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Bartali wrote:
For what it's worth, my opinion on BA hasn't changed since release. At least for my (Maelstrom) Meta, YMMV.

Baal Strike Force.
Max Elites slots with 5x DC with on Power Fist per squad.
Max Fast slots with Grav Bikes and MM Attack Bikes
HQ - Libby on a bike or jump chaplain if you prefer.
Troops - Min scouts or min Tacticals in Pods/Rhinos

If points left over after that, consider allies. Or if you really want to stay mono BA, consider triple Flamestorm Baals (no sponsons) in the Heavy Slot.

Is that DC for each Elite slot?

We don't have 'Grav bikes'. We have bikes. Or is there something about BA that I don't know? Attack Bikes seem like a good route.

I wouldn't touch scouts with a barge pole, unless I could put them in a Land Speeder. For me they seem far too vulnerable and lack any real firepower.

Bikers with grav guns = grav bikes.

Scouts are cheaper than tacs, frequently almost as hard to kill, and don't need Rhino for mobility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Vindicators have to close to 24" to fire (exposing their AV 11 sides), and can't get access to ignore cover. I leave them at home.

More accurately, the enemy neds to cloe in on the Vindicators. One does not deploy Vindicatros to start the game. One deploys them later when the enemy must neds reach objuectives and their anti-armor ability is lessened.

Food for thought. Vidicators are brutally powerful and they are much more effective later in the game...so why not let them come on later in the game?

I'm not advocating that everyone go out and buy one. But reserves is the way to go with a Vindicator.

That makes them even more of a one shot wonder. I'd rather have shot sooner rather than later. I think the vindicator basically sucks.

Later on it will get the chance to do itys thing 3 times probably. Early on, perhaps none.

I've been playing since 1994 and I've never seen a Vindicator fire three times. Vindicators used to be powerful. Now the power units in the game kinda go "meh".

@OP: are you opposed to using Formations?

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
@OP: are you opposed to using Formations?

Not at all. But if possible I'd like to go with something Ad Hoc, not necessarily laid down by GW. That way it would feel more rewarding when I win. I know that probably sounds self indulgent. But I'm certainly not opposed to using a formation.

Obviously I speak of winning here, but I've enjoyed every battle I've played despite losing in each one. I suppose I'd like something competitive, but balanced. It's when the game hangs in the balance and could go either way that provides the most enjoyment.

I suppose the root of my dislike of Scout Marines is more aesthetically orientated than anything else (I like lots of bright, bold armour, not a mix of armour and fatigues). I used them extensively when I played years ago and didn't really like them then. That hasn't really changed.

I'd say it's very difficult to impossible to be "competitive" with BA. It usually takes a lot to go right and very little going wrong to win with them. There's virtually no margin of error at all. It doesn't help that lists like Eldar throw so many dice that they statistically can't get unlucky.

As I said elsewhere, I'm really digging archangels sanguine wing. The 400 pts of free gear is really hard to beat, even though the formation starts in reserves. Vanguards with free power weapons and sanguinary priests, some meltabombs and a couple of stormshields are much better than DC in most cases I'm finding out. They are certainly far, far superior at accepting a charge which does happen quite often. Stormravens are not my preferred way of delivering sternguard, but I'm finding that the turn 2 entry and the turn 3 hover, disembark, shoot combi-meltas and assault is a non-trivial combination. I just hover the raven on turn 3 and it shoots every weapon it can for the rest of the game and I don't care if it lives or dies.

I actually got a Necron player to say that my list was "horrifying". They really can't stop all the power armor, and that many power mauls/axes cuts them to little tiny pieces and the rest break and run and get chased down by angry BA. Tau and Eldar still don't give a feth, because they'll just do what they always do and shoot everything to death trivially.

Ouch!

Is that formation in the codex?

 Flugel Meister wrote:

Bartali wrote:
For what it's worth, my opinion on BA hasn't changed since release. At least for my (Maelstrom) Meta, YMMV.

Baal Strike Force.
Max Elites slots with 5x DC with on Power Fist per squad.
Max Fast slots with Grav Bikes and MM Attack Bikes
HQ - Libby on a bike or jump chaplain if you prefer.
Troops - Min scouts or min Tacticals in Pods/Rhinos

If points left over after that, consider allies. Or if you really want to stay mono BA, consider triple Flamestorm Baals (no sponsons) in the Heavy Slot.

Is that DC for each Elite slot?

