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Bharring wrote:
(2/3)hit * (5/6) wound * (2/3) failed invuln, typically.

That's (20/56) wounds/shot/round. So with 4, that's 80/56 wounds/round (plus some from boltguns/kraks if close). Not great vs MC spam, but some assistance.

So MCs aren't your optimal target, but they do help. If your opponent has 1 or 2 big MCs amongst infantry, with no vehicles, it can certainly help (what, 2-4 rounds of shooting vs average MCs before they punch you in the face?). But not the right tool vs MC spam.

ASM/Tac/Dev -heavy lists I've always felt struggled with MC spam.

Marines without grav cannons struggle against MCs. Fixed that for you. Hey, that's all BA lists! What a coincidence!

They'll struggle against Riptides, but a Lascannon (or any Heavy except Heavy Bolter) Dev squad is still a scary answer for a Wraithlord.

It really depends on what you're up against.

Bharring wrote:
They'll struggle against Riptides, but a Lascannon (or any Heavy except Heavy Bolter) Dev squad is still a scary answer for a Wraithlord.

It really depends on what you're up against.

Lascannon and scary doesn't go in the same sentence in 7th. That's because a real list could have had a grav cannon instead, which IS scary. ROF 1 basically junks the weapon in 7th ed.

Sure. If you want to pay a bit more, be a crapton closer, and not have individual supersoldiers carrying a freaking GIANT LASER as if it were a rifle. And if you're not a BA.

I certainly won't be replacing my devs with Grav Cannons in the near future. And its in my codex.

Just because your meta is super competitive doesn't mean everyone's is. There are still better and worse ways to run Devs without Grav Cannons.

And there are still options that should be scared by Lascannons. Rhinos and Wraithlords, for example.

If he's BA and he wants to run Devs, telling him his Devs should take Grav really doesn't help.

No, I'm saying that BA shouldn't be using devs at all. In fact, the whole heavy support section for BA is basically crap. I've lost less badly just avoiding BA heavy support altogether.

My Rhinos aren't scared by lascannons, because I know my opponent overpaid to hp out a Rhino.

So, we played last night.

Instead of 3v3 it was a 2v2 game. Orks and Blood Angels vs 2 Dark Angels armies.

I went with the list on the previous page. It was a fairly friendly game, so no cheese.

The Orks, fielded by the more experienced of us, did really well, and I followed up by dealing with several other threats. The Dark Angels didn't do so well.

We won.

In the end we held all 5 objectives, had Line Breaker and Slay the Warlord. I lost 5 models. My Devastators worked a treat, removing several opposing Devastators and an entire Deathwing Terminator squad. His dice really hated him. My Death Company didn't even get the chance to charge anyone due to everyone that I intended to attack dying.

Obviously this was quite a friendly, and a hugely enjoyable game. And the DA players could have fielded different squads or used/deployed them differently. I was disappointed with my assault squad. They're good and getting somewhere quickly, but don't have the power weapons to really threaten anyone, besides the Sergeant, of course. They charged a Techmarine with artificer armour and were still fighting him come the end of the game. I lost one of the assault marines in the process. Boo!

My tactical marines worked well. Both 5 man squads had a heavy flamer and they were quite effective. My Furioso also inflicted some serious damage to a DA tactical squad that had dropped via a drop pod.

Regarding the assault squad, you should pick your targets to charge, especially if the tech had a servo harness. Good save, plus the ability to easily kill a few basic guys a turn is easy for him. Weight of attacks may have bought him down, but if you are going to go down that route, you should be throwing death company at such targets, not your assault squads (unless they are equipped with AP2 melee, or have a character tooled up with AP2 attached that is).

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Regarding the assault squad, you should pick your targets to charge, especially if the tech had a servo harness. Good save, plus the ability to easily kill a few basic guys a turn is easy for him. Weight of attacks may have bought him down, but if you are going to go down that route, you should be throwing death company at such targets, not your assault squads (unless they are equipped with AP2 melee, or have a character tooled up with AP2 attached that is).

I'm thinking of giving the Sgt in the second assault squad a powerfist. The current one has a power axe.

It's the rest of the squad that doesn't really 'pull their weight' to me. Sure, they can gallop through the air at 12", but a meltagun and possibly a flamer doesn't really impress me. And it's not just the techmarine, either. last week I faced off against another DA army and used them to assault a squad of scouts. It took two whole turns (four rounds of CC) before my bespoke assault squad killed them all. WFT? I'd always had the impression that an assault squad is a great assault... well, squad.

I was using my Death Company against several other squads last night. But they never got into combat because my Devastators and my allies' Orks were doing such a fantastic job.

My plan for the assault squad is to have a Sgt with a Powerfist, possible a Plasma pistol or Inferno pistol if he can use it. And then include a Meltagun and hand flamer in the squad. Is there anything else I can add to make them more effective?

