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After being away from the hobby for 7 years, I decided to jump back in. I used BA before and started again, as I'd made the mistake of selling everything before. Ouch!

So, to start off, I'm looking at several 1,000/1,500 point lists for dealing with a variety of opponents: Chaos, Nids, Tau, ork, etc... What's the best way to go about this? I want to have several army lists, each one with an opponent in mind. Blood Angels only! No allies.

I'm also in a club, so I get to play every week against experienced players, which is great for self-imposed WH40K education. Steep learning curve.

I've played 3 games at the club so far. First opponent was Grey Knights. At the time I went with an Eldar allied detachment with Blood Angels. He wiped the floor with me. Though my Furioso disemboweled one of his two his DreadKnights. That was fun!

Second game was against Necrons. I'd borrowed some Blood Angels to give me some variety, namely a Devastator Squad and another Furioso. I'd learnt my lack-of-firepower lesson from the Grey Knight game. I inflicted quite a bit of damage, but ultimately his wraiths flanked and took out the Dev squad, a Tac squad and a Furioso. gak, man! Only my Chaplain in Terminator armour survived to the end, locked in combat against his Necron Lord.

My third game was against Dark Eldar. I went with my Chaplain again as HQ, 2x 5-man tac squads, 2x 5-man Assault squads (JP), 2 Furioso's, and 2x 5-man Dev squads. In the end I lost, but only by 2 points. His flyers (venoms, I think) were a pain as they decimated both Dev Squads. Well, in truth 3 of my Dev marines killed themselves firing their plasma cannons.

His better initiative meant one assault squad suffered, but the other mopped up in a follow up assault. I lost pretty much all of my Tactical marines and a Furioso as well. But my remaining Furioso took out both of his Raider transports and then half of his ten man wych squad. I lost that game through the bad decision of opting to let him go first, hoping I could weather the storm in turn 1 and then charge in or flatten him with heavy weapons firepower.

So, advice, folks. Much appreciated.

What works best against different armies? As I'm getting back into the swing of things I want to buy with a purpose and not spam the GW store with my wallet, though I'm sure they'd appreciate my £ spam.

For Necrons and Dark Eldar, I'm looking at a jump pack focused army, with some firepower for back up.
For Tau I'm looking at moving fast and hitting hard, using Deep striking terminators, vindicators, razorbacks and a lascannon equipped devastator squad, and Death company to boot.
Orks will face a fast moving assault army, while Nids will face a standing gun line with some harassing units.
IG will face a similar army to what'll go up against the Tau.

Let's forget about top tier builds, because BA don't have any anyway.

It sounds like you are using a lot of units that are known to struggle in 7th ed.

So rather than starting off negative, let's list the things that are at least mediocre units.

1) Grav bikers
2) Furioso equipped with frag cannon in a drop pod
3) Jump pack Death Company with 1 power fist per 5 dudes
4) Level 2 librarian support
5) Sanguinary priests
6) Fast predators (I guess)
7) Dante (according to some, I don't agree, but he should go on here)

Unfortunately, BA are no longer very good at assault and struggle to compete in the shooting phase as well. First useful tip: always take minimum troops with BA or close to minimum troops if you are going obj sec. BA troops are really bad.

Assault squads and scouts are pretty nice too. Assault marines can get meltas and a pod, land in and do some damage initially and than still remain a threat that needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, they'll put a bunch of s5, probably i5 attacks.

Needs threat saturation to work properly.

Some people like Mephiston as a tank and ap3 chopper in a pod. He no longer goes solo dracula.

 koooaei wrote:
Assault squads and scouts are pretty nice too. Assault marines can get meltas and a pod, land in and do some damage initially and than still remain a threat that needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, they'll put a bunch of s5, probably i5 attacks.

Needs threat saturation to work properly.

That's pretty hard in a book of non-threats. Assault squads and scouts are not good, imo. The triple melta thing is actually very unreliable.