We don't have 'Grav bikes'. We have bikes. Or is there something about BA that I don't know? Attack Bikes seem like a good route.

I wouldn't touch scouts with a barge pole, unless I could put them in a Land Speeder. For me they seem far too vulnerable and lack any real firepower.

It is 5 DC in each slot, and as others have said it's Bikes with Grav.
Scouts - BA troop options are rubbish, and a tax to get the better stuff. It's worth keeping the troops slot as cheap as possible.

Again, just to reiterate, for meta and YMMV

Baal Strike Force
Librarian w/ Bike, ML2
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta

Above is 1224. If you're keeping mono-BA you can add in 2x Flamestorm Baals which takes you to 1454 (add in some combi-gravs to take to 1500)
For 1850 I'd probably want a Knight, not least because I'm running out of Force org slots. So at 1850 :-

Baal Strike Force
Librarian w/ Bike, ML2, Veritas Vitae
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta
1x Baal w/ Flamestorm Cannon
1x Baal w/ Flamestorm Cannon

Imperial Knight allied Detachement
1x Knight Warden

 Flugel Meister wrote:
Ouch!

Is that formation in the codex?

It's in Baal: Exterminatus. Or, alternatively, Blood of Kittens website.

I faced the Grey Knight player last night and won. 6-3 VP Yay!!!!

1,000 points

Blood Angels

HQ:
1 Chaplain in Terminator Armour

ELITES:
5 Death Company with JP (1 Power fist, 2 Infernus pistols, 1 plasma pistol, 1 power sword, 3 chainswords).
5 Tactical Terminators (1 power sword, 1 Assault Cannon)
1 Furioso with Blood Talons (1 heavy flamer & 1 Meltagun)

TROOPS:
1 5-man Tactical Squad (1 plasma pistol, 1 plasma gun) in a Rhino.
1 5-man Tactical Squad (1 Plasma Cannon).

HEAVY WEAPONS:
1 5-man Devastator Squad (2 Lascannons & 2 Multi-meltas, Sgt with combi-melta).


Grey Knights

1 Grey Knight Captain
1 DreadKnight
2 Grey Knight Terminator Squads
1 Purifier Squad
1 Stormraven

Yeah vindicators, even fast ones, fall short in this edition. A single str10 ap2 shot with ordinance will penetrate almost any vehicle in the game, but fail to do any real damage even without jink.

Fast tri las preds and baal preds are significantly better fire support units than devastators, as they're highly mobile. It really just depends on what you're facing commonly as to which one is better. If your local meta has a lot of av13+ or GMCs, the tri las pred is better. If it features more bikes, infantry, and av10-11 vehicles, go with the baal.

Other than that, furioso dreads with frag cannons in pods, quad melta assault marine squads, bikes with grav guns, death company, librarians, sanguinary priests and Dante are all solid units. Mephiston is great as well, but only if you find a way to deliver him. I usually play with the Baal or Flesh Tearer strike force (more often the former), so I keep my troops to a minimum. 2x5 scouts with shanks and combi meltas if you want as few points as possible in troops, or a couple small tac squads with melta guns or heavy flamers in fast las/plas razors. We still have the options to compete, but ours are just more limited than most.

To be honest I'm probably going to go down the Predator route.

Now that I know how to use my Death Company properly, I'll keep using them. Power fist FTW.

I augmenting my force with a Razorback to join my Rhino for added momentum and punch. For the main bulk of my firepower I'll be using a combination of Predators and Devastator squads.

Did your devastators not get shot off the table? They have got reasonable firepower output but I question their squishy durability.

 Flugel Meister wrote:
To be honest I'm probably going to go down the Predator route.

Now that I know how to use my Death Company properly, I'll keep using them. Power fist FTW.

I augmenting my force with a Razorback to join my Rhino for added momentum and punch. For the main bulk of my firepower I'll be using a combination of Predators and Devastator squads.

I would also consider archangels sanguine wing.

 Slaphead wrote:
Did your devastators not get shot off the table? They have got reasonable firepower output but I question their squishy durability.

It'll depend on the army I'm facing. They worry Grey Knights, Necrons, and in some ways, Eldar. But grey Knights in particular as they lack any significant long range firepower.

The real problem is that devastators can't take any worthwhile weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
The real problem is that devastators can't take any worthwhile weapons.

Lascannons are not TERRIBLE, but they are not all that good either. Overpriced for what they accomplish. Missile Launchers are okay, but still not great. Both suffer from bad rate of fire.

