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 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
A better comparison would be Chimeras from the Inquisition codex versus their newer, inferior counterparts in the AM codex. The AM codex contains the most current rules for "Chimeras" but a Inquisition player could be forgiven for wanting to use rules as presented in the rules he bought.

Actually, inquisition players have to use the better version in C:I - they cannot use the C:AM version.

But Codex:AM is newer so it therefore replaces a unit in a different book. Or at least that is how I understand the argument.

No, because the C:I army has no access to that version of the unit.

If you're a C:IG player then you could correctly pull the shadowsword from the Apoc book, from Escalation, from multiple IA books or from Montka (and probably others I've forgotten). Of those many versions of the unit, which is the one that you're supposed to use?


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 CrownAxe wrote:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Forge_World_Lords_of_War_Choices_for_Warhammer_40,000_Escalation.pdf

From the linked doc: "along with the publication in which the model’s most up to date rules can be found."

So apparently FW think that it does matter when a newer version of the unit is published.

Well this thread has done nothing more than make me even more confused

@War Kitten: Yes it is That SM playing friend

@Charistoph: I was not using the Montka formation. It would be kind of hard too considering that the Shadowsword is my only SH

@the rest of you: I am now completely confused as to what to do with my tank. The IA rules are still in print and have not been updated (baring the 6th edition errata) and are therefore legal by GW's own wording but at the same time there are now three different rulesets for the same tank. I possess the IA rules for it and use them but now I may have to acquire a new book.... Can we please decide on which book I have to purchase? Seeing as the kit cost me a lot and the books are all pricey I would like to know for certain which one to get.

Also here is the scenario: We where playing a 2425 point game. My opponent had brought 30K Iron Warriors including the Primarch and a lot of anti tank Land Raider Terminus ultra and a Las Pred. I had my usual seven tank Guard list plus my Shadow Sword which I had given the Command Tank upgrade too (25 points for a 24" reroll failed LD check bubble).
However someone else was there and they had the Apocalypse book which my friend had been looking at as well. The only difference baring a 5 point increase was that the Command Tank upgrade now cost 200 points and made the LoW a HQ unit as well as a LoW unit.
And this is where the disagreement rose from. I was using the IA rule set for my tank, it being the only one that I have but my friend wanted me to use the 200 point command tank upgrade and drop 200 points worth of stuff from my list. As it was we played through with the IA rules because I didnt have the Apoc rules but afterwards my opponent messaged me and told me that I had to use the Apoc rules. As it is both are legal from GW's standpoint so I am utterly confused....

And you guys have not helped either!

 oldzoggy wrote:
necron player might just fancy the escalation version of their c'tan...

Muahahaha. If only I could use my now useless Escalation book.

You see, because I have to use the datasheet in the codex. You see, because it's the most updated set of printed rules.

So you see, I'd agree. You must use the newest, as it is only fair.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well this thread has done nothing more than make me even more confused

@War Kitten: Yes it is That SM playing friend

@Charistoph: I was not using the Montka formation. It would be kind of hard too considering that the Shadowsword is my only SH

@the rest of you: I am now completely confused as to what to do with my tank. The IA rules are still in print and have not been updated (baring the 6th edition errata) and are therefore legal by GW's own wording but at the same time there are now three different rulesets for the same tank. I possess the IA rules for it and use them but now I may have to acquire a new book.... Can we please decide on which book I have to purchase? Seeing as the kit cost me a lot and the books are all pricey I would like to know for certain which one to get.

Also here is the scenario: We where playing a 2425 point game. My opponent had brought 30K Iron Warriors including the Primarch and a lot of anti tank Land Raider Terminus ultra and a Las Pred. I had my usual seven tank Guard list plus my Shadow Sword which I had given the Command Tank upgrade too (25 points for a 24" reroll failed LD check bubble).
However someone else was there and they had the Apocalypse book which my friend had been looking at as well. The only difference baring a 5 point increase was that the Command Tank upgrade now cost 200 points and made the LoW a HQ unit as well as a LoW unit.
And this is where the disagreement rose from. I was using the IA rule set for my tank, it being the only one that I have but my friend wanted me to use the 200 point command tank upgrade and drop 200 points worth of stuff from my list. As it was we played through with the IA rules because I didnt have the Apoc rules but afterwards my opponent messaged me and told me that I had to use the Apoc rules. As it is both are legal from GW's standpoint so I am utterly confused....