I don't use BA ASM. I use DC or Vanguards. For the exact reason you stated.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't use BA ASM. I use DC or Vanguards. For the exact reason you stated.

Fair enough.

Next on my 'to-buy' list.

One more question. What vehicles can BA marines assault from in the same turn as dismounting? Obviously, I presume a Land Raider is one such vehicle. What about a Razorback? I know they can't from a Rhino.

 Flugel Meister wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't use BA ASM. I use DC or Vanguards. For the exact reason you stated.

Fair enough.

Next on my 'to-buy' list.

One more question. What vehicles can BA marines assault from in the same turn as dismounting? Obviously, I presume a Land Raider is one such vehicle. What about a Razorback? I know they can't from a Rhino.

Land Raider or Stormraven. Nothing else. That's a big part of the problem with the list, actually. If you want to assault, you need to use jump troops. Who often get shot to pieces.

Yeah...the only use for BA assault squads is drop pod melta, and some have even stopped doing that.

Basically, BA are in a weird place because Assault is today's 40k is such an uphill struggle that their assault bonuses barely matter in most competitive games. So...what else do they have going for them? Fast tanks and transports is actually a pretty big deal, but pretty much none of our available formations have Fast Tanks in them. Where's the Baal Predator formation that gives some bonus we may or may not give a crap about? How about some formations that involve vindicators or normal preds?

GW really dropped the ball by not further supporting BAs Fast vehicles with additional rules. We'll buy the gak if you give us a reason to.

 Voidwraith wrote:
Yeah...the only use for BA assault squads is drop pod melta, and some have even stopped doing that.

Basically, BA are in a weird place because Assault is today's 40k is such an uphill struggle that their assault bonuses barely matter in most competitive games. So...what else do they have going for them? Fast tanks and transports is actually a pretty big deal, but pretty much none of our available formations have Fast Tanks in them. Where's the Baal Predator formation that gives some bonus we may or may not give a crap about? How about some formations that involve vindicators or normal preds?

GW really dropped the ball by not further supporting BAs Fast vehicles with additional rules. We'll buy the gak if you give us a reason to.

The drop melta thing frankly sucks, imo. You are paying a lot for three BS 4 melta shots. Against Ravenwing and Wave Serpents, etc, it's a total joke.

The problem with the powerfist Sarge is he has a good chance of getting punked in a challenge.

Its hard to make ASM more than bullies. Against other MEQs, with a 5man ASM squad, you'll want to soften the other squd first, and make sure you have a numbers advantage.

ASM have +1A/model over normal Marines, and a Jumppack. That means they can get there faster and fight noticeably better, but not outclass regular tacs. It comes down to 3A/model plus possibly a HoW vs 1A a model. For survivable units, like Tacs, you'll grind them down. But if its a Dev squad you charged into, it may take a few rounds to win, but they sure aren't shooting again.

Against other armies, there can often be better uses. Things like Artillery units, chasing a Skimmer, etc. Even against Orks, having an ASM squad assist when a Tac squad spoils the charge (by charging first when Orks get close) can have a large impact.

All that is for regular Marines. For BA, your assaults are even better. But ASM are still bullies.

If you want actual CC units things like Bikes or DC or Termies are what you're looking for. Or you can use ASM to escort an IC (although that isn't enough to consider it as a death star).

If the DA were using Devs as well, using ASM and Devs should be fine in your meta. After all, FC is better on Devs than Stubborn, easily.

Also, in a casual meta, 1-2 MG in an ASM said can do interesting g things. Good chance at slagging that Tech marine. An unreliable threat to any vehicle. Not as competitive as podded Melts, but it can do things.

Land Speeders with TML are good alternative to Devs. We have so many fasts slots, it wouldt be a problem running 6 single TML/heavy bolter speeders. At 75 points per model we are looking at 450 points for 12 ML shots and 18 heavy bolter shots.

Now BA speeders are not amazing, but we really have limited shooting options. ML's are good at hull pointing most mech, dealing with MC and the frag option combined with bolters make for great anti infantry.

The nice thing about TML speeders is mobility and range. If you really need to focus fire something it's much easier to do when most of your firepower has a 60" threat range. Just avoid squadrons at all costs. Also good for grabbing hard to reach objectives or linebreaker.

Martel732 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Yeah...the only use for BA assault squads is drop pod melta, and some have even stopped doing that.

Basically, BA are in a weird place because Assault is today's 40k is such an uphill struggle that their assault bonuses barely matter in most competitive games. So...what else do they have going for them? Fast tanks and transports is actually a pretty big deal, but pretty much none of our available formations have Fast Tanks in them. Where's the Baal Predator formation that gives some bonus we may or may not give a crap about? How about some formations that involve vindicators or normal preds?

