each of the Devastator weapons accordingly
2. points cost. Sometimes I need both long range armour penetration and short range horde dispersal but lack the points to do so with two separate squads.
3. Some weapons, depending on the ranges involved, work well together.

Land speeders aren't forge world. You can buy 3rd party missile pods for conversion bits.

You are better off taking no heavy support at all than mixed devastators, imo. I have several BA lists with no heavy support slots used at all.

Seconded. Landspeeder kits are not Forgeworld. They are in fact one of the cheaper kits that GW sell and come with all the bits you need. They can be bought for £11 something off darksphere and other online retailers. You can even get them cheap off eBay or as Martel says, get 3rd party missile pods if your second hand one doesn't come with them.

If you're adamant on fielding devastators then you might be ok if you can get them hidden behind some decent ruins/terrain before getting shot at.


Anyhow, best of luck and post how you get on

 Slaphead wrote:
Seconded. Landspeeder kits are not Forgeworld. They are in fact one of the cheaper kits that GW sell and come with all the bits you need. They can be bought for £11 something off darksphere and other online retailers. You can even get them cheap off eBay or as Martel says, get 3rd party missile pods if your second hand one doesn't come with them.

If you're adamant on fielding devastators then you might be ok if you can get them hidden behind some decent ruins/terrain before getting shot at.


Anyhow, best of luck and post how you get on

Thanks!

I know land Speeders aren't FW only models. I was referring to other, more effective means of delivering firepower that FW offer. I currently don't have any Land Speeders. I'm still building up my Battle Company. I will be adding Land Raiders and Predators at some point. I'm planning on fielding a LR Crusader with 15 Death Company inside it, led by a Chaplain. Whoot! But that's later on this year.

Predators, then Land Raiders, and then eventually two or three Land Speeders.

Actually, I have a question regarding Land Speeders. Can Blood Angels field 3 LS in a Squadron? If they can this would my life a lot easier, instead of taking up multiple FA slots.

With Devastators, I always stick them in cover. Luckily, my opponent usually has other concerns instead of firing at my Devastators, such as a squad of Death Company or a bright red dreadnought, lumbering around the battlefield. They both make for tempting targets, and both are speeding towards them as fast as they can. But in every game I've used them, I've always been able to stick them in a building and utilize the cover save.

I do appreciate the feedback and the advice, and I know some of you may be wondering why doesn't he just field this or that unit, as suggested. But I'm keen to experiment with units that might seem unconventional and counterintuitive.

The cover save doesn't usually matter. The ba don't really have anything that distracts or scares a good player. That's kind of their problem. Even if people ignore your devs, devs don't have good firepower anyway and suffer los issues.

Don't get a land raider. They are severely overcosted. And a squad of 15 dc is overkill. Get the speeders first. They are more useful.

I run a ten man squad of DC. 1 with bolter and PF, 4 with PW, and 5 that are standard. It does really well and the standard guys are usually pulled off the table first as they are my front line.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
I run a ten man squad of DC. 1 with bolter and PF, 4 with PW, and 5 that are standard. It does really well and the standard guys are usually pulled off the table first as they are my front line.

I find that 2X PF 8X normal guys is more cost effective.

Martel732 wrote:
The cover save doesn't usually matter. The ba don't really have anything that distracts or scares a good player. That's kind of their problem. Even if people ignore your devs, devs don't have good firepower anyway and suffer los issues.

Don't get a land raider. They are severely overcosted. And a squad of 15 dc is overkill. Get the speeders first. They are more useful.

Thinking of using Land Speeders for a forthcoming campaign.

The land raider would be for 3,000 + point battles.

I'll be expanding my DC as well in the near future.

The raider is even worse at high points, since it will last less time on the field.

Martel732 wrote:
The raider is even worse at high points, since it will last less time on the field.

It'll be used as a glorified Rhino, in urban terrain. I'm considering two more, but those will contain assault terminators and a Libby Termy and Priest/captain termy respectively.

 Flugel Meister wrote:


Actually, I have a question regarding Land Speeders. Can Blood Angels field 3 LS in a Squadron? If they can this would my life a lot easier, instead of taking up multiple FA slots.

Yes, they can be fielded in a squadron. That is what I do whenever I field my Blood Angels. They are usually one of the first things I put down on my list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flugel Meister wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The raider is even worse at high points, since it will last less time on the field.

It'll be used as a glorified Rhino, in urban terrain. I'm considering two more, but those will contain assault terminators and a Libby Termy and Priest/captain termy respectively.

An alternative could be to have those terminators assaulting out of a Stormraven. I've had mixed experiences with land raiders, but the Stormraven delivery seems to yield the better results for me in comparison. One issue I have come across in the times I fielded a landraider was its speed, it just felt like I was constantly trying to play catch up with it across the table. Whereas the Stormraven gives you much more maneuverability and speed - plus you can have a furioso or DC dread hanging off the back of it which I have found to be a decent enough delivery method for them. A lot of people don't like them, but I do. With the right opponent, having two of them with an assault unit (DC, termies, assault marines) in and dreads hanging off the back can be quite effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flugel Meister wrote:


I do appreciate the feedback and the advice, and I know some of you may be wondering why doesn't he just field this or that unit, as suggested. But I'm keen to experiment with units that might seem unconventional and counterintuitive.