Better than double melta on tacticals. And those are still used. Fall in, 3 melta, 1 krak, 1 bolt and hope for the best. Pretty likely to bring harm to most vehicles without fancy improved jinks.

It's not a guaranteed kill but it's not bad for the points. Can go with flamers - that could have a place too.

Oh, btw, tacticals have access to heavy flamers. So, you could do a flamer drop. Flamer + combi-flamer + heavy flamer. Some armies will hate you for that. Others won't care. So, up to you to decide.

I have almost always been very disappointed with the triple melta suicide ASM unit. It's super terrible against lists with no mech as well.

Tripple flamer? =)

Have an answer for a Super Heavy/Gargantuan creature. Enough STR 8+ weapons at AP 3 or better are needed. Instant Death weapons help. To compete, you need an answer for these big 'uns. They will show up in your games. No sense fooling yourself about that!

Aside from that, you need mobility. Lots of missions favor it. Faster the better.

Final piece of advice: value Objective Secured units. If you can afford to, I highly recommend having at least four units that have the Objective Secured rule on them. Some of the more powerful builds you might face lack this rule and so just holding some Obsec in reserve and zooming them up later in the game can win it for you by dent of the fact that the enemy might not be able to contest you!

 koooaei wrote:
Tripple flamer? =)

Maybe. But then that's useless against meched up lists. BA are super hard to build with no list tailoring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
Have an answer for a Super Heavy/Gargantuan creature. Enough STR 8+ weapons at AP 3 or better are needed. Instant Death weapons help. To compete, you need an answer for these big 'uns. They will show up in your games. No sense fooling yourself about that!

Aside from that, you need mobility. Lots of missions favor it. Faster the better.

Final piece of advice: value Objective Secured units. If you can afford to, I highly recommend having at least four units that have the Objective Secured rule on them. Some of the more powerful builds you might face lack this rule and so just holding some Obsec in reserve and zooming them up later in the game can win it for you by dent of the fact that the enemy might not be able to contest you!

This, of course, means giving up init 5 assaults, but I've found obj sec more valuable because there's too many things now that the BA can't punch anyway.

Also, you really want AP 2 for your anti-MC tech, because Riptides and DK are two of the meanest and most prevalent MCs out there. This is why I listed grav bikers first.

One of the best units in the BA book is Death Company. It took me a while to learn of these guy's potential brutality on the field. Have a couple of power fists in a 10 man squad with jump packs and they can be killer. Add a chaplain and they're re rolling all their attacks.
Another good thing BA get is Dante placed in Sanguinary guard with a Sanguinary priest. Kinda expensive, but also pretty devastating.
Another pretty swish thing they get are predators with overcharged engines. Predators with the Fast special rule is pretty neat. Arm them with auto cannons and sponson las cannons and they're a really mobile anti-tank unit.
Furioso with a frag cannon in a drop pod is a really good distraction, and will often chew up entire squads on entry. Don't expect him to last very long though, so make sure it counts where you drop him.
Having +1 initiative on the charge is also very handy. I don't typically use it to assault though. I tend to play BA like other marines, but I instead use it to counter charge close combat armies, to deny them their bonuses and allow me to go either first or simultaneously.

" Add a chaplain and they're re rolling all their attacks. "

DC do NOT need a chaplain. Chaplains are wasted points in 7th ed. You need more bodies, more durability. Not rerolls on 50 attacks.

Chaplains are golden for DA. But DC...allready fearless and have a tonn of attacks. Better have more DC than a Chaplain imo.

I mostly have a chaplain with my DC cos its fluffy, and cos he's my warlord (cos the new jumplain figure is so damn cool)

I'd argue that CSM and BA are two lists than can ill afford to be fluffy.

 koooaei wrote:
Assault squads and scouts are pretty nice too. Assault marines can get meltas and a pod, land in and do some damage initially and than still remain a threat that needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, they'll put a bunch of s5, probably i5 attacks.

Needs threat saturation to work properly.

