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Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
It also depends on if you bring them to bear to Malta a vehicle, or if you bring them to bully, and the melts is just there to spook their vehicles.

No one who is any good is spooked by meltas. Math, yo. Meltas have been defanged. The only real reason to take them is to pray for 5+ for Imperial knights. And you can assault after firing them. The fact that MCs just shrug off melta like it's nothing really hurts them too.

Sorry...what? Most MC's are tough 6. Most cant handle AP 1. So what are you saying? Shrug it off? I don't understand this comment.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
It also depends on if you bring them to bear to Malta a vehicle, or if you bring them to bully, and the melts is just there to spook their vehicles.

No one who is any good is spooked by meltas. Math, yo. Meltas have been defanged. The only real reason to take them is to pray for 5+ for Imperial knights. And you can assault after firing them. The fact that MCs just shrug off melta like it's nothing really hurts them too.

Sorry...what? Most MC's are tough 6. Most cant handle AP 1. So what are you saying? Shrug it off? I don't understand this comment.

I’m pretty sure his main issue is rate of fire. Sure, you get close, and melta a wound off a MC. Assuming it doesn’t have an invuln or some other way to ignore it. It’s got more wounds, so is still working at 100%. It then deletes one of your squads. Your turn, you strip another wound off. It might be half dead at this point, but still deletes another one of your units.

Melta can work to kill MCs, just not very fast. And considering the range you need to be in, and the general lethality of MCs, it’s not a particularly good tool for the job.

well clearly you dont bring just one melta. And once its gone, your melta spamming has a highly desirous effect when coupled with your bolters. So i think its a matter of bringing massive firepower to the point of attack and employing the overkill rule: No kill is like Overkill.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
It also depends on if you bring them to bear to Malta a vehicle, or if you bring them to bully, and the melts is just there to spook their vehicles.

No one who is any good is spooked by meltas. Math, yo. Meltas have been defanged. The only real reason to take them is to pray for 5+ for Imperial knights. And you can assault after firing them. The fact that MCs just shrug off melta like it's nothing really hurts them too.

Sorry...what? Most MC's are tough 6. Most cant handle AP 1. So what are you saying? Shrug it off? I don't understand this comment.

This is just another line of thinking spawned by the super-efficiency of today's top tier shooting units. It's not that Melta isn't an option to put wounds on MCs or blow apart vehicles, it's just that it's no longer the best option. If you go back and look at many of the comments surrounding this issue, the 33% chance to destroy a Land Raider or do multiple Hull Points to a super-heavy just isn't good enough in a world where Grav, Haywire, and D weapons exist. Heck, mass S6 and S7 shooting is good enough to hull point out most vehicles (from the right angles) and is also good at killing infantry, so spending points on melta shots (or the equivalent in non-marine armies) is, at this point, considered overkill or unnecessary.

I still use Meltagun toting assault marines in a drop pod (2 units) because i've got them painted up, they do the job I've outlined for them, and I don't mind the 33% chance of ultimate success, but they would probably come out of the list if I actually started allying in some more efficient shooting units that could do their job better (or painted up some grav bikers, which wouldn't require allies).

Interesting. Not every army has an alternative source in great abundance. I see the point you're making (obviously) and have always been one to consider the alternative routes.

However, blood Angels really don't have that "alternative" built in much. So if we're still talking about Blood Angels, I think you have to deal in their reality which is that getting the angles on vehicles is just as easy for them with a Melta as any weapon and the melta is the weapon they have the most use of for that job.

Maneuvering is much easier for Assault Marines and tanks because they can deep strike or pod in etc... the main battle tanks for Blood angels can tear up normal infantry but against tanks the meltas is king in the blood Angels arsenal (again given the number of them they can realistically bring).

An off example is Sisters of Battle. melta is all they have pretty much. But they have a ton of it and i can alpha strike any Imperial Knight or "big thing" off the board in turn one. Blood Angels can do it in turn two usually if they are built that way.

Anywho, I was quite caught off guard by the idea that you would say that a MC "shrugs off" STR 8 ap1 weapons. I dont see that as being a very accurate depiction.

 Jancoran wrote:
Interesting. Not every army has an alternative source in great abundance. I see the point you're making (obviously) and have always been one to consider the alternative routes.

However, blood Angels really don't have that "alternative" built in much. So if we're still talking about Blood Angels, I think you have to deal in their reality which is that getting the angles on vehicles is just as easy for them with a Melta as any weapon and the melta is the weapon they have the most use of for that job.

Maneuvering is much easier for Assault Marines and tanks because they can deep strike or pod in etc... the main battle tanks for Blood angels can tear up normal infantry but against tanks the meltas is king in the blood Angels arsenal (again given the number of them they can realistically bring).

An off example is Sisters of Battle. melta is all they have pretty much. But they have a ton of it and i can alpha strike any Imperial Knight or "big thing" off the board in turn one. Blood Angels can do it in turn two usually if they are built that way.