As far as Devastators go, I prefer high RoF/Template weapons over single shot, though as has been said, the lascannon is always a decent choice at the very least.

My preferred combo on Devastators is a pair of Heavy Bolters, backed up by a pair of Plasma Cannons in the squad. If I opt to run them as a full 10 man squad, then I can combat squad them, but if I don't, their profiles match up well in that they have the same range (36") and both weapons are designed to hurt infantry while doing a pretty good job of threatening most anything I might be shooting them at.

That's my preference anyway.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

As I've stated, I would never use BA devs at this point. Which sucks, because I have like 20 of them.

They waste red thirst/furious charge, and don't have grav cannons. If they could take heavy flamers I would run them in pods, basically in every list I put down.

I was talking to the main tournament organizer at my FLGS the other day, and he commented that a lot of the players on the competitive scene are talking about a resurgence of Sanguinary Guard. A lot of metas are moving away from massed ap2 and towards torrenting firepower, which our highly mobile and artificer armored golden boys happen to be great against, particularly when backed up by a priest. Combined with the fact that they also shoot rather well and one can easily see how they could come back into favor.

I love Sanguinary Guard, their Aestetic is second to none in my opinion, but much like Terminators, they're too expensive for a 1 wound model. I think they need to cost about 4 to 5 points less (personally I say 5 points) So that a unit of 5 costs 140 points instead of 165. It still makes them 6 points more expensive than Sternguard Veterans per model, and are a viable alternative being faster than Terminators at the cost of not having an innate invulnerable save.

I also agree that attaching a priest and/or a Librarian to a squad of Sanguinary Guard would be a boon, especially if the Librarian has the Shield of Sanguinius and/or Unleashed Rage power to aid in number of attacks and giving them at least a little bit of an invulnerable save against low AP weapons. Honestly the Sanguinary Guard are my favorite unit in the Blood Angels codex, with Death Company taking a very close second place.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Scorpius Whirlwind with ignore cover legacy and a Sicaran is a good boost to BA mono builds, the Fire Raptor as well, but make sure you bring Dante then for the reserve re-roll.

Martel732 wrote:
As I've stated, I would never use BA devs at this point. Which sucks, because I have like 20 of them.

I Have to disagree. I've discovered that Blood Angels are much better than most people say at being 'shooty', mainly because everyone runs the BA army they have as an all attacking force, which simply isn't necessary all of the time. It's okay to hang squads back, use Predators or Devastators as a firebase for other advancing units.

My recent game against the Grey Knight army is a shining example of this, mainly because his units lack any long range firepower, though he was fairly mobile.

My Devastator squad (2 Las, 2 MM), caused him all kinds of problems. I used his strengths against him i.e his advantage in CC. He had to come to me. I sat my Death Company back behind my Devastator squad and as soon as his grey Knight Terminators were close enough they pounced, slaughtering the squad. I had two separate elements in my force: one for attacking and taking his objective, and one for defending my own objective and countering his attempts to take it.

Obviously this wont work every time. More shooty opponents such as Tau, Eldar, and the massed guns of Orks or IG will require a different approach. But I think charging towards the enemy without any type of supporting fire is simply reckless. If anything, the Devastator squad might take out some of his/her more dangerous units, or simply attract fire, allowing your advancing troops a bit of a reprieve.

I've even used a downgraded Death Company squad as a diversion, simply because of their reputation. Most opponents will fixate on them, taking the pressure off your other squads that are advancing.

Even if I was against a Tau (a typically shooty) army I'd still have fire support. otherwise, all he/she has to do is wait for me to get close instead of having to contend with incoming fire. Lascannons and missile launchers are superb for this simply due to their impressive range. But I know some BA players are reluctant to try and out shoot a Tau army. That's practically classed as heresy. But you don't have to try and match their firepower, simply cause concern. Force them to prioritise targets that go beyond the troops advancing towards them.

I've lost previous games simply because I re-prioritized, whereas my opponents have stuck to their original plan. Get them to have to adapt and you're immediately messing with their overarching battle plan. You're also diluting their massed firepower.

That being said, I've yet to face Tau, IG, Eldar (although I have played as them), Orks or Nids. So I'll understand if people here think I sound like a noob with grandiose plans of conquest. I'm hoping to face the Tau player tonight, so I can get a feel for Tau and the units that are used.

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on your victory vs GK - he had a terrible list that couldn't play to the strengths of GK.