And you guys have not helped either!

As has been said multiple times in this thread, the default community expectation is that you should use the most recent, up-to-date rules for your models. In the case of the Shadowsword, the most recent, up-to-date rules are included in Warzone Damocles: Mont'ka. If you wish to remain up-to-date, you will periodically have to purchase new rule books.

I'm also kind of confused as to what game you were playing. Were you playing standard Warhammer 40k? I'm not super up on the Horus Heresy/30k game, but my understanding was that things like the Primarchs couldn't be used in standard 40k. I might be wrong.

 Kriswall wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well this thread has done nothing more than make me even more confused

@War Kitten: Yes it is That SM playing friend

@Charistoph: I was not using the Montka formation. It would be kind of hard too considering that the Shadowsword is my only SH

@the rest of you: I am now completely confused as to what to do with my tank. The IA rules are still in print and have not been updated (baring the 6th edition errata) and are therefore legal by GW's own wording but at the same time there are now three different rulesets for the same tank. I possess the IA rules for it and use them but now I may have to acquire a new book.... Can we please decide on which book I have to purchase? Seeing as the kit cost me a lot and the books are all pricey I would like to know for certain which one to get.

Also here is the scenario: We where playing a 2425 point game. My opponent had brought 30K Iron Warriors including the Primarch and a lot of anti tank Land Raider Terminus ultra and a Las Pred. I had my usual seven tank Guard list plus my Shadow Sword which I had given the Command Tank upgrade too (25 points for a 24" reroll failed LD check bubble).
However someone else was there and they had the Apocalypse book which my friend had been looking at as well. The only difference baring a 5 point increase was that the Command Tank upgrade now cost 200 points and made the LoW a HQ unit as well as a LoW unit.
And this is where the disagreement rose from. I was using the IA rule set for my tank, it being the only one that I have but my friend wanted me to use the 200 point command tank upgrade and drop 200 points worth of stuff from my list. As it was we played through with the IA rules because I didnt have the Apoc rules but afterwards my opponent messaged me and told me that I had to use the Apoc rules. As it is both are legal from GW's standpoint so I am utterly confused....

And you guys have not helped either!

As has been said multiple times in this thread, the default community expectation is that you should use the most recent, up-to-date rules for your models. In the case of the Shadowsword, the most recent, up-to-date rules are included in Warzone Damocles: Mont'ka. If you wish to remain up-to-date, you will periodically have to purchase new rule books.

I'm also kind of confused as to what game you were playing. Were you playing standard Warhammer 40k? I'm not super up on the Horus Heresy/30k game, but my understanding was that things like the Primarchs couldn't be used in standard 40k. I might be wrong.

Primarchs are just a LoW choice. The only stipulations are not below 2k points and cannot be more than 25% of your armies points. So that was legal.

The terminus ultra is not a legal choice for any 30k faction.

I would just get the newest book and rules to play your model.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Also here is the scenario: We where playing a 2425 point game. My opponent had brought 30K Iron Warriors including the Primarch and a lot of anti tank Land Raider Terminus ultra and a Las Pred. I had my usual seven tank Guard list plus my Shadow Sword which I had given the Command Tank upgrade too (25 points for a 24" reroll failed LD check bubble).

Whoa. A Terminus Ultra? A tank who's only current rules are as part of an apoc formation including a UM special character and five other tanks?

Since he cannot include a UM apoc formation in a 30K IW army he must have been using a VERY out of date version of the rules (i.e. the datasheet that is now unavailable) and even then I'd be dubious about including 40K Apoc units in a 30K army. A bitchslap for hypocrisy would seem to be in order.

30k rules allow you to pull Imperial units from other Imperial Armour books from 40k including IA Apocalypse for use in 30k, however the terminus ultra was a GW apocalypse unit that A. Nor Longer has rules, and B. Nor longer has a Kit available, as GW stopped Producing the Terminus Ultra upgrade sprue about a year ago.

So if he expects you to let him use an illegal unit, you can use legal alternate rules for a Proxy ForgeWorld Shadow Sword.

beast_gts wrote:
Most tournaments will check your list in advance, and highlight any 'errors'. Several, including ITC, will list which version of the rules to use - the ITC rules are here.