Anywho, I was quite caught off guard by the idea that you would say that a MC "shrugs off" STR 8 ap1 weapons. I dont see that as being a very accurate depiction.

BA reality sucks, because they don't have the new hotness of HPing out vehicles from 36" away and taking trivial return fire.

MCs indeed don't about weapons that aren't at least ROF 2.This means plasma and grav are legit, but plasma is basically a loser against WK. But it's still better than melta with ROF 1. Hell, melta isn't even that good against vehicles anymore. As far as MCs go, MCs shrugging off melta as trivial is extremely accurate. Hell, they shrug off my entire gakking list.

And you can't get enough meltas close enough to Riptides to even scratch them. If you send four meltas, one might get to 12". The others will all be vaporized.

The main tanks for BA are now mostly unplayable garbage anyway, so I'm not counting on them for anything.

" But they have a ton of it and i can alpha strike any Imperial Knight or "big thing" off the board in turn one"

Not a Riptide or Wraithknight. Welcome to 7th ed.

" coupled with your bolters."

You keep acting like bolters matter. They don't. They haven't for a while now.

Baal Preds are still a thing, last I checked. Yeah they're worse than tri las preds or missile/las devs against av12+, but they still have chances against them. Against battle companies they make a ton of money, as 6 str5 shots and 4 str6 twin linked shots will strip them quite nicely.

Melta isn't an ideal option against monsters or vehicles you just need to strip hp from, but they give things like marines a weapon that allows you to chance blowing up a tank or take a wound or two off of a monster before you charge it.

I agree about not taking init1 weapons on sgts. Particularly in the Baal Strike Force formation, when 4 attacks at str5 ap3 init5 will win him challenges against things like nobs, other marine sgts, etc, and at the least tie him in challenges vs eldar exarchs.

The side armor, price and slot for the Baal pred are all really, really unfortunate. The assault cannon is universally overpriced in the Imperial army.

Martel732 wrote:
The side armor, price and slot for the Baal pred are all really, really unfortunate. The assault cannon is universally overpriced in the Imperial army.

Most weapons, upgrades, and vehicles (fair number of units too) are overpriced in Imperial armies. Which is why the appropriately costed stuff and rare under-costed items are almost always auto-includes. SM are the worst offender with grav because that is pretty much all they got.

Thanks again for all your comments.

As I already have three bikers that came with my purchase of Dark Vengeance I may opt to go down the Biker route. But I'll probably start from scratch as those bikers are fairly basic (Plasma Gun). The good thing is T5 and jink, which is a pain to fight against. I know, I had to face off against Ravenwing several weeks ago and they were really annoying.

Okay, Martel, I'm convinced. land Speeders will be added to my 'To-buy' list, along with Vanguard Veterans and a Tri-Las Predator.

I'm still looking at a Land Raider Crusader. I could fill it with Tactical Marines and several IC, or use Death Company, Vets or terminators. Sure, It's big, expensive and will attract fire, but I can charge out of it and get into combat in one go.

Stormravens are also on the list.

QUESTION: With regards to the LR Crusader, is it possible to put three 5-man tactical marines in it? I'd love to use 3 Heavy Flamers, 3 Sergeants with whatever weapons they have and then have the Tactical marines fire their Bolt Pistols instead of their Bolters, so they can still charge. I ould also add an IC to the 15 tactcial marines for added punch. A Sanguinary Priest could be fun. Or a librarian.

No it's not a super heavy. Only one unit.

Also bear in mind, that regardless of being a skimmer or assault vehicle (Such as the Land Raider) you cannot disembark if you move over 6" unless there is a rule (Such as on the Storm Raven, Skies of Fury rule) That allows it. Also, if you do disembark out of something moving further than 6" thanks to a rule, 99.99% of the time it will prevent the charge. So bear that in mind if you're using your Land Raider to drop an assault unit in prep for charge.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Okay.

I'll probably shove 15 DC inside with a Chaplain.

However, Another question.

With a LR Crusader, I presume I can put in a full Tactical squad and, if I want, up to 5 attached IC?

So, for example: 10 Tactical marines, 1 Librarian, 1 Sanguinary Priest, 1 Techmarine, 1 Chaplain, 1 Captain all inside a LR Crusader. Can I do that?

You can do that, but land raiders and chaplains are both bad in 7th.

Martel732 wrote:
You can do that, but land raiders and chaplains are both bad in 7th.

What can I say? I like both.

Then go for it. Chaplains used to be quite good, so I'm probably just bitter there. The land raider has NEVER performed up to its cost. Ever.

What about running:

Raphen's Death Company (Deathstorm)

Cassor the Damned (Deathstorm)

Then wouldn't the Death Company squad and DC Dread take up troop slots and have OB Sec?

Also the Angels Fury Spearhead Force has a way for units deepstriking to assault the same turn they enter! The problem is you need to buy 3 Stormraven Gunships for the formation

 Phydox wrote:
What about running:

Raphen's Death Company (Deathstorm)

Cassor the Damned (Deathstorm)

Then wouldn't the Death Company squad and DC Dread take up troop slots and have OB Sec?