I'm sure Devs and Preds work well enough in a relaxed meta where a 5th ed TAC approach to list building works well enough. Outside of that vs hyper competitive 7th ed lists, you're going to struggle.

 Flugel Meister wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As I've stated, I would never use BA devs at this point. Which sucks, because I have like 20 of them.

I Have to disagree. I've discovered that Blood Angels are much better than most people say at being 'shooty', mainly because everyone runs the BA army they have as an all attacking force, which simply isn't necessary all of the time. It's okay to hang squads back, use Predators or Devastators as a firebase for other advancing units.

My recent game against the Grey Knight army is a shining example of this, mainly because his units lack any long range firepower, though he was fairly mobile.

My Devastator squad (2 Las, 2 MM), caused him all kinds of problems. I used his strengths against him i.e his advantage in CC. He had to come to me. I sat my Death Company back behind my Devastator squad and as soon as his grey Knight Terminators were close enough they pounced, slaughtering the squad. I had two separate elements in my force: one for attacking and taking his objective, and one for defending my own objective and countering his attempts to take it.

Obviously this wont work every time. More shooty opponents such as Tau, Eldar, and the massed guns of Orks or IG will require a different approach. But I think charging towards the enemy without any type of supporting fire is simply reckless. If anything, the Devastator squad might take out some of his/her more dangerous units, or simply attract fire, allowing your advancing troops a bit of a reprieve.

I've even used a downgraded Death Company squad as a diversion, simply because of their reputation. Most opponents will fixate on them, taking the pressure off your other squads that are advancing.

Even if I was against a Tau (a typically shooty) army I'd still have fire support. otherwise, all he/she has to do is wait for me to get close instead of having to contend with incoming fire. Lascannons and missile launchers are superb for this simply due to their impressive range. But I know some BA players are reluctant to try and out shoot a Tau army. That's practically classed as heresy. But you don't have to try and match their firepower, simply cause concern. Force them to prioritise targets that go beyond the troops advancing towards them.

I've lost previous games simply because I re-prioritized, whereas my opponents have stuck to their original plan. Get them to have to adapt and you're immediately messing with their overarching battle plan. You're also diluting their massed firepower.

That being said, I've yet to face Tau, IG, Eldar (although I have played as them), Orks or Nids. So I'll understand if people here think I sound like a noob with grandiose plans of conquest. I'm hoping to face the Tau player tonight, so I can get a feel for Tau and the units that are used.

The weapons available to BA devastators don't count as supporting fire. Imperial heavy weapons are stuck in the 90s and simply don't cause enough damage anymore.

Armies that can table you in 3-4 turns, like Tau, don't have too hard of a time prioritizing targets. Plus, Riptides and Stormsurges are basically immune to Imperial heavy weapons anyway.

I ignore devastators. I ignore predators. And that's with BA. Why? Because they can't do enough damage to matter. I'm used to dealing with 20 scatterbikes and 80 S6 shots. Your devastators mean nothing in the face of that. You'll never stop me before I'm punching your face in.

I've pretty much sidelined my BA in the past few months, but a game yesterday sparked my curiosity towards Devs. I was facing DA with my AM and my opponent had a Devastator squad all with missile launchers. Although it's by no means overly powerful, four small blasts played hell with my infantry and four krak missiles hitting on 3s went through transports and LRBTs with ease which I'd overlooked.

There's not much of a point difference between Devs with missile launchers compared to an overcharged Predator, so might give them a try in place.

Fl,
Each meta is different. It sounds like yours is really casual.

BA devs having the few bonuses to assault isn't completely wasted in your meta. If things get close to assault them, you can threaten to assault first. There are a lot of skirmisher units that have more to fear from being charged by BA devs than UM devs, that would otherwise love to assault the devs. Besides, only UM and IH devs, I think, have any CT bonuses. Devs aren't all that great, sure, but BA devs aren't any worse than most chaptsrs' devs.

If your meta is more casual, you may not need to streamline your list. My Marines are UM decendents, but most of the core stuff is the same. For a good game, I usually go for 2x10man Tacs + at least 1 Dev and at least 1 ASM squad. It allows you to play all the phases of the game. Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty.

If you use ASM, just remember that they aren't DC. They aren't Orks. They are bullies. There are a lot of units in the game an ASM squad can tear up. But CC threats will typically chew them up and spit them out. So I use mine as skirmishers. Going after the light units or backfield units that aren't sufficiently protected. Or supporting my Tacs either to support an assault or as a counter assault. Useful, but not your front line fighters.