Some people like Mephiston as a tank and ap3 chopper in a pod. He no longer goes solo dracula.

Scouts are terrible. If they had access to the Storm I might say otherwise.

Surprised no one mentioned Sangunary Guard. A friend of mine is very fond of them having 2+, which is surprisingly good. They have decent HtH Loadout aswell - ap3, power fists etc.

They also look hella good!

cabal_therapy wrote:
Surprised no one mentioned Sangunary Guard. A friend of mine is very fond of them having 2+, which is surprisingly good. They have decent HtH Loadout aswell - ap3, power fists etc.

They also look hella good!

Because they are bad in 7th ed. Too much ap2 and they have no backup save. I specfically left them off my list.

Sanguinary guard can be good in certain situations. I have run them with some success. But the problem is that they are so expensive. And to make them worthwhile, you need to take a sanguinary priest. but really any unit with a sanguinary priest does better.

A unit as expensive as SG shouldn't need an HQ babysitter, yet they do.

Honestly, you could get better mileage out of Blood Angels of you were to play using the Raven Guard Tactics from Codex: Space Marines and the Kauyon detachments. Use the Blood Angels models whenever possible, but keep to the RG rules. It will suck not having DC, but when the RG outclass you in every other aspect, there is no reason to use BA. RG have better jump packs, are better at assaulting, and have better units.

The Kauyon Detachment allows for stuff like rolling for reserves on Turn 1. This works especially well with the Shadowstrike Kill Team formation that allows you to automatically succeed with Reserve Rolls on some Vanguard Veterans. Those Vanguard Vets can then assault out of Deep Strike. It is fairly easy to build an effective BA army that is still fairly fluffy.

Edit: really, I wish I could take my own advice, but I have way too many units for my BA army that don't work in the way I described. If I could go back, I probably wouldn't have even started the army in the first place. BA are terrible.

The units martel said plus;

MM Attack Bikes and Melta Rhino Assault Squads are decent. Meph is good, but not for mono BA.

Captain is a decent baby sitter, with bike, 2+3++ Had more success with bike captains then ive had with Dante, but both are not amazing.


You should decide early if your planning on bringing allies to your BA force because that will have a significant impact on what units you want to take.

Some decent allies:

Imperial Guard - Throw Mephiston in a IG blob and run up the board
Libby Conclave - Ravenguard to give 3 units shrouded turn one or white scar for hit and run (shrouded should help DC alot)
The new ravenguard formations with vanguard assaulting from deep strike.
Skyhammer Annihilation Force - for pinning and assault
Grav Centurions - For grav spam
Skitarii - Vanguard with haywire guns in pods > melta squads
Culexus Assassin - Anti psyker

Other books really do most/all things more efficient than BA, but you can build some decent lists with allies.

If your intending to go mono BA, i'd say msu is your best chanse, but many dont enjoy playing those lists. If you don't take something risky can can pull off wins 2-3 ravens loaded with 300-400 points each and an empty pod so you can null deploy. It will make games shorter and most people don't take anti air anymore.

Sorry for the late reply, everyone. And thanks for the advice. I'm not taking allies. I want to use a pure BA army list. I'm fond of Vindicators. What's the general consensus on using them in a BA army? Overcharged Engines FTW.

I'll be using Death Company. I know that. And I'll be kitting them out in power weapons etc. Assault squads are a must as are transports for Tactical marines.

How effective are stormraven gunships? They seem like easy prey for Tau.

Vindicators have to close to 24" to fire (exposing their AV 11 sides), and can't get access to ignore cover. I leave them at home.

Death company are pretty pricey once you equip them with a jump pack. Give them one power fist per five DC and leave the power weapons at home.

Assault squads are bad. Don't use them. I've decided even the melta drop versions are bad. Too many MCs that just don't give a feth.

BA are easy prey for Tau. Don't single out the Stormraven. I used to hate the thing, but I've been using it lately with the mindset of I don't care what happens to it and I find I like it much better. That means hovering it after you come on the board so you can just keep shooting targets.