GW really dropped the ball by not further supporting BAs Fast vehicles with additional rules. We'll buy the gak if you give us a reason to.

The drop melta thing frankly sucks, imo. You are paying a lot for three BS 4 melta shots. Against Ravenwing and Wave Serpents, etc, it's a total joke.

But against russes, rhinos, razorbacks, land raiders, monoliths, obelisks, and most importantly KNIGHTS it's pretty awesome.

Not since they changed the vehicle table.

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Yeah...the only use for BA assault squads is drop pod melta, and some have even stopped doing that.

Basically, BA are in a weird place because Assault is today's 40k is such an uphill struggle that their assault bonuses barely matter in most competitive games. So...what else do they have going for them? Fast tanks and transports is actually a pretty big deal, but pretty much none of our available formations have Fast Tanks in them. Where's the Baal Predator formation that gives some bonus we may or may not give a crap about? How about some formations that involve vindicators or normal preds?

GW really dropped the ball by not further supporting BAs Fast vehicles with additional rules. We'll buy the gak if you give us a reason to.

The drop melta thing frankly sucks, imo. You are paying a lot for three BS 4 melta shots. Against Ravenwing and Wave Serpents, etc, it's a total joke.

But against russes, rhinos, razorbacks, land raiders, monoliths, obelisks, and most importantly KNIGHTS it's pretty awesome.

Yeah, I take the melta option but don't heavily rely on it. If I drop a five man ASM squad with 2 melta options, there's no guarantee that I'll be killing anything. Three meltas would improve the odds.

It also depends on if you bring them to bear to Malta a vehicle, or if you bring them to bully, and the melts is just there to spook their vehicles.

Bharring wrote:
It also depends on if you bring them to bear to Malta a vehicle, or if you bring them to bully, and the melts is just there to spook their vehicles.

No one who is any good is spooked by meltas. Math, yo. Meltas have been defanged. The only real reason to take them is to pray for 5+ for Imperial knights. And you can assault after firing them. The fact that MCs just shrug off melta like it's nothing really hurts them too.

When facing top tier lists, that may be a good point.

*Both* of the DA players took Dev squads. IIRC, DA Dev squads get no benefit that actually helps them. That, along with many other things he's said, lead me to believe his meta is not bleeding edge competitiveness.

From what we know of his meta, there is good reason to believe things like Dev squads and Melta Guns will perform reasonably.

If every army he faced were IK and WK spam, what you say would be true. But he had his ASM locked in CC with a Techmarine who'd die quickly to Melta, and his Devs traded shots with their Devs.

It would be novel to even be able to contemplate putting one of my 16 devastator models on the table. I have them from back when they were decent.

As has already been mentioned by Bharring, the power fist isn't a particularly good weapon for the Assault squad Sgt. In a challenge, chances are he will be killed off with his single wound before he can swing it. I would only stick to weapons that he can swing at full initiative. For me, the powerfist works best on a model that is not a character and thus can be hidden in the unit or towards the back and not get challenged out. An example could be a veteran in a command squad.

Whenever I have fielded Assault marines, they have never really contributed much to the game and I've found them to be a bit of a let down. My Death Company always out perform them. Points are better spent on landspeeders, but that's just from my personal experience.

Have you considered bikers? I know other chapters do them a LOT better, but still. A biker squad with grav-guns might be a lot more effective than those assault marines.

I do have a powerfist tac sarge (vet) that I field all the time, but more for fluff reasons. It can kinda work if I have a Captain/CM in the unit that wants the Challenge.

All my powerfists are on DC models. My old 5th ed sergeants are all torn apart by now.

Meltas can be interesting if you have enough of them to get 2-3 penetrating hits - do that, and who cares if you get the kaboom or not, they're now down 2-3 hull points plus whatever you got on the damage chart. 3HP wrecks most vehicles.

Then again, I play Sisters, Dark Eldar, Eldar and Tau, who might be the only armies that can come down with meltas and get 2-3 pens.

The two meltas you can get on an ASM squad aren't that good if you're counting on one-shotting a tank, because you can't count on that anymore, but they're fine for fairly reliably removing hull points.

Who wants to need to get within melta range to HP strip? The vehicle paradigm in this game is so stupid.

I personally love it.

It forces you to get close to use it. So its not all about either sitting back and shooting or rushing forward and chopping.

And if you need to get close, sure Bikes may do it better, but ASM do it better than Tacs. I wish my ASM could take Malta.

But then, in my games, its fairly common for the average pen to matter (most of the damage chart has a debilitating effect).

Getting close is the devil in 7th ed. You can get close, but you take 80% casualties getting there.

Depends on which game you play. WK Gladius Tournyhammer, sure, a single MG on an ASM squad isn't doing much. But that doesn't sound like the Warhammer played in his local meta.