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This is their Imperial Armor Unit Index.

Oh, Irony! This lists Escalation as the most recent publication for the Shadowsword!


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 CrownAxe wrote:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Forge_World_Lords_of_War_Choices_for_Warhammer_40,000_Escalation.pdf

Also Escalation for the Shadowsword!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

beast_gts wrote:
Generally you use the most recent book, which for the Shadowsword is War Zone Damocles: Mont'Ka.

Agreed! But even FW and the ITC haven't updated their stuff, yet.

 master of ordinance wrote:

However someone else was there and they had the Apocalypse book which my friend had been looking at as well. The only difference baring a 5 point increase was that the Command Tank upgrade now cost 200 points and made the LoW a HQ unit as well as a LoW unit.
And this is where the disagreement rose from. I was using the IA rule set for my tank, it being the only one that I have but my friend wanted me to use the 200 point command tank upgrade and drop 200 points worth of stuff from my list. As it was we played through with the IA rules because I didnt have the Apoc rules but afterwards my opponent messaged me and told me that I had to use the Apoc rules. As it is both are legal from GW's standpoint so I am utterly confused....

And you guys have not helped either!

You need to check the differences again. The Imperial Armour 1: Second Edition Shadowsword comes with the Sponsons for free, and has the ability to swap out the Sponsons for AV14 side armour. All the subsequent rules for the Shadowsword make you pay for the Sponsons, and the upgrade for AV14 sides is absent, while the Apocalypse version has some additional upgrades available that Escalation/Mont'ka don't have. Imperial Armour 1: Second Edition (2012) is the odd one out in terms of rules compared to Apocalypse (2013), Escalation (2013), Mont'ka (2015) and Supplement Cadia (2016). I think its pretty clear which is the most up-to-date rules.

The Command Tank upgrade in Apocalypse btw is a completely different thing from the Imperial Armour 1 upgrade of the same name. It lets you do special Apocalypse stuff. The Imperial Armour 1 upgrade is a morale buff for surrounding units. You shouldn't be looking at Apocalypse for regular games anyway, since everything in there has extra rules to be used in Apocalypse games. Though the fact that the base Shadowsword is the same base rules/points as Escalation/Mont'ka just goes to show that GW have clearly decided on what the unit's rules and points are.

Also, you can buy the digital version of the Cadian Supplement from Black Library, which has all the new Imperial Guard stuff from Mont'ka as well as the Steel Host formation from Sanctus Reach, for a fraction of the cost of the full Mont'ka book.

The argument that the latest version of the rules is the rules et you use doesn't really work with IA. If that were the case when C:IG was the latest, then IA1.2 came out everyone would have been forced to run out and purchase IA1.2 in order to be up to date. IA 1.2 has Manticore Batteries that can be taken by C:IG (per the FAQS this now means C:Astra Military) as a heavy support choice. The point cost is a bit less on those manticores as well. This was not a standard unit composition in either C:IG or C:AM. So in a very technical way, following the change of release, FAQs, and Errata these can still be taken as a 3 vehicle battery at the point cost listed in IA1.2.

This is one of many, many problems I have with GW and FW. They are the same damn company but do not work together for a better player experience, they both simply try to grab as much dough as they can and then rewrite rules to make you go out and buy new models. I get it, I think we all do, they are in business to make money, but it is getting stupid silly.

For example, I shelled out a few hundred bucks for Skitarii when they first came out. Now there is the Start Collecting BS that comes with another formation, so to use that formation I have to shell out another $85? I think not.

If it is a currently sold book, and you own a copy, use it. If you have Escalation and not Mont ka, use escalation. My argument is this: so long as it is currently being produced, use what you have. Sometimes it is a boon sometimes a detriment.

If you want to play with the shadowsword from IA1.2 I say go ahead, it is current production and you have the option of using it. Ifyou want to run the Manticore Battery? Go ahead. This hobby is supposed to be for YOUR enjoyment and you invested substantial sums into that enjoyment. If your opponent doesn't get that, he has the option to not play.

One can easily chalk up using concurrent production unit rules as being from different worlds, IE Mont Ka Shadowsword is from a Forge world close to Damecles and uses a different STC. This also would account for the point cost differences.
REMEMBER Warhammer 40,000 is meant to be a narrative game not a competitive game. GW'S words.