Well said Sir. Completely agree. We play Blood Angels because we like the army. If we wanted to be competitive we would play Eldar, Tau or Necrons

 Flugel Meister wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The raider is even worse at high points, since it will last less time on the field.

It'll be used as a glorified Rhino, in urban terrain. I'm considering two more, but those will contain assault terminators and a Libby Termy and Priest/captain termy respectively.

You should go ahead and buy a land raider. Just do it...it's cool and we all pretty much have one. Just know that at some point you'll stop using it in many of your lists. It's big and cool, but one can only stomach watching 250pts go up in smoke from one melta shot (not to mention the hammer unit inside being stranded in his deployment zone) so many times before finding other ways to spend those points.

Forget melta. Try haywire or D weapons. Melta has to roll a 5+ now, so it's about as likely to hp it out first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Well said Sir. Completely agree. We play Blood Angels because we like the army. If we wanted to be competitive we would play Eldar, Tau or Necrons"

Then what's the point of asking advice? Just field the coolest looking thing.

I do like the idea of using Stormravens, each carrying a supporting Furioso to provide added punch to the Terminators, or using Death Company instead with a pair of Furioso's.

How many Terminators can a Stormraven carry? And I presume they can assault in the same turn they jump out of the SR.

The club organizes large scale battles every now and then. 3,500 points per player, on a twenty foot table. The terrain is usually urban, so a trio of Land Raiders might even make it across the battlefield. However, as they don't benefit from Overcharged Engines (pity) it would take a while.

So Stormravens would definitely be a better choice in that case. I could be adventurous and see if I can field 3 of them, 2 with assault terminators and the remaining one with Death Company. All 3 would carry Furioso's. I could even use land Speeders to support the attack.

I'm still determined to utilize Devastators. Unlike a Predator or Vindicator they can be deployed in an elevated position (in a building). But obviously it'll come don to the layout of the terrain, what the enemy has, and what weapons I choose.

A storm Raven can carry 12 models, or 6 bulky models (such as Terminators), including specifically denoting it can carry models wearing jump packs, which are also bulky.

You can assault out of a storm raven, but in order to do so, the storm raven must only move 6" (no further) in the movement phase while in Hover mode, meaning you'll have to come in out of reserve on turn 2 (at the earliest) in either Zooming or Hover mode, (zooming being the obvious choice as it makes the Storm Raven harder to hit) and then on turn three, transition to hover mode, move up to 6" and then let the models inside deploy out (another 6" of deployment movement in this instance) and then assault 2D6".

If you move over 6" in hover mode or in zooming mode (which you have to, as minimum distance for a zooming flyer is 18") you can still deploy using the Skies of Fury rule inherent with the Storm Raven, but you cannot assault despite the fact that it is an assault vehicle per the Skies of Fury rule.

The only way I can think of to get the Storm Raven on the board faster is to spend 80 points on a Sky Shield Landing Pad (which is not an inexpensive kit $$ wise either) with the Ready For Take Off upgrade, which will allow you to start one flyer on the Skyshield on turn 1. It does also give you a place to deploy your Devastators that gives them a 4+ invulnerable save too, which is nice.

Storm Ravens are fun vehicles, I'm looking forward to picking one up in the future.

Just offering my thoughts on that. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

What is viable is very meta dependant. In my meta, a random BA list has a good chance against a random Eldar list. But in other metas, even the best BA list will struggle against the lower end lists.

If you've had some success, with what you've been using, then its probably a fairly casual meta. Aim to improve your list incrementally instead of flat out replacing it with a netlist.

In a very competitive/cheesy meta, you might have trouble getting devs to do work, but in anything less, they can be quite effective. A dev squad (or two) make a reasonable firebase that the opponent should need to concern himself with in your mid/backfield. Working in concert with your Tacs, it can do good work against a lot of "reasonable" lists.

I often Combat Squad mine (I like sqads of 10 and ablative wounds, but 5-mans can be more competitive) and have them hold a pair of points in the backfield. They won't stop a dedicated force (such as a WK or podded full Tac squad), but will stop/hold most skirmishers (Hawks, 5-man ASMs, etc), while throwing shots downfield.

A pair (or 4) Lascannon shots may not end the average Land Raider, but you should get a pen or two on heavy armor from good range. And often, in less competitive metas, a pen is enough to allow you to focus on something else.

A lascannon pen can also immobilize the LR, which is as good as killing it. MCs, however, will laugh at your lascannons as it will take you all game to kill one with your devs.

(2/3)hit * (5/6) wound * (2/3) failed invuln, typically.

That's (20/56) wounds/shot/round. So with 4, that's 80/56 wounds/round (plus some from boltguns/kraks if close). Not great vs MC spam, but some assistance.

So MCs aren't your optimal target, but they do help. If your opponent has 1 or 2 big MCs amongst infantry, with no vehicles, it can certainly help (what, 2-4 rounds of shooting vs average MCs before they punch you in the face?). But not the right tool vs MC spam.

ASM/Tac/Dev -heavy lists I've always felt struggled with MC spam.