I had some success with a double CAD Flesh Tearers Strike Force list with 4x10 assault marines each led by a priest. With ws5 and fnp they actually do a pretty good job of cutting down most targets in the game. A power weapon or fist on both the sgt and the priest also adds some much needed punch.

Martel732 wrote:

 Flugel Meister wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As I've stated, I would never use BA devs at this point. Which sucks, because I have like 20 of them.

I Have to disagree. I've discovered that Blood Angels are much better than most people say at being 'shooty', mainly because everyone runs the BA army they have as an all attacking force, which simply isn't necessary all of the time. It's okay to hang squads back, use Predators or Devastators as a firebase for other advancing units.

My recent game against the Grey Knight army is a shining example of this, mainly because his units lack any long range firepower, though he was fairly mobile.

My Devastator squad (2 Las, 2 MM), caused him all kinds of problems. I used his strengths against him i.e his advantage in CC. He had to come to me. I sat my Death Company back behind my Devastator squad and as soon as his grey Knight Terminators were close enough they pounced, slaughtering the squad. I had two separate elements in my force: one for attacking and taking his objective, and one for defending my own objective and countering his attempts to take it.

Obviously this wont work every time. More shooty opponents such as Tau, Eldar, and the massed guns of Orks or IG will require a different approach. But I think charging towards the enemy without any type of supporting fire is simply reckless. If anything, the Devastator squad might take out some of his/her more dangerous units, or simply attract fire, allowing your advancing troops a bit of a reprieve.

I've even used a downgraded Death Company squad as a diversion, simply because of their reputation. Most opponents will fixate on them, taking the pressure off your other squads that are advancing.

Even if I was against a Tau (a typically shooty) army I'd still have fire support. otherwise, all he/she has to do is wait for me to get close instead of having to contend with incoming fire. Lascannons and missile launchers are superb for this simply due to their impressive range. But I know some BA players are reluctant to try and out shoot a Tau army. That's practically classed as heresy. But you don't have to try and match their firepower, simply cause concern. Force them to prioritise targets that go beyond the troops advancing towards them.

I've lost previous games simply because I re-prioritized, whereas my opponents have stuck to their original plan. Get them to have to adapt and you're immediately messing with their overarching battle plan. You're also diluting their massed firepower.

That being said, I've yet to face Tau, IG, Eldar (although I have played as them), Orks or Nids. So I'll understand if people here think I sound like a noob with grandiose plans of conquest. I'm hoping to face the Tau player tonight, so I can get a feel for Tau and the units that are used.

The weapons available to BA devastators don't count as supporting fire. Imperial heavy weapons are stuck in the 90s and simply don't cause enough damage anymore.

Armies that can table you in 3-4 turns, like Tau, don't have too hard of a time prioritizing targets. Plus, Riptides and Stormsurges are basically immune to Imperial heavy weapons anyway.

I ignore devastators. I ignore predators. And that's with BA. Why? Because they can't do enough damage to matter. I'm used to dealing with 20 scatterbikes and 80 S6 shots. Your devastators mean nothing in the face of that. You'll never stop me before I'm punching your face in.

Fair enough. Can't argue with that. I take it you were playing against Eldar?

I didn't get to play against the Tau player. Instead I got to play against one of the more experienced players, who fielded a Dark Angels army.

Surprisingly, it was a fairly close game. I discovered, much to my annoyance, the skills of his Ravenwing. Damn those jinks. But my devastators caused him problems. I wiped out his only Devastator squad in turn 1. And then used them to take out other squads, though his ravening were more difficult to kill.

Death Company did well, taking out 2 squads of marines. But I discovered how weak the regular Assault squad can be. I assaulted his scouts with them and it took almost 3 turns to kill his scouts in CC. He brought a Vindicator, so I got to see, first hand, how good/bad they are. As he doesn't have the benefit of Overcharged engines, it took another turn to get any real use out of it. My Predtor took it on and lost in the end. But his most effective troops were his bikes and his funky ravening land speeder. Damn those jinks and his twin linked plasma snap shots. They ended up wiping out my terminator squad.

In the end I lost 7-9 VP.

I'll probably still opt for devastators or a predator. The dilemma is in which to choose sometimes.

So, with Tau and, I suppose, Eldar, what's best?

Against Tau and Eldar; I simply choose models based on how easy they are to put back in the case.

Terminators are a true losing cause against DA. I'm glad you had a close game, but I'm still of the position that preds and devastators really aren't worth it anymore.