Also the Angels Fury Spearhead Force has a way for units deepstriking to assault the same turn they enter! The problem is you need to buy 3 Stormraven Gunships for the formation

Maybe; I don't have that FW book. If the DC dread is AV 12, I'd pass.

Flugel,
You may find you have too many points invested on one OK death star.

If you come to that conclusion, you could try spreading around the love. A few 8-9-man Tac squads in Rhinos, each with an IC. It means you need to weather one turn in the open, though, and that's costly. But if you lose one squad, the second then charges. You'll have more squads, but each one would be weaker.

Start the way you want. Try piling that squad into a LR, and enjoy. But if you find you want to change it, there are a number of ways to do similar but differently.

With BA, you probably want 5 man tac squads in rhinos or razors. Lately, I've quit using razors (which sucks because I have 8) because they just cost too much for AV 11. Typically I only use two or three tac squads. It's important to minimize the number of bolters in your list.

Can you still run the Baal strike force formation with Raphen's Death Company and Cassor as troops or do you have to stick to Karlean, terminators etc and not get the +1 initiative when charging?

 Slaphead wrote:
Can you still run the Baal strike force formation with Raphen's Death Company and Cassor as troops or do you have to stick to Karlean, terminators etc and not get the +1 initiative when charging?

If they troops, it should work. Baal strike force doesn't have restrictions on what the troops are; just troops.

Cool

 Phydox wrote:
What about running:

Raphen's Death Company (Deathstorm)

Cassor the Damned (Deathstorm)

Then wouldn't the Death Company squad and DC Dread take up troop slots and have OB Sec?

Also the Angels Fury Spearhead Force has a way for units deepstriking to assault the same turn they enter! The problem is you need to buy 3 Stormraven Gunships for the formation

I don't have those books, so I have no idea what's involved. I generally stick to the Baal Strike Force.

I've recently been using 2x 5-man tactical squads, each aimed at providing lots of close-range firepower after getting out of their transports (Rhino's). Each has a Sgt with a Chainsword and Storm bolter, and each squad features a Heavy Flamer.

Both Rhino's charge forward. When in the right position both squads get out, hose the enemy with fire before my DC or ASM jump in for CC. By that time the enemy squad(s) have taken several wounds, thinning their numbers. And if need be the two 5-man tactical squads can jump in the following turn or head for someone else. I've also got Sgts that are kitted out for CC or tougher opponents in general, such as a PF or Power sword and a plasma pistol or inferno pistol.

Both combinations work well and I can tailor both squads for different roles: Fire Support or Close Combat. If I want my tactical marines to both fire and charge in they simply use their bolt pistols instead of their bolters. And I can kit each squad with a meltagun if required.

I can also change one rhino into a Razorback for added punch, though I don't like the steep points cost in comparison.

Currently, this is what I own:

HQ
x1 Mephiston
x1 Corbulo
x1 Terminator Chaplain
x1 Chaplain with JP

ELITES
x15 Tactical Terminators
x5 DC with JP
x1 Furioso

TROOPS
x25 Tactical Marines (2x HF, 2x Meltaguns, 1x PC)
x1 Rhino
x1 Razorback with TL HB

FAST ATTACK
x10 ASM with JP

HEAVY SUPPORT
x10 Devastator (2x Las, 2x PC, 2x MM, 2x ML)

My next planned purchase is going to be one or more of the following: Land Speeders, Predators, more DC, Vanguard Vets with JP.

Mephiston works best with additional libbies in the army. At least one other, maybe more with a dual CAD or dual flesh tearer strike force. Divination Mephiston is surprisingly effective with some sternguard.

Against choppy forces, I try to get my Tacs to assault the same turn as my ASM, if feasible.

Remember that each Tac has a Bolt Pistol and Krak/Frag grenades. Those can be fired before assaulting.

So? TWC and WK don' t care.

Bharring wrote:
Against choppy forces, I try to get my Tacs to assault the same turn as my ASM, if feasible.

Remember that each Tac has a Bolt Pistol and Krak/Frag grenades. Those can be fired before assaulting.

Mentioned in my previous post.

Well Dante is the beast that Mephiston was almost and I like Dante a lot. My burning hatred for Mephiston in the 5E codex remains to this day so i am always pleased to see Dante (and then he hits me like a feight train and i silently curse).

Anywho, On a scale of 1 to 10, how often do you use him in your list?

 Jancoran wrote:
Well Dante is the beast that Mephiston was almost and I like Dante a lot. My burning hatred for Mephiston in the 5E codex remains to this day so i am always pleased to see Dante (and then he hits me like a feight train and i silently curse).

Anywho, On a scale of 1 to 10, how often do you use him in your list?

If you mean Dante, not so often, I'd say 2, I dont like playing LoW.
But he is the best IC in the codex, no doubt.