Martel732 wrote:
Vindicators have to close to 24" to fire (exposing their AV 11 sides), and can't get access to ignore cover. I leave them at home.

More accurately, the enemy neds to cloe in on the Vindicators. One does not deploy Vindicatros to start the game. One deploys them later when the enemy must neds reach objuectives and their anti-armor ability is lessened.

Food for thought. Vidicators are brutally powerful and they are much more effective later in the game...so why not let them come on later in the game?

I'm not advocating that everyone go out and buy one. But reserves is the way to go with a Vindicator.

Martel, you can give one Vindicator battle of Keylek which gibes Ignore Cover to blast weapons. 35 points mind, but instant T5 removal is good.

Agree about DC, though I find power weapons are good at high points levels

Assault squads with Plasma in Rhinos work well for me. I use Drop Pods for Dreadnoughts these days. Much prefer mobile Rhinos for infantry.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Vindicators have to close to 24" to fire (exposing their AV 11 sides), and can't get access to ignore cover. I leave them at home.

More accurately, the enemy neds to cloe in on the Vindicators. One does not deploy Vindicatros to start the game. One deploys them later when the enemy must neds reach objuectives and their anti-armor ability is lessened.

Food for thought. Vidicators are brutally powerful and they are much more effective later in the game...so why not let them come on later in the game?

I'm not advocating that everyone go out and buy one. But reserves is the way to go with a Vindicator.

That makes them even more of a one shot wonder. I'd rather have shot sooner rather than later. I think the vindicator basically sucks.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Vindicators have to close to 24" to fire (exposing their AV 11 sides), and can't get access to ignore cover. I leave them at home.

More accurately, the enemy neds to cloe in on the Vindicators. One does not deploy Vindicatros to start the game. One deploys them later when the enemy must neds reach objuectives and their anti-armor ability is lessened.

Food for thought. Vidicators are brutally powerful and they are much more effective later in the game...so why not let them come on later in the game?

I'm not advocating that everyone go out and buy one. But reserves is the way to go with a Vindicator.

That makes them even more of a one shot wonder. I'd rather have shot sooner rather than later. I think the vindicator basically sucks.

Later on it will get the chance to do itys thing 3 times probably. Early on, perhaps none.

I'm with Martel here - they're just not that good in today's meta. Best case scenario is you get a bunch of castled up Crisis Suits, Marines or mech out of cover.
In reality though most good players aren't going to castle up, especially outside of cover. Vindicators also aren't very good against MC/GMCs

I'd also argue Vindicators are bad in a list where you're running multiple assault units (ie Death Company). You really don't want Vindicator shells scattering back onto your assault units.

Thanks for replying, everyone. I’m overwhelmed by the advice.
My 1,500 BA army list so far is this:

HQ:
X1 Chaplain Terminator (I don’t yet have a Librarian).

ELITES:
X5 Death Company with JP. X1 Powerfist, x1 power sword, x1 Infernus pistol and x1 Plasma pistol.
X5 Tactical Terminators (Deep Striking), x1 Assault Cannon.

TROOPS:
X5 Tactical Marines, x1 Rhino, Plasma gun
X5 Tactical Marines, x1 Razorback (TL HB), x1 Meltagun

FAST ATTACK:
X5 Assault Marines with JP, x1 Meltagun, x1 power weapon.
X5 Assault Marines with JP, x1 Meltagun, x1 power weapon.

HEAVY SUPPORT:
X5 Devastator Marines, x2 Lascannons, x2 Multi-meltas. Sgt with Combi-melta.
X5 Devastator Marines, x2 Heavy Bolters, x2 Missile Launchers. Sgt with Bolter.
X1 Vindicator. Overcharged engines, siege shield. (In my ‘to buy’ list)

1,493 points

Based upon advice and previous games, I’m planning on using this set up for the likes of Tau, Eldar, Orks, IG, and Chaos. It won’t be perfect, but it’s a start. I plan on adding a Stormraven at some point.
I know the Vindicator isn’t recommended here. But as mentioned before, using it later in the game could be really useful.

I’ve discovered the polarized effect of the Death Company. They’re expensive, and draw a lot of attention from the enemy. But I’ve learnt to use that to my advantage. They can soak up more firepower than your typical assault squad and are superb at diverting the attention of your opponent. Or you can keep them out of sight and rush them in when required. Good for mini-counter attacks.

The assault marines can be useful and useless, depending on the army I’m facing. But I like the mobility they add. Against Grey Knights they’re next to useless, but are good for holding actions.
I’ve opted for 2 Devastator squads for increased firepower and flexibility. The lascannons and meltas are great against armour, while the Heavy Bolters are obviously good for massed troops (hordes), and the missile launchers can be used for both hordes and armour.

I obviously need a psyker. I’m thinking of going with the Terminator Librarian or the Furioso Librarian dreadnought. I need this to help nullify the Grey Knight pysker spamming, especially when he drops a protective power on one of his DreadKnights, giving it an invulnerable save of 4+ I think.

In CC his Force Weapons are a pain so I plan on staying mobile, using DC and Assault troops to harass and then close for the kill when sufficiently depleted. The Devastators will remind his Dreadknights that moving in open terrain is a bad idea, and may even draw some attention from them, allowing me to go for objectives.

I’m open to using Mephiston to mess with his psychic gak, or adding Lemartes or Astorath when facing Grey Knights or other similar armies in CC.

The guy at the club who fields Tau tends to spread out his army. I’ve yet to face him, but plan on charging in and hitting him in one area so he has to move in order to engage. Fortunately, he hasn’t opted to camp in a corner, shooting at anything that moves.

I like my Furioso, but he’s just too slow for now, so I’ll opt for drop pods in future wallet-related GW outings.

Obviously, I’m still learning. I’ve yet to use a psyker, so I need some experience with that. And I’ve only used Deep Strike once before and found it to be useful, as long as everything goes according to plan.
I’ve also yet to win a game, but I still really enjoy them, even when my force is decimated. To me, it’s education and fun in one package. And I really enjoy the post-match analysis that ensues after a game.

NOTE: I played the Grey Knight army again, but had to borrow. It was before I came up with this list. I was trying out different things, but completely forgot to field a Devastator squad. Duh!

I had him worried for 3 turns, as my DC and Assault Marines were able to leap around the Battlefield. I rushed a rhino up the field and dropped a squad of terminators via Deep Strike next to his objective marker. In the end, though, I lacked the firepower to sufficiently stop him. His 2 DreadKnights simply leaped around dealing with each threat in turn, though my assault troops did bog them down in an effort to hold them long enough for my 2 Furiosos to arrive in time, which they didn’t. Too slow.

The Death Company drew a lot of attention early on, which diverted the attention away from my vulnerable rhino. I was very mobile, but lacked any real stopping power against him.

He’s a great player, very helpful and is more than happy to exchange ideas and tactics afterwards, which I love (the whole club is, in fact). His force is fairly solid, using 2 DreadKnights, 2 Terminator Grey Knight squads, and an allied IG detachment. I think pretty much everything he uses can deep strike, including the IG.

I suppose my additional questions would be: What works well against MC? And is the Stormraven an easy target when facing Tau?

For what it's worth, my opinion on BA hasn't changed since release. At least for my (Maelstrom) Meta, YMMV.

Baal Strike Force.
Max Elites slots with 5x DC with on Power Fist per squad.
Max Fast slots with Grav Bikes and MM Attack Bikes
HQ - Libby on a bike or jump chaplain if you prefer.
Troops - Min scouts or min Tacticals in Pods/Rhinos

If points left over after that, consider allies. Or if you really want to stay mono BA, consider triple Flamestorm Baals (no sponsons) in the Heavy Slot.